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How close are we to challenging City & Liverpool ?

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I have no intention of being pragmatic here, with a couple of astute purchases I think we can win the league next season.

Look at the efficiency we produced with a team which basically had only maybe 15 players who could contribute from January. I think the talk of juggling Champions League is valid, I think that we will be able to suddenly go from 3-4 reasonable rotation options to 8 very good ones in the summer, I think that'll help the Champions League conumdrum.

The reason I think we can do it is because our style suits teams who play attacking football. We have arguably the best two players for a counter attack in world football at the moment for me in Son and Kane, if they're not the best then they're up there but Son finishing statistics in 1v1s and Kane a number 9 with his passing range, you'll do well to find better in that method of attacking. So already despite limitations in the squad we have seen our style suits playing against Liv and City despite them being better footballing teams, our system means we're better than the sum of it's parts and we can get results vs teams who are set the bar high for attacking football.

Our issue has been breaking down teams who sit deep because we lack the quality to find ways through because they can so easily overwhelm our main attacking outlets because they know they can maintain shape when the ball goes to certain players. Honestly you replace Emerson with Spence and already you're going to see a significant output increase from that area, then you talk of replacing Hojbjerg with a deep lying playmaker, you add the possibility of adding Eriksen as a component. Suddenly we are going to be able to become ruthlessly efficient.

For me though the big one is Bastoni, Romero already elevates us to signifcantly higher levels as a team with not only his front foot defending but his ability to play the ball and become the extra man in attack. If you add Bastoni on the other side then all of a sudden we are going to be extremely difficult to sit back against, the guy has a wand of a left foot, he's also italian so we don't even need to mention his defending ability. No disrespect to Davies who has been superb or any of the other players I've suggested be upgraded but you can see quite easily how suddenly teams will just not be able to contain us with that level of quality.

Look at the chances we gave away vs Liverpool and City over the 3 games under Conte. We are extremely risk averse in our approach and when you combine a defence that severely limits chances already, two absolute world class forwards in Kane and Son and then add ontop the additional quality in playing out from back with a player potentially like Bastoni with players who have the technical ability to make the system just become ruthless then I really think we can do it next season.

If we tried to go toe to toe with City and Liv at their own game then it's a different conversation but we aren't. We are about to see what happens when you give Kane and Son the tools around them so they dont have to do it all themselves, we have already seen what Kulusevski and Bentancur added. I don't think the rest of the world appreciates just how much Kane and Son have had to do on their own, they're about to find out what happens when the rest of the team has the capability to support them properly.
 
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Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,709
88,831
To be totally honest, we should just bloody go for it this summer. Go big and get the best available, whatever the cost. H and Son are both 30 next season, they aren't going to sustain their level for much longer, and we need them at their peak as they are now.

Another couple of seasons and the likes of Newcastle will be blowing us out of the water as well.
 

werty

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2005
25,117
26,413
We need to get at least an extra 20 points, and that might not be enough

If you take the PPG since Conte came in, we would have finished with 76 points. If you're been really selective and/or optimistic, we could use the PPG since Kulusevski and Bentancur made their full debuts and that would be 83 points. So that's 5 to 12 points depending on how optimistic you are that the current squad is capable of adding.

Kane didn't really get going until the second half of the season and it's the first season where his xG was higher than his actual goals, so a return to normal Kane finishing should see us pick up more points. Romero only played 22 league games, so more game from him could see us picking up points.

This is all before you add in improvements (hopefully) to the team. Even just improving the wing-back play should see us pick up a couple of more wins.

On the downside, how likely is Son to have as good a season as he did this season? Kulusevski is unlikely to keep u his assist rate, though is probably capable of scoring more. Our record after midweek games isn't as good and when we have a full week, so the added CL games will hinder us. Fuck knows how congested fixtures will be nest year with the Winter World Cup It's also unlikely we will pick up 8 points against City and Liverpool against next season.

If everything goes our way and all the signings are great, we could do it. If we get near 90 points next season I'd be delighted.
 

Drink!Drink!

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2014
1,366
5,039
Scenario where it happens?

I would say we need to add another 12 points
They need to stop getting nearly 100! But if they also drop 12 more points
oooo hello.

maybe counter intuitive. If a stronger Man U, Newcastle etc take more points off City and Liverpool it may help us and make this scenario more possible
 
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karennina

ciffirt
Nov 24, 2004
2,826
1,034
We have a much easier recruitment task than Liverpool or City: CM, RWB, LCB and LWB are clearly upgradeable first team spots, unless you have a lot of love for Hojbjerg, Doherty, Davies and Sessegnon.

More competitive squad players than Moura, Bergwijn and Scarlett are also clearly attainable.

Whereas it's difficult to see who City and Pool bring in to upgrade, say, their squad forwards like Grealish or Firmino.
 

robotsonic

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,458
11,393
I think 5 top quality players into the squad gets us in the conversation if we hit the ground running after a Conte pre-season. It's the rest of the league that needs to step up. That Liverpool couldn't even win a game against any of the top 4 shows how far ahead the top group are when they're all being properly coached. Too many teams just roll over or try to play their own game as a free hit and just get steamrollered. The City and Liverpool games this season where we actually set up to counter their tactics (even the opener under Nuno) shows what can be done if you're prepared to adapt your gameplan to try and get a result, even a point.

Proud of us this season for having such a say in the title race, and coming away with a better record against the top two than they managed against us. More teams need to actually set up to fucking try against them and bring them deeper into the pack.
 

dtxspurs

Welcome to the Good Life
Dec 28, 2017
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Half a dozen top quality players that are as impactful as the likes of Kulu, Romero and Bentancur.
Yep, basically need to totally nail on purchases for 2 new forwards, at least 1 CB, 2 WB's and maybe 2 MFs... tall task.
 

EastUpperDK82

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2022
3,130
6,829
Our setup and situation at the moment is probably better than ever... World Class manager (we've already seen what he can do in a short time), Paratici to focus on deals like Kulu, Bentancur and Romero, world class stadium, Champions League... we still have Kane and Son (Kane will likely stay) ... if we go all in and back Conte then we could be in the top three mix next season... I can only see City (now with Haaland) and Liverpool (they will stay strong) ... who have a stronger setup. Two of the best teams and managers in the world... the rest will have to start over again. United with Ten Hag and an overhaul, Chelsea are losing important players and have new owners... Arsenal will not be able to lure players with CL now and they still have Arteta plus European Football to distract them this time...

If we grab this massive opportunity and back Conte plus tie him down for longer... we will be a serious contender for the top places. Not only in 22/23... COYS
 
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Frozen_Waffles

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2005
3,784
9,630
We are still a distance off, we are talking about two of the best teams I have seen (ever in my lifetime of almost 40 years). Both challenging for everything.

People have a short memory but we got knocked out of the fa cup, league cup and the Europa conference league with some embarrassing performances.

Liverpool and city generally don't allow that to happen. They are both elite and have elite players in every position (in some cases two for each position).

We would need, two world class full backs, a world class centre back, a world class midfielder and an excellent backup for Kane.

We are not (imo) better than Chelsea (yet). They should be our next target. That champions league game obliterated their season, but don't forget that they schooled us every time we played them this season.

We are much better now, but let's not get ridiculous. Some of the posts of ott confidence are outrageous.

We were about 20 points off them this season, let's see if we can close the margin next season.
 

G Ron

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2012
2,039
7,663
Pretty far but Conte took Chelsea from 10th to 1st, so really this job is several times easier.
That squad was littered with talent and had seriously underperformed the season prior. I know when you look at the table year on year it looks miraculous, but they always had the squad worthy of challenging for top honours, the massive egos in their squad had just downed tools the season before.
 
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ComfortablyNumb

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2011
4,035
6,190
Drop out of all European competition early on, and we'd be right up there. Our squad was pretty good, even before Bents and DK. Add a couple more and become more flexible in formation and we're there.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,709
88,831
That squad was littered with talent and had seriously underperformed the season prior. I know when you look at the table year on year it looks miraculous, but they always had the squad worthy of challenging for top honours, the massive egos in their squad had just downed tools the season before.
Exactly. The same team had won the PL two seasons earlier, and downed tools after the Jose/Carneiro fallout. They added Kante that season and had no Europe. Conte had a clear swing at the league that year.

We still should have won the title that season.
 

ernest_lowrider

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2012
481
2,132
People tend to foget couple of things. First, beating City/Liverpool isn't the challenging them for title. For that, we need consistency and not dropping points with relegation fighting teams who decide to park a bus for us.

We will have CL football next year which means we play every 3 days, not every 7 like now. Conte won't afford playing same team every week again.

Then, there are going to be 5 subs for each game. Right now let's say we're happy with Lucas/fit wing back/Skipp coming on. How does it compare to City or Liverpool benches?
 

Ron Burgundy

SC Supporter
Jun 19, 2008
7,757
23,456
I think we’re some way away personally. There’s an element of quality in the first team where we’re behind, but it’s the depth of the quality and the variety in the squad that they have.

they very rarely make messes or games likes Brentford and Brighton in the way we did, and they also have an ability to go for the jugular when teams are on the back foot.

We’re still a fair bit behind
 

Thenewcat

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
3,039
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Lo ero
We need two transfer windows that replicate what Liverpool did in 2017/2018 - where they addressed their main weaknesses by signing Van Dijk, Fabinho, Salah, Robertson and Alisson.

Our January window went some way in doing this with Kulu and Bentancur.

1. Two Top quality CBs: Gvardiol, Bastoni, N’dicka, Bremer, De Vrij, or Torres.

2. Wingbacks: Hakimi, Perisic, Kostic, Carrasco, Raum, Singo, Baku.

3. Central midfielder: Bissouma, Neves, Tielemans, or Phillips.

4 Forward: Osimhen or Martinez.

Free transfers: Johnstone or Forster & Eriksen.

So to answer your question, we probably need 6-7 key additions that are first team quality in order to give Conte the squad to compete against City and Pool.

So it’s unlikely we get everything sorted but definitely not impossible.

I agree 6-7 players sounds about right, and if we hit on 5 of them across two seasons like Liverpool did that will move us up a level, but we won’t get all those players from your targets. Robertson was an under the radar signing, and even Salah wasn’t considered a superstar. We need to get the 2-3 big investments right but also need to find some more Kulus and Bentancurs.
 

sundanceyid10

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
3,379
8,319
We would have to make up over 20 more points, I love the optimism of some posters, but we would have to spend so huge for that to happen. It’s not like the other clubs are standing still City have added Haaland. I don’t see Levy spending the kind of money required to do it, it would be way more than we have spent before if you are talking winning the title.
 
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