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The Diamond

The diamond- turd or gem?


  • Total voters
    203

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
If Poch is becoming deluded the job of his assistant coaches is to point it out and look at it impartially. Surely if Perez and co thought it was bad they would tell him?
I think that’s part of the problem. They’ve been working too closely together for over a decade together. You see the way that Jesus and Toni look at Poch in interviews, it’s almost like he’s their big brother who they love and want to be like.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
If Poch is becoming deluded the job of his assistant coaches is to point it out and look at it impartially. Surely if Perez and co thought it was bad they would tell him?
I think that’s part of the problem. They’ve been working too closely for over a decade together. You see the way that Jesus and Toni look at Poch in interviews, it’s almost like he’s their big brother who they love and want to be like.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,391
If Poch is becoming deluded the job of his assistant coaches is to point it out and look at it impartially. Surely if Perez and co thought it was bad they would tell him?


You'd think so since their jobs are on the line as well.
 

Danny1

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
5,622
17,169
The diamond clearly doesnt work for us. We have always been a better team when playing 5-2-2-1 or the 4-2-3-1. However, all of our success has come due to a strong midfield presence. Under Poch we have had Dembele, Dier & Wanyama all play at varying points who were all incredibly strong at good when it came to reading the game from a defensive point of view.

We now have Winks & Sissoko who are very naive from a defensive point of view & react to things instead of anticipating them. Ndombele could well be the best midfielder of all of those listed, however he will only become that player with a defensive shield next to him. Dembele is gone, Wanyama is unfortunately crocked but we have Eric Dier sat on the bench probably wondering what needs to happen for him to get a game.

Dier (or any other DM) allows our full backs to move forward knowing that our defence essentially becomes a 3 CB team, and with the 3 it enables 2 of them to cover for when the FBs go forward. Had this been the case against Bayern then I believe 3 of their goals would not have been scored.

Unfortunately for both Winks & Sissoko, for me, neither are strong enough or clever enough to be the answer for us going forward. Both are good squad players but until we have a strong midfield we simply wont be a successful side.
 

dimiSpur

There's always next year...
Aug 9, 2008
5,844
6,750
I think Poch and Son voted gem.

To have a chance at success with a diamond formation, you need:

1) Attacking, fit and agile full backs - We have a clown in Aurier and Rose who is coming to the end of his career and it shows in his inconsistency
2) A stalwart DM, capable of plugging holes - We have Winks who creates holes by chasing after men out wide.
3) A strong pressing game - We press at times but seem to drop off after a while.
4) Incredible fitness levels in midfield - Ties in with the 4th requirement. We were knackered after 30 mins against Bayern. Even if you do achieve the required fitness levels to play with the intensity needed in midfield for 60 minutes, you cannot possibly do that twice a week, which is the fixture list we face.

So all in all, whilst I want Poch to remain and sort this mess out, he needs to do exactly that. Sort out the formation. The diamond is crap.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
Dier was such an important player in the 4-2-3-1 as your treble exclamation highlights. I think it's very notable how much his own game fell apart, obviously much due to injury but also our formation change since. He kept things nice and simple, was rarely caught out upfield and could slot into a back three when the fullbacks were high up the pitch.
Spot on mate. I don’t think he’s the best player in the world but he and or wanyama were crucial parts to our team when we were at our best, not sure why poch ever moved away from that.
 

rio bryan

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2006
547
350
So the diamond formation shows up our defensive frailties, but we don't seem to be gaining from having two up top with a ten behind as i take it this should be one of the advantages of the formation ?
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Actually thinking about it we can play the diamond against smaller teams and bus parkers, it's when we come up against teams with superb full backs or big teams we will really struggle.
 

Matrix

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
2,923
5,679
I don't think any team plays a diamond formations these days do they? I certainly can't think of any personnel who could come in and make it work...

From what I remember, Inter used to play with a diamond when they had Adriano, Ibra, Cambiasso, Zanetti, Maicon, Figo, Viera, Stankovic.

You can see they definitely had the players to play a diamond and control games. We are no where near that!
 

onthetwo

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2006
4,583
3,407
The more I think about it, the more baffled I am by Poch's decision to deploy the diamond last night. Bayern are famous for playing with width, with rapid operators like Gnabry and Coman - it was tactical suicide. I can't fathom how Poch couldn't have seen where the diamond might have struggled.

If we play this formation against Liverpool, they could put a similar number past us.
Spot on. If we get walloped at Anfield id expect Levy to get twitchy
 

Matrix

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
2,923
5,679
He supposedly played it with Porto before joining Chelsea, but he never played it with Chelsea.


It worked for Liverpool a few seasons ago, and we've had some good performances over the years, but in general it's been bad for us. Poch has had an obsession for the last two seasons of trying to get two up front, whether it be the diamond or 352. Neither have been good for us. I'd love us to go back to 3421 for a couple of months, but I don't see that happening. 4231 is probably the most likely scenario. I don't think we're playing that well either, but it's the best of the likely formations.
Cant figure out his obsession with shoe horning 2 upfront. We were far deadlier with Kane up top and. Dele, Eriksen/Lamela and Son the 3 behind interchanging. It was very fluid in the movement and could turn into a midfield 5 when defending.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
4,000
18,943
Just posted this in the Poch thread but then saw this one, which is more appropriate:

So yesterday I went back and looked through most of our Premier League fixtures from last season.

He used it first against Utd at OT, with Dier DM. Now we won the match 3-0, we were unusually clinical and that probably made Poch think this is the system to use but I remember that game and we were not 3 goals better.

He then reverted back to our usual shape but went back to the diamond against Liverpool at home in mid September, which we lost 2-1. He reverted to 4-2-3-1 for the following game away to Brighton, which we won.

He brought back the diamond at home to Chelsea in late November. To me this is the only game where it really worked and biggest reason was we caught Chelsea off guard and swarmed Jorginho. We won 3-1 but should have won by more. Interesting to note that Dier was DM in this diamond so we had a bit more security about us, our diamond was Dier, Sissoko, Eriksen, Alli behind Kane and Son.

He then kept the diamond for following match, away to Scum. We lost 4-2 and to be blunt we got battered and didn't deserve anything despite leading at one point.

Didn't use the diamond again until away to Everton with no DM. We win 6-2. We were extremely clinical going forward but those who remember this game will know we went behind early and always looked vulnerable defensively. Luckily for us Everton were worse.

The first time he used the diamond against 'lesser' opponents was Wolves at home. He decided to use the diamond again with no DM. We lose 3-2 and get battered second half.

Also played the diamond at home to Man Utd and at half time we are losing 1-0, having played very poorly. We switch to 4-2-3-1 and proceed to dominate the second half but we can't find a goal and De Gea is unbelievable.

We used the diamond at home to Leicester, where we somehow beat them 3-1 despite them being superior to us.

A couple of games later we use the diamond again, this time away to Saints. We lose 2-1.

Away to Pool we use 3 atb and change it up at halftime to the diamond but we still lose 2-1.

The next time we use the diamond is at home to West Ham and we lose 1-0.

We used the diamond at home to Villa this season. We were losing until we changed to 4-2-3-1 at half time which brought about our comeback.


There is a clear correlation when looking at our bad form over the past 10/11 months and its ever since we stopped consistently playing our balanced 4-2-3-1 and started playing this diamond (or 3 atb which no longer works for us either).

As far as I could see, the only clean sheet we have kept with the diamond was the very first time we used it, away at OT.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
From what I remember, Inter used to play with a diamond when they had Adriano, Ibra, Cambiasso, Zanetti, Maicon, Figo, Viera, Stankovic.

You can see they definitely had the players to play a diamond and control games. We are no where near that!

As I mentioned before it was more popular back then because full backs weren't so brave to play high up the pitch to create 2v1's. If you look at the average position of full backs now they're in line with midfielders and playing as wingers which almost inevitably pushes your 2cms wide to deal with the threat.

It's no wonder we've look 2nd best when we've played the likes of Liverpool, Bayern Man City, Dortmund because they have intelligent modern day full backs who really expose teams.

Having said that we played Everton using it and really destroyed them, it does work but I think we need to pick and choose when we use it.
 

OPModric

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2010
1,100
2,448
Fair enough, but let's caveat that by saying that that's four of the best players to have played the game there.

Agree. I want us to play 4231. I didn't like three at the back (after we sold Walker) and not the diamond either.
 

werty

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2005
25,074
26,310
Cant figure out his obsession with shoe horning 2 upfront. We were far deadlier with Kane up top and. Dele, Eriksen/Lamela and Son the 3 behind interchanging. It was very fluid in the movement and could turn into a midfield 5 when defending.
I agree. I think Kane is better off up front on his own. Lucas doesn't play well with him or anyone else for that matter. None of the No.10s, bar maybe Lamela, have played well behind any of the two. Son is about the only player who plays to or above his standard, but too many suffer to make it worth it.

I don't think we're playing 4231 well either because too often it becomes 424 when we're defending and we have problems with it offensively, but it's still better than the diamond.
 

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
31,261
21,760

Sissoko supposedly has said doesn’t like diamond either...

Surely Poch has gotta drop it now or he is going to look incredibly stupid if we keep losing using it.

And SURELY one of the journalists can actually probe him with this question rather than the usual boring crap they ask?
 
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Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
2,685
4,500
Our defence at the moment needs protecting, ie 2 in front of it. Dier and Winks.We will have to go back to 4-2-3-1.
 

JayB

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2011
6,652
26,046
The quotes from Sissoko is very telling and surprised how underplayed it is in here to all the diamond haters

He pretty much said he hates it and it's not working
Agreed, I can't believe it hasn't been a bigger topic of discussion. It's exceedingly rare for a player to critique the manager's tactics so explicitly in the media. When the fittest player at the club is publicly saying that the players can't cope with the physical demands it speaks volumes.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
For the Diamond to work you need athletic quick players that can win individual battles for 25-30 minutes we played superb attacking football against BM then ran out of steam ( the rest was A Nightmare on Elm Street) we have snail pace CB, A keeper that doesn't come off his line anymore and isn't good with his feet. Full backs just not good enough....

With the right players a diamond is a very good system
 
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