Stewarding at the Emirates

[dazzabee]

My view: The chanting of the word "yid" is not Anti-Semitic.

The rest I was contemplating whether to put on this public forum. In fact, I was thinking whether to put it in writing to Tottenham and/or Arsenal. The FA. The Sun. The Mirror. Evening Standard. I decided on just this forum. That may not have been correct, so do correct me.

I was sat in row two. As the teams were coming out a supporter in front of me held a flag of Israel aloft above his head. No text. No other graphics. The flag of a country.

Instantly he was swarmed by four stewards - two wearing Spurs clothing under their fluorescent jackets. Incidentally, I hadn't seen them before at away games among the usual away THFC stewards. They demanded he hand over his Israel flag. It contained no words on it at all. He wasn't chanting anything - not even the word Yid. They said the flag was "incitement". He said it was a countries flag. He is factually correct. After 15 or so minutes they agreed he could keep it if it was kept in his coat pocket.

Then, mid way through the second half, one of the stewards involved in the previous incident, proudly displaying his THFC employers card, Under Armour Spurs fleece under his stewards coat, demanded another young fan tuck in his Star of David chain. He wasn't holding it aloft. He wasn't chanting. It was round his neck - just as it probably is every day. 40 or so people who saw this started chanting scum towards the steward. I imagine it would have been more had they seen.

I will let people form their own opinions. I am just voicing the facts.

 

[punky]

The Star of David is considered a religious symbol. The rules and and email specifically said no religious or sectarian symbols are allowed. So even though a nation's flag would be allowed, the fact the Star of David appears on it, means it isn't.

You can argue whether the rules should be in place or not, but the fact was they were communicated in advance and are long-standing. I'd suggest he knew this and concealed the flag to get it through. I don't really agree with the rules but I don't suppose he can argue much if he deliberately tries to avoid them.

 

[dimiSpur]

Well the same thing happened at Southampton away. A guy behind me pulled an Israel flag out when we scored and instantly 2 stewards materialised and told him to put it away. He asked why and they said it could cause offence, and went on to say that in general flags are not permitted at St. Mary's. A quick glance around and I saw at least a dozen England flags around the place.

This will carry on until someone does something. Unfortunately, from a personal experience, I know the guy in charge of stadium matters and stewarding to be an unreasonable and condescending person. Jonathan Waikes I think he's called. I'm most probably wrong on the surname, might be Waites, not sure.

In any case, I find at times stewards seem to think they're god empowered people with authority. It's like being back at school the way your opinion on matters counts for shit. People need to remember that we as fans pay fucking shitloads to be there, and they should start treating us with some mother fucking respect.

I'm not Jewish by the way, so my rant is not to do with the discrimination against the Israeli flag or Semitic objects. I just feel strongly about things like discrimination, and also abuse of power by people in "authority".

 

[dazzabee]

Does that mean that a supporter wearing a Turban would have been asked to remove it?

 

[riggi]

Hmmm. I did notice that there is usually a star of david flag there but diddnt see it saturday.

 

[dazzabee]

The Star of David is considered a religious symbol. The rules and and email specifically said no religious or sectarian symbols are allowed. So even though a nation's flag would be allowed, the fact the Star of David appears on it, means it isn't.

You can argue whether the rules should be in place or not, but the fact was they were communicated in advance and are long-standing. I'd suggest he knew this and concealed the flag to get it through. I don't really agree with the rules but I don't suppose he can argue much if he deliberately tries to avoid them.

And the final paragraph of the statement published on Friday.

"Flags and banners will be allowed with the appropriate wording and these will be checked before entry by Police/Stewards. It is common policy and normal ground rules at football stadia in the UK and elsewhere in Europe that flags of an overtly religious/sectarian/political nature will not be permitted and may be confiscated - please respect this request."

No mention of religious symbols. The flag can be considered of the political nature, I agree.

 

[karennina]

It's a frenzy, a hysteria, and it's just one symptom of a much broader authoritarian pathology - one which grows in inverse proportion to actual danger, and is somehow, though I can't explicate how, bound up with the neoliberal drift since 1979.

 

[punky]

And the final paragraph of the statement published on Friday.

"Flags and banners will be allowed with the appropriate wording and these will be checked before entry by Police/Stewards. It is common policy and normal ground rules at football stadia in the UK and elsewhere in Europe that flags of an overtly religious/sectarian/political nature will not be permitted and may be confiscated - please respect this request."

No mention of religious symbols. The flag can be considered of the political nature, I agree.

Having the Star Of David on your flag makes it overtly religious. It is a religious symbol. The fact it belongs to Israel doesn't negate that.

 

[dazzabee]

Having the Star Of David on your flag makes it overtly religious. It is a religious symbol. The fact it belongs to Israel doesn't negate that.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The flag - I can see how this statement confirms the stewards actions. The statement does not highlight the display of a chain. Anyway, I shall leave others to discuss. I have said my piece.

 

[Ionman34]

Was the man wearing the chain Jewish? If so then he has the democratic right to wear and display it, regardless of what the clubs claim.

I wonder do they prevent the display of a crucifix with the same. Zeal. If so then both the Cross of St George and the Union Jack require banning as they are both religiously based.

 

[class of 62]

watching on tv there was a geezer in the home section with a foriegn flag drapped over the front on the stand!..red one half green the other with a crescent moon shape on it,not sure what countries flag it is but it was there all game!..one rule for one etc!
be interesting to see if west hams "over land & sea" english flag wil be removed when unfurled come saturday!

 

[punky]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The flag - I can see how this statement confirms the stewards actions. The statement does not highlight the display of a chain. Anyway, I shall leave others to discuss. I have said my piece.

Sorry I missed that in the last part skimming over.

You have a point. They probably meant any item with a religious symbol but specifically said flag. I must admit from all the years watching Spurs from the Park Lane end, I don't really have a lot of respect for our stewards. They have a shit job and a lot of our fans don't make their jobs easy, but still.

 

[Nocando]

Was the man wearing the chain Jewish? If so then he has the democratic right to wear and display it, regardless of what the clubs claim.

I wonder do they prevent the display of a crucifix with the same. Zeal. If so then both the Cross of St George and the Union Jack require banning as they are both religiously based.

Good point, particularly re the cross of St George.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's a frenzy, a hysteria, and it's just one symptom of a much broader authoritarian pathology - one which grows in inverse proportion to actual danger, and is somehow, though I can't explicate how, bound up with the neoliberal drift since 1979.

It's not really a frenzy or hysterical though is it. There are plenty of jewish/non jewish people who are uncomfortable with the whole "yids" thing - just as I would imagine some black people would be if we had taken ownership and chanted the "N" word and some would think it was OK. And if football and society are going to tackle racism then tackling this issue, of how we use it, who it offends and who it incites is valid IMO. If we are going to be allowed to chant a, by nature, "racist" term then it makes policing such offences difficult for others doesn't it ?

Personally, and this is incredibly difficult to explain, because it isn't simple or black and white, I have jewish friends, some of my favourite cultural figures are jewish and some of the worlds great people have/are jewish, but I'm uncomfortable being associated and our club being called "yids" and it's connotations because I have a huge problem with what's been done in the name of jews by Israel's politicians for decades. It just doesn't sit easy with me any more than if we were identified with some other morally dubious motif.

I can understand it's origins and it's honourable intentions, but I'll be perfectly happy if we drop it.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

watching on tv there was a geezer in the home section with a foriegn flag drapped over the front on the stand!..red one half green the other with a crescent moon shape on it,not sure what countries flag it is but it was there all game!..one rule for one etc!
be interesting to see if west hams "over land & sea" english flag wil be removed when unfurled come saturday!

It was an Algerian flag.

 

[MR_BEN]

how about everyone turn up to the next game wearing a crucifix around their next... and 1 in 10 people turn up wearing the start of david... see what happens then?

then the club WILL be in trouble for racism. The games turning into a fucking joke. Bet if you had a yank flag that would be dandy.

 

[Syn_13]

Does that mean that a supporter wearing a Turban would have been asked to remove it?

Not at all. Your comparison of a turban and the star of David is like comparing apples to oranges. A turban is symbollic of the Sikh religion but is not a symbol in of itself, whereas the latter is indeed a symbol much like the Christian cross or the Sikh khanda. I would fully expect rules to apply to all and if you can't have a star of David on display then you can't have a cross on display either.

Unfortunately, the Israeli flag has both religious and political implications. It displays a religious symbol and, especially with all the goings on between the Israeli and Hamas over in the Middle East, it can be a political statement. In the same breath I would expect people to be told to remove a Pakistani flag if it were on display.

Whether or not you agree with the banning of these flags is another thing. Personally, I'm not affected by this so I cannot really comment on it, but I can understand why they would ask people to remove it on a precautionary basis.

 

[BorisTM]

It was an Algerian flag.

I hope the fans don't turn the Arsenal vs Tottenham rivalry into some sort of an "Arabs vs Jews" one. That would be so pathetic.

 

[nightgoat]

Unfortunately, the Israeli flag has both religious and political implications. It displays a religious symbol and, especially with all the goings on between the Israeli and Hamas over in the Middle East, it can be a political statement. In the same breath I would expect people to be told to remove a Pakistani flag if it were on display.

Whether or not you agree with the banning of these flags is another thing. Personally, I'm not affected by this so I cannot really comment on it, but I can understand why they would ask people to remove it on a precautionary basis.

This. Peter Turdboat hasn't helped by stirring things up recently, but even putting that aside given what's going on over Gaza at the moment I don't blame them at all for erring on the side of caution.

Totally agree about stewards generally being on power trips, though.

 

[Mattspur]

It was an Algerian flag.

Isn't the Algerian flag green and white, not red?