Redknapp and 4-5-1

[Bowlesinho]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...arry-Redknapp-England-future-looks-scary.html

Harry seems to praise the 4-5-1 system a lot in this piece, saying it's the only way to play World football and commenting that Man U, Chavs, Arse all use the same formation successfully.

This got me thinking about how we could use the formation. I think it's probably agreed that we don't have a 'world class' frontman who could play the lone role, but with the talent in midfield we could see something like

Bale----Krancjar----Lennon
-----Modric-----Hudd------

or if Bale switches to LB

Krancjar----Modric----Lennon
----Hudd-Sandro/Palacios----

or even

Krancjar-------------Lennon
-------Modric--Hudd--------
-------Sandro/Palacios------

I personally think that we will probably need to adapt to this formation for the CL games, but obviously you need a solid frontman to play the lone role.

Discuss..............

 

[Hoowl]

I can't see it happening for most matches. We've currently got 4 strikers on our books and none of them can play the lone striker role. Even if we sell Pavlyuchenko and Keane we'll have two who can't play the loan role and that's not even taking into consideration the fact that it looks likely Eidur will be coming back to the lane.

Then there's the fact we don't get enough goals from midfield, and not just that but none of our midfielders have really shown glimspes of being a Lampard type CM who'll get 15 goals a season or a Robben/Pires type winger who will score a hatful.

It would be good to have the option, which would be given to us by signing a new forward, and I'd certainly like us to try it in preseason, but I can't see us using it very often.

 

[kcmei]

how about the formation brazil is using right now with 2 holding midfielders?

Corluka----Daws----King----Bale

------Palacios-----Sandro

Lennon-------Modric-------Arda

--------------Forlan

 

[MattyP]

Considering we predominantly played 4-4-2 last season, seems like Twitchy is just jumping on the bandwagon to me.

 

[kaz Hirai]

Considering we predominantly played 4-4-2 last season, seems like Twitchy is just jumping on the bandwagon to me.

i think he tried it a few times last season against the top 4 and it wasnt successful, im sure we'll be trying it again against some of the top 3 and in europe

 

[Bowlesinho]

Brazil in my eyes have played more of a lobsided formation, especially when Alves has come in for Elano.

It almost like

------Silva------Melo/Ramires-------
Alves-------------------------------
---------------Kaka-----------------
---------Fabiano------------Robinho-


That could possibly work if you had a player like Bellamy to play the Robinho role.

I appreciate the comments about a goalscoring CM but Barca play the 4-5-1 (4-3-3) type hybrid formation and normally xavi, keita, busquets, toure don't set the scoring charts alight, iniesta normally gets more but he's deployed further forward.

 

[mil1lion]

It's really a 4-5-1 which opens up into a 4-3-3. There are 2 ways you can use it effectively. 1 is to have 2 wide players who score goals, the other is to have to attacking midfielders who score goals.

Barca play the 1st option. Both Iniesta and Xavi create many chances, but don't score goals. So the wide attackers are the goalscorers along with Ibra up top. It requires Messi and Pedro to be as clinical as a typical 25+ goal a season striker.

I always thought England would go with the 2nd option and get goals from Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney from a central positon. So sticking Gerrard on the left and Lampard in a deeper role wasn't ideal really.

It would take a lot to get 2 goalscoring midfielders like Gerrard and Lampard. Although Kranjcar is our best option, but he doesn't score as many either. Maybe he would in a central role though.

In the ideal world I think we need 2 players who can get 20+ goals a season, 1 player who can get 10+ goals a season,a nd the rest of the squad to chip in. Currently I see Kranjcar capable of 10+ goals, and Defoe with 20+.

So we need another 20+ goal a season striker. If we were to go with the 4-5-1 system, we would need a wide striker. Someone who can score goals from out wide. Unless we could get a 30+ goal a season striker which I think is highly unlikely.

 

[teddy_sheringham_125]

how about the formation brazil is using right now with 2 holding midfielders?

Corluka----Daws----King----Bale

------Palacios-----Sandro

Lennon-------Modric-------Arda

--------------Forlan

I would prefer:

Corluka----Daws----King----Bale

------Palacios-----Thud

Lennon-------J Cole-------Modric

------New powerful striker

This can mix nicely with the 4-4-2 of last year, depending on the opposition.

 

[mil1lion]

I do like the 4-2-3-1. It's the formation Ramos was trying for but didn't get the right players for it. Playing Modric in the 2 was not ideal and very similar to England playing Lampard alongside Barry, where he was too deep. You need Modric further forward really. Plus Ramos never felt the need for a powerful central midfielder even though he had 2 at Sevilla (Keita and Poulsen).

It's funny really, because Redknapp has now got the right players for that Ramos system. I really like Palacios and Huddlestone in the 2, plus we now have the option of Sandro. I wouldn't mind O'Hara sticking with us to make a 4th option there aswell.

My only real concern is making sure we have enough goalscorers. We have plenty of players who chip in with goals, but not anyone to keep up with Defoe. I can only see Joe Cole chipping in aswell. So it would take a mega goalscorer to be the loan striker.

I'm not sure we should replace our top scorer of last season to accomodate another midfielder. We were already solid defensively with 4 in midfield, and it seems to me that using a 5th midfielder is only really an option to allow Bale to play left back. We'd need a goalscoring midfielder/wide attacker really to make it work effectively.

Can we get away with 1 defensive midfielder? At times yes, others no. So I really think we'll change between personnel more than formation next season. Sometimes we'll play 1 defensive midfielder, others we'll have 2. But I see the formation sticking much the same.

I get the feeling from Harry's comments that he'll possibly try different formations in Europe, but largely stick with 4-4-2 in the EPL.

 

[nferno]

I think it's pretty obvious that harry has wanted to play this system but he just doesnt have the right centre forward for it.. probably the most important part of the formation. if there's no focal point you can't finish or even build up attacks. we also need a goalscoring LW because Bale is gonnabe be a LB, not LW; even harry has said it.

--------------Gomes--------------
Corluka----King----Dawson----Bale
-----------Huddlestone-----------
---------Modric---Kranjcar--------
Lennon---------CF-------------LW
​

That's how i would do it but i'm about 80% sure harry will play 2 deep mids (i.e Hudd and Palacios) and Modric (although Kranjcar does carry the better goalthreat) in front of them.

Really, really want Jovetic to come slot in at LW, he's not gonna start from the off (maybe even not until next season), but he definitely will start finding his feet and scoring for fun almost like another CF; similar to how Ronaldo hit that 42 goal season. He likes drifting onto his right but can also provide natural width, does also have the height. Arda or Bastos would be good too, but I think Jovetic is the perfect man for the job.

If we are actually in for Cavani as reported, I hope he magically turns prolific for us haha, it would be a bit of a problem otherwise. This system is probably only gonna be for a certain portion of away games anyway, like cl nights etc. so Defoe, Crouch and Gudjohnsen(?) should get their chances.

 

[midoNdefoe]

i think he tried it a few times last season against the top 4 and it wasnt successful, im sure we'll be trying it again against some of the top 3 and in europe

We were much more successful against 'top4' opposition in our more natural 4-4-2. Luka and Hudd worked thier arses off in the chelsea and arse games at the end of last season, and to some extent showed that 4-5-1 isnt neccessarily the way forward....

 

[kcmei]

I would prefer:

Corluka----Daws----King----Bale

------Palacios-----Thud

Lennon-------J Cole-------Modric

------New powerful striker

This can mix nicely with the 4-4-2 of last year, depending on the opposition.

glad u think non of our current strikers are good enough. We need someone who can score 25+ goals and good as a play maker too

 

[mil1lion]

None of them are good enough as the lone striker to be fair. I do think Defoe can play it if we can keep the ball along the ground though. Similar to how Eto'o played alone for Barca, only their passing is so superior to ours (and most others).

 

[dontcallme]

Harry seems to love Defoe so I don't see him changing permanently.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I've noticed Harry praising it and upping it non stop in his pundity. We'd need a new striker I feel, though I do think any of Crouch, Defoe or Pavlyuchenko could play the lone role with the right service, but that aside we do have players who could do it. We have a midfielder who, in an advanced enough position, I reckon could score a lot of goals in Niko Kranjcar.

Gomes
Corluka Dawson King Bale
Palacios Huddlestone
Lennon Modric Kranjcar
NewGuy

Having said that, I think we could even do it this way if we signed a really good goalscoring midfielder type, but who? I hear Van der Vaart is available:

Gomes
Corluka Dawson King Bale
Huddlestone
NewACM Modric
Lennon ............ Kranjcar
NewGuy

Or even put Kranjcar back into reserve and sign a better inside forward type, but again.. who?

Gomes
Corluka Dawson King Bale
Huddlestone
Palacios Modric
Lennon ............. InsFW
NewGuy

The middle one is my favourite idea, but terribly unlikely, especially with the problem of keeping all of Hudd, Wilson and Sandro happy, but if it worked the football would be so pretty!

Imagine this squad:

GK: Gomes, Cudicini, Button
RB: Corluka, Kaboul
CB: Dawson, Woodgate
CB: King, Basson
LB: Bale, Ekotto
DM: Huddlestone, Palacios, Sandro
CM: Modric, O'Hara
ACM: Van der Vaart, Jenas
RW: Lennon, Bentley
InsFW: Kranjcar, Giovani
CF: NewGuy, Defoe, Crouch.

25 men, plenty of English, plenty of versatility of players should we use a different formation in some gaes, and potentially some very silky football.

And yes, I have completely played football manager here, but this is surely the point of this thread?​

 

[mil1lion]

Or even put Kranjcar back into reserve and sign a better inside forward type, but again.. who?

If money wasn't an option then Aguero would be the man. Heck if money wasn't an option then i'd just get Forlan and Aguero together.

Gomes
Cudicini
Corluka....Dawson....King....Bale
Kaboul....Kjaer....Bassong....Ekotto
Palacios....Huddlestone
Sandro....O'Hara
Lennon........Modric.........Aguero
Bentley........Gudjohnsen........Kranjcar
Forlan
Defoe/Crouch​

:drool:

 

[teddy_sheringham_125]

glad u think non of our current strikers are good enough. We need someone who can score 25+ goals and good as a play maker too

I don't think any of our current strikers could play this role very well, but they are certainly useful in the 4-4-2 formation that I think we should keep for certain scenarios. To make the step up though, I do think we need a tall, powerful world-class striker.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think the main thing is that the team is set up to allow fluidity and interchangeability in forward areas, whether that be using a notional 442, or the more modern 451/433 formation which is really starting to take hold throughout world football.

We were pretty fluid last season with our 442 of sorts, with the usual back 4, Hudd and Palacios in the centre and the rest were a pretty effective forward quartet who were interchangeable and kept the opposition guessing - it was hardly the straight line 442 football that England turn out. That said, I think the most rigid we looked up front was when Crouch and Defoe played together as neither are blessed with great movement and thought we were at our most cohesive when either Crouch or Defoe was partnered with one of Keane or Pavs.

I think the main thing next season is to continue to allow the team to play with freedom and fluidity and not be too dogmatic about the formation the team lines up in.

 

[stemark44]

Or even put Kranjcar back into reserve and sign a better inside forward type, but again.. who?

Arda Turan would be a good choice.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Harry may think it is the only way to play world football, but I don't think he is would actually contemplate it too seriously for Spurs in the Premiership. That may sound a bit bizarre but look at our squad and the opposition and it's not really too tough to see why he has stuck with 442.

1. Our most potent attacking players are better out wide than cutting inside. Lennon scares the bejesus out of full backs skipping past them down the flank and firing it across the box. When he was sharp before his injury Defoe must have been laughing to himself because he was just reaping everything Lennon sewed. Same goes on the left, whilst Bale is a left back by trade, even Harry started referring to him as a 'left sided player' so as not to label him since he was ripping teams a new one from left midfield. We have a natural width that many other teams simply do not have.

2. There are so many shocking full backs throught the league. Playing a 451 means the wide players have to cut inside and support the forward player and not take on the fullbacks. Even the best teams in the league are pretty ropey at full back. Man Utd have Neville/Rafael and Evra (who Lennon seems to destroy every time he plays them), Liverpool have Johnson and Insua, Man City have Zabaletta and Bridge...you kind of get the point, they are very exposible with our pace and width. 4-5-1 would take away that huge weapon we have at our disposal.

3. Slow lumbering centre backs come as standard in the Premiership these days. The modern centre back primarily needs to be good in the air, strong in the tackle and can muscle it with the lone striker. The positioning doesn't need to be that great because normally there are two of them up against a lone striker and if they do happen to get out of position the other can cover in behind. Put two strikers up against them and they have to be much sharper. If the two strikers can combine and have good movement there simply aren't too many Premiership centre backs able to cope.

4. We don't have the lone striker that can cuase enough problems to the defences by himself. We don't have the wide men suited to join the non-existent lone striker. We don't have the goal scoring central midfielder needed to help contribute to the goal tally.

5. If we switched to 451 we would be taking on opposition toe to toe at what they have been doing for a few years and are well drilled at. To beat them we would have to be better man for man in that system. Considering all of those teams Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Man City already have a game winning striker and are arguably stronger than us in other areas important for 451 I can't see us making much of an impact.

6. Teams are now set up to play against 4-5-1. They face it almost every game either in a defensive bottom half version or in a 4-3-3 attacking version. A defensive midfielder picks up the number 10, full backs get forward etc. They have to react to facing a team playing a different way, which considering the defensive personnel most teams have is difficult and we have already last season seen the evidence of it. In fact very rarely was our 2 man central midfield over ran, our defence was solid and we were able to attack outwide effectively.

I just don't see the sense in us switching to 4-5-1. Maybe for other teams, with other players, but for us it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We can take on teams arguably better than us with success using 4-4-2. In fact if we were to switch from 4-4-2 we are better suited to 3-5-2. So do we act like sheep and follow what everyone else is doing, or do we use our strengths to expose their weaknesses? :shrug: