- Mar 9, 2006
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To be perfectly honest I'm fucking sick of hearing about it.
The police fucked up. The stadium designers fucked up. The army of drunk and ticket-less Liverpool fans fucked up.
For some twisted reason the latter point has been glossed over (obviously nothing to do with the reaction to The Sun's bullshit).
I spent hours going through the released papers, and their fuckwit fans of the age clearly played their part in causing this tragedy.
If they had a shred of decency they'd feel ashamed. That's clearly a moral admittance beyond them...just ask Juve.
I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong
I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong
I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!
Never hear the phrase 'public pressure' before? Read the actual un-doctored reports and I'd be surprised if you maintain your current view. Some Liverpool fans were in-part to blame. Not a popular reading, but clearly an accurate one if you actually read the evidence.
I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong
Sick of 27yrs of injustice? Sick of hearing about the institutionalised corruption of South Yorkshire police? Sick that the families of the 96 victims were right all along? Or sick that after 2yrs of inquest your own pre-conceived observations based on nothing but substantial than second hand anecdotal here-say have been completely and utterly proved groundless?
Here's some points you may wish to consider:
1. Check the video again. No one rushed the gates. Only when Superintendent Duckenfield opened the gates at 14:52 did anyone surge forward.
2. Yes, thousands (estimate is 2k) were still outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles just before kick-off. The inquest heard that on the weekend of the Semi-Final there was roadworks on the M62 which caused the late arrival of an estimated 5k Liverpool fans. Besides which it's nothing unusual for fans to turn up at the last minute. In this case it wouldn't have been unreasonable for the match to have been put back 15mins to get everyone in.
3. ",,,where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?". There was plenty of room to take all the fans behind the goal. As you will know from your own experience of Leppings Lane the layout is a bit like the old Wembley. You go through the turnstile and into an atrium and from there into one of several terraced pens. The problem was that when the gates were opened the match was about to kick off & everyone headed directly for the central pens immediately in front of them (pens 3 & 4). The pens adjacent (1 & 2 next to the Main Stand and 6 & 7 next to the North Stand) were only partially filled.
4. There was no need for the police to control "...the crowd further from the ground.." the problems of control were solely in the ground and in the immediate vicinity of the Leppings Lane entrance.
And finally......
5. "...to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong".
INQUEST JUDGEMENT (7)
Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury's answer: No
I think I might find this difficult to explain and in no way I'm a trying to cast asspertions upon anyone, but as someone who was a regular home and away at the time of Hillsboro and was actually at our semi final with wolves at Hillsboro 2 years earlier and saw what happenend that day from the seats above in the leppings lane end. we where very lucky not to have had injuries and even deaths that day and warnings from that day where obviously not heeded.
but going to football then was not like it is now, all football fans where treated as animals!.. lets face it many where including me and Liverpool had more than there fair share.. there reputation for being thieves , bindippers all round scum etc didn't come by accident!. and coming out of lime st station in them days when you played them you took your life in your hands unless you where mob handed.
the vast majority of Liverpool fans that day where nothing less than well behaved fans just going to support there team but like all teams support in them days had an element that made a reputation for all of football and the authourities dealt with everyone as if they where thugs/ hooligans etc. ..." the English desease " as it was known abroad then.
I pray for those families of the 96 that have lost there loved ones. 27 years is long long time for the truth to finally be proved.
I don't know how they will ever find comfort and I do really hope accountability to those who's failiures that day cost these innocent people there lives is much swifter ..
I thought our 'incident' was in '81 it was on radio five tonight. After our 'incident' Hillsborough was banned from hosting semi finals for six years.
The only reason we missed a massacre was because the 'pens' then didn't have have caging at the side. Our fans had the chance to escape that way.
Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong
My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.
That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.
Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?
The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.
The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.
I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.
I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?
So, it seems your real irritation is with, in your view, Liverpool fans being unable to accept their own part of “the blame”? Are you serious? They’ve had to live with that unfair slur for decades!My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.
That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.
Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?
The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.
The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.
I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.
I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?
I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!
Ours was '81, no idea why peeps keep saying 2 years previously as we were at Villa Park.
Read on a Leeds site they had the same problem in '87, but their Semi with Coventry was delayed for 30 minutes to get everyone in, but again there was a massive crush and fans were being lifted up to the upper tier, like in '89. In those days the organising authorities found it easier, more convenient, to allocate stands to the fans of opposing semi-finalists based on where the bulk of those fans were travelling from. So, in 1989, Forest got the large Kop End, Coventry in '87, and Wolves in '81..
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ped-their-own-hillsborough-disaster-1-7880063
Indeed. I remember when we got knocked out of the cup at Port Vale the year before Hillsborough I think it was, loads of Spurs turned up without tickets and it got so bad outside that they just opened up the gates and let everyone in.sorry fella but going to football then was different .. loads turned up ticketless at Hillsboro that day and blagged the turnstiles as we all did in them days.. just an honest opinion.. not saying it was an overriding cause but it undoubtedly happened.
'cause the South Yorkshire Police were up their own arses, mate! Never made sense to me either why we got the Leppings. Re the blagging/jibbing, we all used to do it. Was easier in the 70s, and got more difficult. There was no more blagging in '89 Hillsborough than in previous seasons.apologies mate.. I don't know what I was thinking regarding the year.. but I can recall our day there 2 years before as if it was yesterday!.. from the bollocks of getting from Sheffield station to Hillsboro and vis versa after.. finding a pub near the ground and walking up to the ground!.. sitting in my seat and watching what unfolded below me.. only difference was the gap in the fence to the right and plod being aware of what was going on then !.. still kicked off at the other end when they created a gap in the kop end for the spurs overspill in the leppings lane end which was led around the side of the pitch.
to this day ive always wondered why the teams with the biggest following in both ours and liverpools semis at Hillsboro where never given the kop end but the far smaller leppings lane end of terrace and seating.
Those 'reports' were lies. Those 'undoctred' reports were redacted so heavily they barely made sense.
That's not my words btw but the very few decent coppers on duty words. They were astounded that they were forced to 'retire' due to telling the truth.
You are so way off the mark here. I now have to question all the things you have said that I agree with, applauded, enjoyed and laughed at.
What is your agenda here? When will you stop? Clearly not when the biggest ever inquiry in British legal history delivers its most damning verdict. Will it be when the South Yorkshire chief constable is suspended due to lack of public faith? Clearly not.
Will it be when people responsible are actually locked up?
Probably not either.
You keep peddling the Sun and Kelvins lies. They are your bedfellows.
Disgrace.