ENIC...

Metalhead

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It’s interesting that you dismiss Metalhead’s restrained optimism as a “theoretical future that may never come to fruition” when your entire post is founded on unrestrained negativity about an equally theoretical future that may never come to fruition.

Of course, I do get why fans are unhappy. I’m unhappy too. You’re absolutely correct to say that we had a golden chance or three. And blew them. Levy undoubtedly has to take a share of the blame. As does Poch. And the players. And now we have Jose, who has done little yet to restore our faith. So, yes, I completely understand where you’re coming from.

But perhaps you could clarify for me what kind of pessimism specifically motivated your post? There are two generally accepted types - defensive and dispositional. The former is actually a positive trait because it helps us to prepare for the worst. The latter serves no purpose other than to suck every last drop of enjoyment from the lives of its sufferers.

So is your post simply your way, as a long suffering Spurs fan, of helping you to prepare for the worst, should it ever come to pass? In which case, that’s probably not a bad idea! Or is it just that you find yourself taking a kind of perverse solace in misery? In which case, shake it off.

We have no idea what comes next. Not for Spurs. Nor for any other club. All we can say is that, under Levy, Spurs rose to very near the top from a far lowlier position than now. The odds were stacked against us to a far greater degree. We had nothing like the resources then that we have now.

There is nothing to be gained from speculating that everything will go right for myriad other clubs in the near future while everything will go wrong for Spurs. Nothing to be gained, that is, apart from inuring yourself to disappointment. And while that is a valid defensive strategy, don’t let it suck the hope and enjoyment that you can and should still get from following Spurs. Hope still abides. Hold onto it.

Hello, everyone, by the way. Long time lurker. Thought I’d announce myself with a bland first contribution....
Your penultimate paragraph reflects exactly what I was thinking. If the future is absolutely hopeless then what would be the point in supporting in some kind of martyr like fashion? The truth I suspect is that whilst many fans are in a pessimistic mood, of course they do still hold out optimism for the future. It’s the reason why all those who spend the match day thread trying to outdo each other with negativity nevertheless stay until the bitter end. Like the rest of us, they still hold out hope that it will come good before the end.
 

sunnydelight786

Chief Rocka
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Jan 7, 2007
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I think that it’s more of a pity with the current regime. Sugar was so often reactive - never really having a strategy or understanding of where to take the club over the long term - obviously there were a few small bright spots like the signings of Klinsmann and Ginola but otherwise it was a very average era. Levy has had that big vision of where he wants the club to be but there have been times where, as mentioned by others, that little bit of an extra push could have reaped dividends.
It took us 15 years to become genuine PL challengers & that was more to do with MP genius than them. Don’t forget MP ammo, when he took over, was to have us playing CL footy by the time we move into our new stadium, NOT to win the league or compete for it. He went over & beyond their wildest expectations within 2 years. Instead of seizing the opportunity & helping him kick us even further on they hindered our development by bringing in ‘hopeful punt’ signings. Any wonder why MP looked so frustrated at times in his interviews & spoke in riddles at times.
Almost 20 years on and I’m still struggling to understand ENIC/Levy vision for us on the field. Today we are no closer to winning the league than when we were when Jol secured European football for us. After almost 2 decades in charge, and only a Mickey Mouse cup to show, serious questions have to be asked of our owners now!
 

Metalhead

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16,000
It took us 15 years to become genuine PL challengers & that was more to do with MP genius than them. Don’t forget MP ammo, when he took over, was to have us playing CL footy by the time we move into our new stadium, NOT to win the league or compete for it. He went over & beyond their wildest expectations within 2 years. Instead of seizing the opportunity & helping him kick us even further on they hindered our development by bringing in ‘hopeful punt’ signings. Any wonder why MP looked so frustrated at times in his interviews & spoke in riddles at times.
Almost 20 years on and I’m still struggling to understand ENIC/Levy vision for us on the field. Today we are no closer to winning the league than when we were when Jol secured European football for us. After almost 2 decades in charge, and only a Mickey Mouse cup to show, serious questions have to be asked of our owners now!
Serious questions are asked but what would make the difference in terms of them reappraising their approach?
 

SecretLemonadeDrinker

Active Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2020
Messages
60
It took us 15 years to become genuine PL challengers & that was more to do with MP genius than them. Don’t forget MP ammo, when he took over, was to have us playing CL footy by the time we move into our new stadium, NOT to win the league or compete for it. He went over & beyond their wildest expectations within 2 years. Instead of seizing the opportunity & helping him kick us even further on they hindered our development by bringing in ‘hopeful punt’ signings. Any wonder why MP looked so frustrated at times in his interviews & spoke in riddles at times.
Almost 20 years on and I’m still struggling to understand ENIC/Levy vision for us on the field. Today we are no closer to winning the league than when we were when Jol secured European football for us. After almost 2 decades in charge, and only a Mickey Mouse cup to show, serious questions have to be asked of our owners now!
The idea that our relative success under Poch owes more to his genius than anything that Levy has done is a strange one to me. Appointments of key senior personnel is a critical responsibility for a CEO. Levy certainly got it in the neck for every poor managerial appointment (rightly so - and there were plenty, alas!) so it’s only fair that he should take credit for appointing Poch. It was a brave decision at the time, and far from universally popular among the fans.

What also seems strange to me is that you should dismiss our one trophy under Levy as the Mickey Mouse Cup. I’d expect Arsenal fans to describe it thus. Not a Spurs fan. And certainly not after having thrashed Arsenal in the semi final and outplayed and outfought Chelsea in the final. Our two bitterest rivals gloriously put to the sword is anything but Mickey Mouse to my mind.
 

kendoddsdadsdogsdead

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Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
1,324
It took us 15 years to become genuine PL challengers & that was more to do with MP genius than them. Don’t forget MP ammo, when he took over, was to have us playing CL footy by the time we move into our new stadium, NOT to win the league or compete for it. He went over & beyond their wildest expectations within 2 years. Instead of seizing the opportunity & helping him kick us even further on they hindered our development by bringing in ‘hopeful punt’ signings. Any wonder why MP looked so frustrated at times in his interviews & spoke in riddles at times.
Almost 20 years on and I’m still struggling to understand ENIC/Levy vision for us on the field. Today we are no closer to winning the league than when we were when Jol secured European football for us. After almost 2 decades in charge, and only a Mickey Mouse cup to show, serious questions have to be asked of our owners now!
I can’t shake the feeling that they want to have that you can bring success carrot for any potential buyer? Even though they pay lip service to it I’ve convinced myself that they’re really not fussed by winning anything for the pure footballing sense. When Levy talks about football I can see straight through him.

not saying the owner has to be a super fan or even that knowledgeable but I want them to be in it for the right reasons and I’m just not buying that they are and I think that filters down all the way through the club. Do acknowledge that he’s a very smart businessman though.
 

Wheeler Dealer

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Jul 29, 2011
Messages
4,402
We will never be able to sustain a championship challenging team whilst the owners objective is about getting a return on their investment. They make no secret about their motives and strategy. They have never invested their own money in developing the club. All debt is leveraged against the assets of the club, and not ENIC, and this is their plan currently and it will continue to be whilst their retain ownership.
We have to get used to this business model, as there is no plan B, unless it is sold to an owner who wants to invest for silverware, as opposed to investing for a return.

Look at the last 10 years, all the PL winners, even including Leicester have had rich owners, pumping in personal money for the chance of success. Man Utd are slightly different, but they are a money making machine irrespective of ownership.
 

sunnydelight786

Chief Rocka
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Jan 7, 2007
Messages
6,060
The idea that our relative success under Poch owes more to his genius than anything that Levy has done is a strange one to me. Appointments of key senior personnel is a critical responsibility for a CEO. Levy certainly got it in the neck for every poor managerial appointment (rightly so - and there were plenty, alas!) so it’s only fair that he should take credit for appointing Poch. It was a brave decision at the time, and far from universally popular among the fans.

What also seems strange to me is that you should dismiss our one trophy under Levy as the Mickey Mouse Cup. I’d expect Arsenal fans to describe it thus. Not a Spurs fan. And certainly not after having thrashed Arsenal in the semi final and outplayed and outfought Chelsea in the final. Our two bitterest rivals gloriously put to the sword is anything but Mickey Mouse to my mind.
In modern day football the LC is Mickey Mouse. Everyone plays their reserves all the way through until the semi/final.
Teams competing in Europe get a bye in one of the rounds & next season are exempt from it but you’re right it’s not Mickey Mouse eh... Do you honestly think winning the LC will be enough to keep hold of Kane? The only comps that matter in modern day football to players is the CL/PL. There’s a reason why MP prioritised them above everything else rightly or wrongly. I don’t agree with players not valuing domestic cups anymore but sadly that’s just the way it is....
 

Shadydan

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In modern day football the LC is Mickey Mouse. Everyone plays their reserves all the way through until the semi/final.
Teams competing in Europe get a bye in one of the rounds & next season are exempt from it but you’re right it’s not Mickey Mouse eh... Do you honestly think winning the LC will be enough to keep hold of Kane? The only comps that matter in modern day football to players is the CL/PL. There’s a reason why MP prioritised them above everything else rightly or wrongly. I don’t agree with players not valuing domestic cups anymore but sadly that’s just the way it is....
I think we're at a point now where anything will do as long as we get something in the cabinet and work our way up from there. Jose's first trophy as a Chelsea manager was the League Cup which proved to be a catalyst for other honours.
 

sunnydelight786

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I think we're at a point now where anything will do as long as we get something in the cabinet and work our way up from there. Jose's first trophy as a Chelsea manager was the League Cup which proved to be a catalyst for other honours.
IF we miss out on Europe hence take part in that farce of a LC comp next season, is that a acceptable trophy to win? Is that something worth shouting about?
 

SecretLemonadeDrinker

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Messages
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We will never be able to sustain a championship challenging team whilst the owners objective is about getting a return on their investment.
The two are not mutually exclusive. John Henry and FSG have the very same objective - whatever they might say otherwise.

The objective isn’t the problem. It’s the strategy that needs to be tweaked.
 

Shadydan

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IF we miss out on Europe hence take part in that farce of a LC comp next season, is that a acceptable trophy to win? Is that something worth shouting about?
I really don't care as long as we win something, then the plan for me is to build from there.
 

Metalhead

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IF we miss out on Europe hence take part in that farce of a LC comp next season, is that a acceptable trophy to win? Is that something worth shouting about?
The proof will be in how many cup final tickets we would sell. If it's that much of a second rate trophy then surely fans would stay away.
 

wrd

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The proof will be in how many cup final tickets we would sell. If it's that much of a second rate trophy then surely fans would stay away.
Not really when our allocation will be less than we sell in season tickets.
 

sunnydelight786

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I really don't care as long as we win something, then the plan for me is to build from there.
The piss taking won’t stop my friend, it’ll simply be tweaked to ‘well you only won it as NO big club was in it’ with a asterisk next to it in the honours list
 

Shadydan

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The piss taking won’t stop my friend, it’ll simply be tweaked to ‘well you only won it as NO big club was in it’ with a asterisk next to it in the honours list
Piss taking? So we're gonna use fan banter as a measure of success are we?

No-one should ever give a stuff what other fans think, even if we won a major trophy rival fans would find some way to get at us, I suggest you stop listening to them if that's really bothering you.
 

sunnydelight786

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Piss taking? So we're gonna use fan banter as a measure of success are we?

No-one should ever give a stuff what other fans think, even if we won a major trophy rival fans would find some way to get at us, I suggest you stop listening to them if that's really bothering you.
No issue for me as I never measured the Mickey Mouse LC win as success compared to challenging for the PL under MP, others used that as a stick to beat him with. My guess is the piss taking from rival fans, players & media got to them.
I’d rather we concentrated on challenging/winning the PL than extend ourselves in a cup which is 4th on any big clubs priority list
 

Shadydan

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No issue for me as I never measured the Mickey Mouse LC win as success compared to challenging for the PL under MP, others used that as a stick to beat him with. My guess is the piss taking from rival fans, players & media got to them.
I’d rather we concentrated on challenging/winning the PL than extend ourselves in a cup which is 4th on any big clubs priority list
Why can't we do both?
Why does that have to be an either or scenario?

For a team who hasn't won a jot for over a decade why can't we be happy with just a League Cup if it's a catalyst to continued success?
 
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JayB

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Aug 24, 2011
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3,684
It’s interesting that you dismiss Metalhead’s restrained optimism as a “theoretical future that may never come to fruition” when your entire post is founded on unrestrained negativity about an equally theoretical future that may never come to fruition.

Of course, I do get why fans are unhappy. I’m unhappy too. You’re absolutely correct to say that we had a golden chance or three. And blew them. Levy undoubtedly has to take a share of the blame. As does Poch. And the players. And now we have Jose, who has done little yet to restore our faith. So, yes, I completely understand where you’re coming from.

But perhaps you could clarify for me what kind of pessimism specifically motivated your post? There are two generally accepted types - defensive and dispositional. The former is actually a positive trait because it helps us to prepare for the worst. The latter serves no purpose other than to suck every last drop of enjoyment from the lives of its sufferers.

So is your post simply your way, as a long suffering Spurs fan, of helping you to prepare for the worst, should it ever come to pass? In which case, that’s probably not a bad idea! Or is it just that you find yourself taking a kind of perverse solace in misery? In which case, shake it off.

We have no idea what comes next. Not for Spurs. Nor for any other club. All we can say is that, under Levy, Spurs rose to very near the top from a far lowlier position than now. The odds were stacked against us to a far greater degree. We had nothing like the resources then that we have now.

There is nothing to be gained from speculating that everything will go right for myriad other clubs in the near future while everything will go wrong for Spurs. Nothing to be gained, that is, apart from inuring yourself to disappointment. And while that is a valid defensive strategy, don’t let it suck the hope and enjoyment that you can and should still get from following Spurs. Hope still abides. Hold onto it.

Hello, everyone, by the way. Long time lurker. Thought I’d announce myself with a bland first contribution....
We'd been in statistical decline for years leading up to Poch's sacking. In that time, we've gone from genuine title contenders to finishing 27 points back of last season's champions and (as of now) 41 points back of this season's. The gap between us and Liverpool is more than twice as large as the gap between us and the relegation zone. We've been passed up -- on the table, not in theory -- by the likes of Leicester and Wolves, and sit level on points with Burnley. We have, in actual fact, been dragged back toward mid-table.

In order to close the enormous gap that has opened between us and the clubs at the top, we're going to have to do incredibly well in the transfer market. A market in which Chelsea, ahead of us this season to begin with, have already added two world class players to their squad and don't appear to be finished. A market in which our manager has explicitly stated, in reference to the business already done by our rivals, "We know that we are not going to be in the same league, in the same world, as clubs that are going to do completely different to us." As discussed at length in today's Extra Inch podcast episode, it's also a market in which our league-leading debt obligations leave us with dramatically less free cash flow, and therefore less capacity to spend on transfers, than the clubs which are already ahead of us and which we would need to outcompete in the market in order to surpass.

Does all that mean, necessarily, that Levy won't pull a rabbit out of a hat and put together a string of deals which has us competing at the top again? Of course you're correct that it does not, and that we cannot know what the future will hold. You can look no further than my posts in the scouting thread to see that I've not actually given up hope, that I'd be thrilled if we sold some of the players who hold value in the market but who are on the fringes of our best XI and used the money for a genuine squad refresh. I quite enjoy thinking of different transfer scenarios that would put us back in contention and do it all the time both here on SC and with my friends in real life. In other words, I haven't let go of hope at all. You may also notice, however, that there are a number of responses to those posts quite rightly suggesting that the sort of player exchange I'm hoping for is unrealistic.

And it's that realism, not some deficiency in my "personality traits" which you so smugly and presumptuously point to, which informs my less-than-rosy view of the medium-term future of the club. The reality is that we're miles behind the best teams in the league. The reality is that we have far fewer financial resources than they do. None of that definitively dooms us, per se, but it does render a sudden rebirth of a title contender rather unlikely. And that's more than enough reason to rue the opportunities we've allowed to pass us by.
 
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