Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura

[Locotoro]

noun
noun: inclusivity

1. the practice or policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized, such as those having physical or mental disabilities or belonging to other minority groups.
   "you will need a thorough understanding of inclusivity and the needs of special education pupils"

Inclusivity has to do with things that you basically can not control.

Being an asshole doesn't make you a victim. I can't go to a wedding and expect to be liked if I start insulting the bride. However if I went and they kicked me out cause I had a disability then that's a problem.

You can't have awful beliefs then complain that people dislike you for them.

Except he didn't say "inclusivity" (noun) he said "inclusive" (adjective) - not excluding any of the parties or groups involved in something.

And to continue your wedding analogy when you tell the asshole to fuck off out of your wedding for insulting the bride's dress you can't then go on and say you're being inclusive.

No one is complaining that people are disliking Lucas for "awful" beliefs. The arguments here are "this is why he may hold such beliefs" and "just because he has said beliefs does he deserve the vitriol being spewed at him by some sections of internet fandom (thankfully mostly not here)

 

[Locotoro]

Who said it's 6k?

Are you aware of how vast and diverse Brazil is?

Some civil servants will earn significantly less than that depending on where they live in the country.

I don't know about Lucas' parents situation but I've met people who are really struggling to get by despite having typical jobs. In a poorer area, they will REALLY struggle.

I guess Spain is similar to Portugal? I lived in Portugal for 2 years and met many Brazilians who left and felt the cost of living to be cheaper. It surprised me but some things in supermarkets are actually cheaper in Europe.

Brazil is not as cheap as you think and the public healthcare here is a big no no. Around 70% of the country is in poverty and that includes people who have normal jobs but live in poorer communities.

I apologise if I'm coming across strongly, it's just I'm a little fed up of people who've never been to Brazil claiming to know Everything

When I was back home in the UK the other week, my friend who has suddenly become very vocal about politics told me I had to vote against Bolsonaro because any choice other than him is best, despite knowing the square root of fuck all about Brazil or any of Bolsonaro's opposition. (I'm not voting by the way)

Maybe that has irked me and I'm projecting a bit.

You seem like you have a bit more knowledge on Brazil than many of us here. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about the alternatives to bolsonaro and whether the criticisms of him that many are putting forward are considered in such gravity in the country?

 

[Japhet]

Who said it's 6k?

Are you aware of how vast and diverse Brazil is?

Some civil servants will earn significantly less than that depending on where they live in the country.

I don't know about Lucas' parents situation but I've met people who are really struggling to get by despite having typical jobs. In a poorer area, they will REALLY struggle.

I guess Spain is similar to Portugal? I lived in Portugal for 2 years and met many Brazilians who left and felt the cost of living to be cheaper. It surprised me but some things in supermarkets are actually cheaper in Europe.

Brazil is not as cheap as you think and the public healthcare here is a big no no. Around 70% of the country is in poverty and that includes people who have normal jobs but live in poorer communities.

I apologise if I'm coming across strongly, it's just I'm a little fed up of people who've never been to Brazil claiming to know Everything

When I was back home in the UK the other week, my friend who has suddenly become very vocal about politics told me I had to vote against Bolsonaro because any choice other than him is best, despite knowing the square root of fuck all about Brazil or any of Bolsonaro's opposition. (I'm not voting by the way)

Maybe that has irked me and I'm projecting a bit.

Sounds like the perfect breeding ground for a wildly swinging political pendulum, which seems to be the norm in South America. Has it ever been any different? Corruption, broken promises, vigilantism etc. all seem to be deeply ingrained in that part of the World. Even Pablo Escobar managed to gain political favour for a while because poor people wanted some of his money.

 

[wrd]

Sounds like the perfect breeding ground for a wildly swinging political pendulum, which seems to be the norm in South America. Has it ever been any different? Corruption, broken promises, vigilantism etc. all seem to be deeply ingrained in that part of the World. Even Pablo Escobar managed to gain political favour for a while because poor people wanted some of his money.

And I understand it from those poor people perspective, we have no idea what access to information they have but you can only judge what you see and in the Escobar case when you have a government who appears to be doing nothing and then you have a guy who is building schools, building homes, giving out money, is from where you are and is willing to come back and show his face but then people who are seemingly doing nothing are the ones who are on the television calling him evil yet you do not bare witness to the evil. South America is a place which has consistently been destablised by outside interests.

Yes clearly I watched Narcos, hence my THOROUGH understanding of the inner workings of South America. If GTA 6 includes Colombia then I will be a walking encyclopedia of the place let me tell you

 

[HodisGawd]

I don't think a contest about who knows what about Brazil is helpful. He is not in Brazil, he is in Britain.

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

I mean it can be a coherent position. I'm not for Lucas being kicked out of the club at all. And I don't think he's a fascist. But there is a paradox that if you are tolerant to intolerance you defacto promote and support intolerance. The paradox of tolerance is a thing you can look up yourself, but it's fundamentally how a lot of this happens.

Bolsonaro may well be tried for crimes against humanity and when you have certain opinions that essentially are inciting violence it isn't 'cancel culture' to have repercussions for those view points.

If your viewpoint is to support genocide that normally constitute hate speech. Now, Lucas supports someone who if they were not an elected official and if they lived as a citizen of this country could easily fall foul of hate speech laws. Now Lucas hasn't said anything that constitutes hate speech. And I personally don't like the 'cancelling' of people for mistakes or hearsay that you often get online.

But it's a slippery slope to expect everything all view points to be included. Because it will inevitably lead to those viewpoints getting legitimacy and becoming more and more acceptable. Most societies for that reason do have limits. If I were to promote acts that are illegal or say things that are plainly discriminatory thats against the law.

We're you set those limits are very difficult and not clear cut at all, and in every society we should be empathetic and try to understand were people are coming from, even those who have done bad things or express discriminatory views but we shouldn't leave people to say and do what they want without question. Because if you read a history book you can see what that leaves to.

So yes, a inclusive society needs to exclude to some degree, it's a paradoxical situation but an inclusive society cannot fundamentally function without doing so.

I started to disagree with you when you stated "if you are tolerant to intolerance you defacto promote and support intolerance. That is drivel. Toleration is endurance. It is not support. It is not promotion. There is a lot of intolerance on this particular thread which I have had to tolerate when reading it, but that does not mean I am supporting it, let alone promoting it in any way shape or form. If I found I could not tolerate it any longer I would leave the thread.
The idea that it is bad to hear things you might find offensive is a form of bigotry.
You state that for example Bolsonaro "may well be tried for crimes against humanity", but ignore the possibility that he may well not be. When you talk of opinions that are "essentially" inciting violence, that's code for you not liking them. If, at least in the UK, you incite violence that is a criminal offence, no "essentially" about it. "Essentially" is a weasel word employed to bolster a weak point.
Again with regard to Bolsonaro, you state that he could "easily fall foul of hate laws if he lived in this country, again ignoring the possibility that he might not, and that is without entering into any debate about the morality (and even sometimes the very existence) of the "hate laws" you refer to.
"But it's a slippery slope to expect everything all view points to be included". Outrageous. You are clearly against freedom of speech. Moreover you are promoting anti-democratic authoritarianism. Shame on you. Nevertheless, I respect your right, your freedom, to make such comments.
You express your fear that views you dislike may gain "legitimacy". That will only happen if enough people freely agree with them, which again by your own admission you fear. In any event, who are you to decide "legitimacy"?
Then, you use the fact that we have laws in this country to try to bolster your opinion that freedom of expression should be limited further than the law. It doesn't.
Your penultimate paragraph seems to me to be merely fluff.
You then conclude as if you've proved something, when to my mind at least, you have done no such thing. You have merely shown your intolerance, which I have had to tolerate by reading it.
However, I support your freedom to do so, however distasteful I find your views.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Saw his comments and knew people would be on his back without having any idea of what goes on in Brazil.

Bolsonaro is an arsehole, for sure.


But let me tell a story before you go on at Lucas and why some people back him.

I was in the North East of Brazil a couple of months and our taxi driver to the hotel told us a story we simply didn't expect.

For years the people in the region of Natal were told by Lula (that's Bolsonaro's opposition) that they would fix their water issue as some people did not have access to running water. Lula made excuse after excuse but promised it was coming, it never did.

Bolsonaro came into power and within months he fixed it and now the people have running water.

Second story. I know a British guy who owns a poussada (beach bnb) and he hired some locals. Every once and a while one of these people would just be crap at their job or fail to show for their shifts. when the owner went to discipline or fire them he'd be threatened with lawsuits because Lula made it easy for employees so much so that employers had their hands tied.

These are just a couple of seasons why people back Bolsonaro over Lula.

Yes he's a shit. But when the opposition have proven in the past to make others' lives tough, you can see why some support him.

Brazil is a complex country, especially when politics comes into play.

And if anyone has listened to Lucas talk or seen him on the Spurs play thing, you'll see a genuinely good lad.

Getting sick of this world where people are judged on their political beliefs or silly mistakes, despite actually being good people at heart.

OK let me wade in on this, given that my mother is from Bahia in the North East. The story youve been told is one of the many myths and half truths surrounding Bolsonaro. Bolosnaro LOATHES the North East and is openly anti-black. ("the African slaves willingly got onto the slave ships", "your a macaco (monkey, I dont need to speak to you").

However, as with everything else in life, Brasil is not that simple, especially when it comes to race. Colourism is rife in Brasil and thus you will find Bolsonaro has many black and mixed race supporters because they wish to distance themselves from dark skin people of the North East. Moreover, religion comes before race in Brasil and hence, youll find many affable and amiable people hold some of the most repulsive views.

As a black man, I cannot dissociate peoples views from their sporting abilities. In the same way I wouldnt want a Hezbollah ("drive the Jews into the sea"), Kach Party ("drive the Arbas/Palestinians into the sea") or Aparheid supporter at the club, its the same way I cannot accept the club having someone with such odious beliefs (in my view).

 

[wrd]

I don't think a contest about who knows what about Brazil is helpful. He is not in Brazil, he is in Britain.

Controversial I know but when he's being judged based on his politics leanings as they pertain to who he choose to vote for in his home country of Brazil and everything he has said thus far is seemingly specific to what goes on in Brazil itself, it makes the "He's not in Brazil, he's in Britain" rhetoric pretty moot.

 

[Spartanspurs]

But we can't be inclusive by excluding. That is incoherent.

This feels a lot like the paradox of tolerance.

If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

 

[Hakkz]

I don't think a contest about who knows what about Brazil is helpful. He is not in Brazil, he is in Britain.

Should only go for British players in the future then.

 

[wrd]

Should only go for British players in the future then.

I must admit I find interesting the idea that right you're here now, believe what we tell you to believe approach to building a sociey that shows more tolerance. I think Ukip had a similar policy

 

[Hakkz]

I must admit I find interesting the idea that right you're here now, believe what we tell you to believe approach to building a sociey that shows more tolerance. I think Ukip had a similar policy

Interesting eh?

 

[brasil_spur]

Chipping in with my two cents:

- Don't think any footballers should be making public statements that are very politically controversial. Whatever you think of Bolsonaro he's definitely very polarising and anyone who makes comments to congresswomen like this one: "I wouldn’t rape you because you don’t deserve it" and comments to the media like: "I would be incapable of loving a homosexual son … I would prefer my son to die in an accident than show up with a moustachioed man" is clearly not someone that is a political neutral figure.
- Beyond the stupidity of making these comments is the stupidity of the comments themselves. Brazil, until not that long ago (mid 70s), was under the rule of a brutal military dictatorship, which largely came to power to stop the rising popularity of communism that was being seen in Central/South America (like in Cuba) and was as close to the Nazi party as you can get without the obvious horrendous atrocities for which they are most infamous for. In fact Bolsonaro is a firm proponent of Brazl's military dictatorship and has made comments such as: "The dictatorship’s mistake was to torture but not kill". The lack of education in his statements is not surprising given his background, but still makes what he said even worse.
- On top of all this he should have realised the even greater significance of mentioning the Nazis whilst playing for a football club that has strong Jewish connections.
- Whilst by the pure nature of it, basically every politician and political party is corrupt in Brazil, Lula was in charge of Brazil during their most prosperous period in the last 30 years. Yes he's a socialist, but what Brazil needs is massive social reform. Someone in this thread mentioned about Bolsonaro being hard on crime - this is a well trodden strategy that never works, because the only way to truly fix crime is to fix the underlying social problems that are causing it.

At the end of the day the whole thing is beyond stupid and frankly i'd be happy not to see him play for Spurs again after making these comments. Bolsonaro, by any neutral judging of the man, is a massive pile of steaming shit and a despicable human being. Even if he was the best candidate option for Brazil, which he isn't, voting for him shows a total lack of moral judgment and is deeply concerning.

 

[brasil_spur]

Ok, so yeah, but...and bear with me here...all that is much less bad, and more transitory, than the shit that has been inflicted on populations by various leftist / Stalinist governments.

So. What if Moura thinks he's protecting Brazil from the horrors of poverty and internicene violence witnessed recently in Venezuela? Or from the terminal collapse of democratic life suffered by Cubans?

Not so simple when the other side's sins are added into the equation.

By supporting a man who would welcome the return of a brutal military dictatorship in Brazil?

In theory, if we weren't talking about Bolsonaro, you might have a point. But the man is a fucking piece of shit like you wouldn't believe. It's really amazing that any sane human being would vote him into power, but the problems in Brazil are complex and a lot of people want the quick fix that he offered (and hasn't delivered).

 

[fortworthspur]

oh, Lucas. shoulda dodged this one.

 

[E17yid]

- Don't think any footballers should be making public statements that are very politically controversial. Whatever you think of Bolsonaro he's definitely very polarising and anyone who makes comments to congresswomen like this one: "I wouldn’t rape you because you don’t deserve it" and comments to the media like: "I would be incapable of loving a homosexual son … I would prefer my son to die in an accident than show up with a moustachioed man" is clearly not someone that is a political neutral figure.
- Beyond the stupidity of making these comments is the stupidity of the comments themselves. Brazil, until not that long ago (mid 70s), was under the rule of a brutal military dictatorship, which largely came to power to stop the rising popularity of communism that was being seen in Central/South America (like in Cuba) and was as close to the Nazi party as you can get without the obvious horrendous atrocities for which they are most infamous for. In fact Bolsonaro is a firm proponent of Brazl's military dictatorship and has made comments such as: "The dictatorship’s mistake was to torture but not kill". The lack of education in his statements is not surprising given his background, but still makes what he said even worse.
- On top of all this he should have realised the even greater significance of mentioning the Nazis whilst playing for a football club that has strong Jewish connections.
- Whilst by the pure nature of it, basically every politician and political party is corrupt in Brazil, Lula was in charge of Brazil during their most prosperous period in the last 30 years. Yes he's a socialist, but what Brazil needs is massive social reform. Someone in this thread mentioned about Bolsonaro being hard on crime - this is a well trodden strategy that never works, because the only way to truly fix crime is to fix the underlying social problems that are causing it.

At the end of the day the whole thing is beyond stupid and frankly i'd be happy not to see him play for Spurs again after making these comments. Bolsonaro, by any neutral judging of the man, is a massive pile of steaming shit and a despicable human being. Even if he was the best candidate option for Brazil, which he isn't, voting for him shows a total lack of moral judgment and is deeply concerning.

BBC are doing a documentary series on him and his family at the moment. Watched the first episode last week and they showed footage of that incident you speak of where he said “ you don’t deserve to be raped by me” or whatever. He also pushed her and threatened to hit her and called her a bitch. Mad.

 

[Oh Teddy Teddy]

Taking this one in a slightly different direction: he's an absentee ahead of Sporting tomorrow.

 

[wrd]

Chipping in with my two cents:

- Don't think any footballers should be making public statements that are very politically controversial. Whatever you think of Bolsonaro he's definitely very polarising and anyone who makes comments to congresswomen like this one: "I wouldn’t rape you because you don’t deserve it" and comments to the media like: "I would be incapable of loving a homosexual son … I would prefer my son to die in an accident than show up with a moustachioed man" is clearly not someone that is a political neutral figure.
- Beyond the stupidity of making these comments is the stupidity of the comments themselves. Brazil, until not that long ago (mid 70s), was under the rule of a brutal military dictatorship, which largely came to power to stop the rising popularity of communism that was being seen in Central/South America (like in Cuba) and was as close to the Nazi party as you can get without the obvious horrendous atrocities for which they are most infamous for. In fact Bolsonaro is a firm proponent of Brazl's military dictatorship and has made comments such as: "The dictatorship’s mistake was to torture but not kill". The lack of education in his statements is not surprising given his background, but still makes what he said even worse.
- On top of all this he should have realised the even greater significance of mentioning the Nazis whilst playing for a football club that has strong Jewish connections.
- Whilst by the pure nature of it, basically every politician and political party is corrupt in Brazil, Lula was in charge of Brazil during their most prosperous period in the last 30 years. Yes he's a socialist, but what Brazil needs is massive social reform. Someone in this thread mentioned about Bolsonaro being hard on crime - this is a well trodden strategy that never works, because the only way to truly fix crime is to fix the underlying social problems that are causing it.

At the end of the day the whole thing is beyond stupid and frankly i'd be happy not to see him play for Spurs again after making these comments. Bolsonaro, by any neutral judging of the man, is a massive pile of steaming shit and a despicable human being. Even if he was the best candidate option for Brazil, which he isn't, voting for him shows a total lack of moral judgment and is deeply concerning.

I appreciate your info but I wanted to highlight this point because what you said perfectly encapsulates why I do my level best to not show animosity to people whose views are different from mine because I want to understand the underlying reason why people arrived at their position. My belief is that I believe when I talk with somebody who I feel has an intolerant view or a different view from me is that if I just listen to them, I can figure out the deep rooted reason. The approach of most discourse today I think the only thing being achieved by the aggressive dismissive approach and name calling is to teach people to hide their intolerance and their emotions better and what happens with that is that eventually it comes out in extremely disproportionate ways and we end up creating the environment that allows those who are best at manipulating emotions to thrive. As much judgement of Moura has been made at least he is willing to be open and honest about how he feels and this allows for discourse and I hope he has people around him who can have that discourse in a healthy way. You are never going to change a persons views by calling them a fucking idiot or shaming them by labelling them something, all you're going to do is make them feel in danger and there's a strong possibility they respond with anger. If we let people talk about their feelings and instead of telling them why they're wrong but instead empathise with their position and then try and use that empathy you've given them and try and get them to see the parallels in terms of how the people they're being bigoted towards feel, you have more of a chance of getting somebody to change their view but I try and not be so arrogant as to think I'm always morally correct and so I have to open to considering that perhaps my views may change based on what they have to say, I don't think two people should enter a debate if both or even 1 of the parties is unwilling to change their views one iota.

 

[wadewill]

This lad sounds like Trump on speed.

Moura should have really known better, people make error's in judgement and will always have their views swayed, have their heads in the sand intentionally or not.... or he might be a complete moron, who knows.

But he certainly as someone in the public eye should know better than to air views like that. Silly boy.

I honestly don't see why anyone shouldnt be allowed to believe what they like, whether good or bad. If he supports him fair enough, I supported Brexit at the time doesnt mean I would view it the same with the information available to me now. He shouldnt be so naive and stupid to say things like that in public though

 

[Freddie]

As people have have already suggested very eloquently, I don't think it's fair to castigate someone for simply voting for Bolsonaro without understanding the issues in Brazil, however Lucas has repeatedly expressed his support for someone who in the UK is known for some fairly abhorrent views/actions. He should know how this will come across. It's even more odd given that he's said before "there are no perfect candidates", which implies Lucas doesn't totally endorse everything about Bolsonaro, so why repeatedly answer questions about it knowing your name will stick to his? Seems a bit foolish.