npearl4spurs
Believing Member
- Sep 9, 2014
- 4,252
- 11,118
To Dare is to Do but I don't think the motto covers daring/tempting Murphy's Law over our CB situation
The Deadline Day ITK Discussion Thread - 1st September
- Thread starter Archibald&Crooks
- Start date
- Status
Nerine
Juicy corned beef
- Jan 27, 2011
- 4,764
- 17,263
I think some of the schizophrenia comes from the fact that by and large everyone is really pleased with (and likes) Ange a lot.
That's great.
The fear and frothing and furore kicks in when we hear that DanielCoys is potentially (already) at odds with a really well-liked manager in terms of how we're conducting our business.
If it had been Nuno Mk2 at the helm, I don't think many people would give a fuck.
As it stands, Ange is fucking mega, so the hubbub amplifies based on us clinging on to him for all it's worth right now.
That's great.
The fear and frothing and furore kicks in when we hear that DanielCoys is potentially (already) at odds with a really well-liked manager in terms of how we're conducting our business.
If it had been Nuno Mk2 at the helm, I don't think many people would give a fuck.
As it stands, Ange is fucking mega, so the hubbub amplifies based on us clinging on to him for all it's worth right now.
robbiedee
Mama said knock you out
- Jul 6, 2012
- 2,722
- 7,534
I know it's been said a lot, but thanks to all the ITK's on here - much appreciated.
Overall I'm pretty happy with our business this summer. I think this is helped by the style of football we've seen (Fulham being the exception). If we can stay relatively injury free until January, I think we could be in for a treat.
I'll donate at the end of the month, was going to this month but my lad is starting Uni next week and I feel like I've been raped by the money monster!
Remember the words of leading Football Pundit Paul Merson 'Without Kane, Spurs will struggle to get top half this season...I can't see where their goals are going to come from'.
COYS
Overall I'm pretty happy with our business this summer. I think this is helped by the style of football we've seen (Fulham being the exception). If we can stay relatively injury free until January, I think we could be in for a treat.
I'll donate at the end of the month, was going to this month but my lad is starting Uni next week and I feel like I've been raped by the money monster!
Remember the words of leading Football Pundit Paul Merson 'Without Kane, Spurs will struggle to get top half this season...I can't see where their goals are going to come from'.
COYS
Darrkespur
Resident scientist
- Jun 8, 2003
- 2,510
- 1,998
According to the (really well written) Athletic article about him a few years ago we first approached Internacional for him in 2011, so not quite 30, but still 12 years ago.... https://theathletic.com/1320827/201...transfer-rumours-leandro-damiao-to-tottenham/
coysjod
Well-Known Member
- Feb 18, 2011
- 1,438
- 4,229
Wig
Well-Known Member
- May 23, 2018
- 2,829
- 11,155
Interesting that it was the left side that Ange felt needed improvement when he's played Davies at LCB a few times. Whereas if Romero gets injured / suspended we don't have a lot of back-up there... who even is our RCB these days - Dier, Phillips or Royal?
- Feb 1, 2005
- 55,605
- 205,197
- Thread starter
- Admin
- #2,328
By 'people' I assume you mean ITK
Ideally, they could be more considered and clear but to be honest, even if they were crystal clear, someone would read something into it that isn't there. We have seen this many times. The issue isn't so much what they post although granted sometimes it could be better, it's people taking it as gospel or too literally, that's not on any ITK, that's on them..
Saying he was 'raging' is inflammatory. For about two seconds until you reach the next words "I suspect that was hyperbole' or something along those lines, yet people latch on to that word and kick off.
Fuck me, one post later someone, like Sherlock Holmes revealing the perp, said that it was hyperbole. So tell me people didn't ignore what Rob said.
There's your problem.
Last edited:
hughy
I'm SUPER cereal.
- Nov 18, 2007
- 31,922
- 57,124
Baffles me the amount of people on here who still do.
Led's Zeppelin
Can't Re Member
- May 28, 2013
- 7,354
- 20,227
Possibly part of the problem is that lots of people assume that if Ange is unhappy, it must mean he is blaming someone, and if he’s blaming someone it must of course be Levy.
But it’s perfectly possible that he could be really upset that we don’t have extra cover at CB without making the leap that so many of us do.
But this, like so much else here, is speculation.
ITK people give us the benefit of what they know. And that’s a great service and of great interest to us all.
But no one knows everything. They certainly don’t pretend to. That are usually very clear about that.
No one knows all the reasons behind all the decisions and all the outcomes, tempting though it often is to believe we do just because we feel so strongly about it.
But it’s perfectly possible that he could be really upset that we don’t have extra cover at CB without making the leap that so many of us do.
But this, like so much else here, is speculation.
ITK people give us the benefit of what they know. And that’s a great service and of great interest to us all.
But no one knows everything. They certainly don’t pretend to. That are usually very clear about that.
No one knows all the reasons behind all the decisions and all the outcomes, tempting though it often is to believe we do just because we feel so strongly about it.
Gbspurs
Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
- Jan 27, 2011
- 26,971
- 61,861
Maybe it's more that the players were hoping for other destinations but when the window closed they were left with Turkey or nothing?
Guernman
Well-Known Member
- Aug 24, 2013
- 1,520
- 7,869
There is Ange not happy at the overall situation and then there is Ange raging at Levy. There is no doubt in my mind that the anti-Levy sentiment which is pretty prevalent will be tainting information as it is passed from one source to the next.
Personally, I don't believe that Ange and Levy were not communicating at every step throughout this window, so that decisions such as pulling the plug on Fati, or letting Sanchez go were agreed upon between the two before they actually transpired. I also don't believe that Ange will be revealing to anyone, not least our sources, exactly how he really feels about this window, or his own interactions with his boss. He's not stupid, he is very realistic and highly pragmatic and at this stage both Levy and he will be on their best behaviour with each other and when discussing each other to other parties. My point is, if he really was raging at Levy, we would not be privy to that information.
At the same time, I take with a huge pinch of salt that tired declaration, don't worry Ange signed off on this or that. We know that he wanted another CB, we know that he would have obviously preferred Sanchez to stay as back-up, but he would have been constantly presented with scenarios where he has to choose between a rock and a hard place. Do we keep Sanchez as cover or do we take the risk of injury to let him go, increase your January budget for another CB and have the spot free in advance to further our chances of getting said CB? etc, etc... The player's own preferences are another important variable out of their control of course.
The reality of a transfer window is that you will never get what you want, and every party needs to compromise. There is though, an inherent conflict between Levy managing the finances and Ange desiring all the players he needs. We all know he has been left short, but from what he has said, he is not necessarily blaming Levy.
Having said that, he has made it clear that he is relatively happy only in the context of their managing this window without a DoF. So there were certainly issues behind the scenes with regards how smoothly negotiations operated or other aspects etc which he wants to see avoided in the future.
Personally I think that the notion of Postecoglou openly raging at Levy right now are absurd. He is way too smart. There is a dance between the two, an ongoing negotiation and manipulation. Every set-back or frustration in this window would have been presented to Ange in a way where it was a reasonable compromise or a Sophie's choice. He has spoken with refreshing honesty and pragmatism about the realities and challenges of transfer windows, so I would be amazed if there was anything that Levy did which would have left him raging.
BUT
There would also have been trends, concerns, small alarm bells I'm sure. Because Levy will priortise monetary concerns over football concerns, he will make a negotiation that little bit more akward than it needs to be, interfere when he shouldn't. And there will be only so many times a certain, perfectly reasonable, explanation or excuse will be taken at completely face value. The insistence that a DoF will be in place before the next window was indication enough that Postecoglou sees the whole picture and what needs to be improved. But he is smart enough to know he isn't more likely to get what he wants by raging openly at his boss.
Personally, I don't believe that Ange and Levy were not communicating at every step throughout this window, so that decisions such as pulling the plug on Fati, or letting Sanchez go were agreed upon between the two before they actually transpired. I also don't believe that Ange will be revealing to anyone, not least our sources, exactly how he really feels about this window, or his own interactions with his boss. He's not stupid, he is very realistic and highly pragmatic and at this stage both Levy and he will be on their best behaviour with each other and when discussing each other to other parties. My point is, if he really was raging at Levy, we would not be privy to that information.
At the same time, I take with a huge pinch of salt that tired declaration, don't worry Ange signed off on this or that. We know that he wanted another CB, we know that he would have obviously preferred Sanchez to stay as back-up, but he would have been constantly presented with scenarios where he has to choose between a rock and a hard place. Do we keep Sanchez as cover or do we take the risk of injury to let him go, increase your January budget for another CB and have the spot free in advance to further our chances of getting said CB? etc, etc... The player's own preferences are another important variable out of their control of course.
The reality of a transfer window is that you will never get what you want, and every party needs to compromise. There is though, an inherent conflict between Levy managing the finances and Ange desiring all the players he needs. We all know he has been left short, but from what he has said, he is not necessarily blaming Levy.
Having said that, he has made it clear that he is relatively happy only in the context of their managing this window without a DoF. So there were certainly issues behind the scenes with regards how smoothly negotiations operated or other aspects etc which he wants to see avoided in the future.
Personally I think that the notion of Postecoglou openly raging at Levy right now are absurd. He is way too smart. There is a dance between the two, an ongoing negotiation and manipulation. Every set-back or frustration in this window would have been presented to Ange in a way where it was a reasonable compromise or a Sophie's choice. He has spoken with refreshing honesty and pragmatism about the realities and challenges of transfer windows, so I would be amazed if there was anything that Levy did which would have left him raging.
BUT
There would also have been trends, concerns, small alarm bells I'm sure. Because Levy will priortise monetary concerns over football concerns, he will make a negotiation that little bit more akward than it needs to be, interfere when he shouldn't. And there will be only so many times a certain, perfectly reasonable, explanation or excuse will be taken at completely face value. The insistence that a DoF will be in place before the next window was indication enough that Postecoglou sees the whole picture and what needs to be improved. But he is smart enough to know he isn't more likely to get what he wants by raging openly at his boss.
WiganSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 16,010
- 32,750
I'm not surprised he's not happy. But I am at the same time fairly surprised that he didn't veto Sanchez leaving. Perhaps Levy has promised him it'll guarantee us moving for someone in January, who knows. Levy does tend to move for players once he gets players out the door, the issue is he's so bad at getting rid of players permanently and in a timely manner.
But throwing in Dorrington & Phillips is not the way to go. They need to be eased in as the risk is that if they make a couple of errors that it breaks their confidence.
I think the way Ange should play it now is to give both these lads some exposure from the bench when we're comfortably ahead in a game. That also allows us to manage VDV & Romero. Then at least if they do end up having to start then they'll have picked up at least a bit of experience.
If VDV picks up an injury, then we still have Davies to fill in for now. I'm not too sure when Sessegnon is back either but that could help us a bit in that regard.
But throwing in Dorrington & Phillips is not the way to go. They need to be eased in as the risk is that if they make a couple of errors that it breaks their confidence.
I think the way Ange should play it now is to give both these lads some exposure from the bench when we're comfortably ahead in a game. That also allows us to manage VDV & Romero. Then at least if they do end up having to start then they'll have picked up at least a bit of experience.
If VDV picks up an injury, then we still have Davies to fill in for now. I'm not too sure when Sessegnon is back either but that could help us a bit in that regard.
wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
- 13,603
- 58,005
I don't think you need ITK to be concerned about Ange being unhappy transfers. I think this is easier to explain that we're doing well.
We had Poch, he became unhappy with transfer dealings with the club. He Spoke about it, he then lost that energy he had, his relationship with the squad deteriated and he was sacked.
We had Jose, he came in with a lot of enthusiasm and energy. He was unhappy with the club, I can't remember the specifics to say objectively it was transfers, he did speak about Levy and about Transfers but he lost his energy, went into himself, fell out with the players and he was sacked.
We Had Conte who, whether you appreciate his style or not, he came in and did the job didn't he? He was then unhappy with the transfers, lost his energy, fell out with board, fell out with team and he was sacked.
Now we can get side tracked about extenuating factors in each case, we can squabble over being the right fit for the club and this and that. Personally I think that's pointless, the key point is, there has been a pattern of manager, disillusion with the club, falling out team team, results falling off a cliff and manager sacked. You do not need any ITK to see that and so it is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion for people to be concerned with Ange being unhappy when he has given us what we've been craving recently, which is hope. Hope that we might actually still have a chance of seeing our team do something.
My feelings regarding hiring Conte and Jose are, we knew who they were, they are people who like to be in control and they want the variables to be picked by them because they believe it's their best chance to succeed. Levy is the same, the clash was obvious, I think we all hoped that Levy being in awe of these managers would cede control, he didn't. I think then, if the fans aren't willing to stop buying tickets and memberships, is to accept the Levy of it all and thankfully Levy himself has, he hired a manager who fits who he is a lot better.
What we have to be aware of though is, Ange is a human being, he is a human being who will be judged harshly by Spurs fans if and when thing's go wrong. We've already seen an overreaction in the cup. Our fans seemingly want to avoid any discomfort, whilst simultaneously getting over excited by any rays of light. My opinion is temper them so excitement stays at hope and not expectation. However to get back to my point of Ange being a human who will be judged. It is human nature to want to control as many variables as possible when it is you, your reputation, your job on the line. There will be a point where the tension will hit, either through difficulty (as with Jose, Conte) or through us being close to getting an achievement over the line (As with Poch) where Ange will want control over the variables, most likely personnel. If Levy does not cede in that moment, regardless of what the decision is and what we think (such as not rating Adama Traore or signing Zaniolo), Ange will go the way of the other managers in his enthusiasm.
We had Poch, he became unhappy with transfer dealings with the club. He Spoke about it, he then lost that energy he had, his relationship with the squad deteriated and he was sacked.
We had Jose, he came in with a lot of enthusiasm and energy. He was unhappy with the club, I can't remember the specifics to say objectively it was transfers, he did speak about Levy and about Transfers but he lost his energy, went into himself, fell out with the players and he was sacked.
We Had Conte who, whether you appreciate his style or not, he came in and did the job didn't he? He was then unhappy with the transfers, lost his energy, fell out with board, fell out with team and he was sacked.
Now we can get side tracked about extenuating factors in each case, we can squabble over being the right fit for the club and this and that. Personally I think that's pointless, the key point is, there has been a pattern of manager, disillusion with the club, falling out team team, results falling off a cliff and manager sacked. You do not need any ITK to see that and so it is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion for people to be concerned with Ange being unhappy when he has given us what we've been craving recently, which is hope. Hope that we might actually still have a chance of seeing our team do something.
My feelings regarding hiring Conte and Jose are, we knew who they were, they are people who like to be in control and they want the variables to be picked by them because they believe it's their best chance to succeed. Levy is the same, the clash was obvious, I think we all hoped that Levy being in awe of these managers would cede control, he didn't. I think then, if the fans aren't willing to stop buying tickets and memberships, is to accept the Levy of it all and thankfully Levy himself has, he hired a manager who fits who he is a lot better.
What we have to be aware of though is, Ange is a human being, he is a human being who will be judged harshly by Spurs fans if and when thing's go wrong. We've already seen an overreaction in the cup. Our fans seemingly want to avoid any discomfort, whilst simultaneously getting over excited by any rays of light. My opinion is temper them so excitement stays at hope and not expectation. However to get back to my point of Ange being a human who will be judged. It is human nature to want to control as many variables as possible when it is you, your reputation, your job on the line. There will be a point where the tension will hit, either through difficulty (as with Jose, Conte) or through us being close to getting an achievement over the line (As with Poch) where Ange will want control over the variables, most likely personnel. If Levy does not cede in that moment, regardless of what the decision is and what we think (such as not rating Adama Traore or signing Zaniolo), Ange will go the way of the other managers in his enthusiasm.
Last edited:
vegassd
The ghost of Johnny Cash
- Aug 5, 2006
- 3,360
- 3,340
Whilst it's obvious that we wanted another CB in during the window, I think once that moment passed Ange has re-assessed the situation to see what is the next best step forward. He can weigh the pros and cons of letting Sanchez leave, and give his decision on it.
So like you say, a rock and a hard place. I personally think it's better to let Sanchez leave and take the risk because it guarantees a clear deck come January, although really we want to be keeping these compromised decisions to a minimum. But Rome wasn't built in a day, and I would guess Ange has made this Sanchez decision with his eye on long-term squad building.
With a bit of luck, Dier will be able to agree a pre-contract with Sporing in January and we can then loan him there for the last 6 months anyway. Another tick off the list. But we need to be signing a new CB in January for sure, and at the moment it feels like we are allergic to them!
dvdhopeful
SC Supporter
- Nov 10, 2006
- 7,610
- 6,018
Out of interesting, what are people expecting for a new CB? Replace Romero? Replace VDV? 3rd choice that could potentially replace one or both?
wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
- 13,603
- 58,005
Expecting is a difficult word, my expectation would be that we sign Kelly.
My preference was/is that we risked being short this season, at least until January and that it's better in the long run to integrate Phillips and chuck him in the deep end, develop him and (admittedly our start makes this more difficult to suggest with each passing week,) we accept this Season to be about doing what's best for the long run, rather than worry about results.
Then by keeping the situation clean and going light this season, next season we would aim to sign Tapsoba and approach things in a way of having three top cb's to choose from, then add Kelly as 4th choice on a free or hopefully for less than we sold Sanchez in Jan. Then we have Phillips integrated but 5th choice. 5 CB's, 2 HG, all would carry value if we needed to cycle.
I thought perhaps the situation would be met in the middle where we sign a lesser CB like Schuurs as a compromise between the two scenarios, I'm glad we didn't.
mawspurs
Staff
- Jun 29, 2003
- 35,110
- 17,807
- Staff
- #2,338
To me Sanchez going over Dier is as simple as he wanted out after the way he was treated last season by our own fans, whereas Dire doesn't want to go yet. We can't sell a player who doesn't want to go.
As for Ange being annoyed about the lack of additional CB, i'm sure he's grown up enough to realise not every deal is going to come off. As Herc said overall he's happy.
I'm expecting Ange to start giving the younger CB's minutes towards the end of games to a) give them the experience. b) give the senior CB's as much rest as possible to minimise exhaustion and injury.
As for Ange being annoyed about the lack of additional CB, i'm sure he's grown up enough to realise not every deal is going to come off. As Herc said overall he's happy.
I'm expecting Ange to start giving the younger CB's minutes towards the end of games to a) give them the experience. b) give the senior CB's as much rest as possible to minimise exhaustion and injury.
mr ashley
Well-Known Member
- Jan 27, 2011
- 3,138
- 8,537
That’s very much reliant on us coasting through games (like we did at Burnley)
Because it would be unfair to sub either of the lads in if there was only a goal in it - and they make a error which costs us points
Franchise60
Well-Known Member
- Feb 26, 2008
- 912
- 1,994
Do you realize that you just removed the context and nuance from Herc’s post by boiling it down to “really all that matters” is that Ange was overall happy with our window? Might want to take your own advice here when it comes to the importance of context.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Sticky
- Locked
