ENIC...

[Metalhead]

How dare they take us from a mid table band of mercenaries to cheese room giants.

You’re not helping your argument there old boy.

 

[spursfan77]

Dortmund had some difficult times at the end of Klopp and then through the next couple of managers. The difference is their recruitment is far more proactive than ours. They see it as the primary way of creative revenue through buying young and selling at peak value.

And so did we. But until we return to that I don't think much will change. There is obviously a plan though, Mourinho in his press conference yesterday hinted as much. We don't want a bloated squad but we need a higher turnover of players. I think part of our problem is that the players have got far too damn comfortable. I've a feeling Levy now sees this too, when was the last time one of our players was rewarded with one of those contracts bumping up their pay from 12 months earlier? Seems a while ago now.

 

[danielneeds]

And so did we. But until we return to that I don't think much will change. There is obviously a plan though, Mourinho in his press conference yesterday hinted as much. We don't want a bloated squad but we need a higher turnover of players. I think part of our problem is that the players have got far too damn comfortable. I've a feeling Levy now sees this too, when was the last time one of our players was rewarded with one of those contracts bumping up their pay from 12 months earlier? Seems a while ago now.

I just can’t see a high turnover of players in the next window, here or anywhere. I think it’s gonna be really hard to get deals done.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

You’re not helping your argument there old boy.

Where is the error in my comment?

 

[Metalhead]

Where is the error in my comment?

It was a joke - I’m guessing that you noticed it due to your spam rating. It’s nice to lighten the mood sometimes as it gets a bit heated on here.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

We'd been in statistical decline for years leading up to Poch's sacking. In that time, we've gone from genuine title contenders to finishing 27 points back of last season's champions and (as of now) 41 points back of this season's. The gap between us and Liverpool is more than twice as large as the gap between us and the relegation zone. We've been passed up -- on the table, not in theory -- by the likes of Leicester and Wolves, and sit level on points with Burnley. We have, in actual fact, been dragged back toward mid-table.

In order to close the enormous gap that has opened between us and the clubs at the top, we're going to have to do incredibly well in the transfer market. A market in which Chelsea, ahead of us this season to begin with, have already added two world class players to their squad and don't appear to be finished. A market in which our manager has explicitly stated, in reference to the business already done by our rivals, "We know that we are not going to be in the same league, in the same world, as clubs that are going to do completely different to us." As discussed at length in today's Extra Inch podcast episode, it's also a market in which our league-leading debt obligations leave us with dramatically less free cash flow, and therefore less capacity to spend on transfers, than the clubs which are already ahead of us and which we would need to outcompete in the market in order to surpass.

Does all that mean, necessarily, that Levy won't pull a rabbit out of a hat and put together a string of deals which has us competing at the top again? Of course you're correct that it does not, and that we cannot know what the future will hold. You can look no further than my posts in the scouting thread to see that I've not actually given up hope, that I'd be thrilled if we sold some of the players who hold value in the market but who are on the fringes of our best XI and used the money for a genuine squad refresh. I quite enjoy thinking of different transfer scenarios that would put us back in contention and do it all the time both here on SC and with my friends in real life. In other words, I haven't let go of hope at all. You may also notice, however, that there are a number of responses to those posts quite rightly suggesting that the sort of player exchange I'm hoping for is unrealistic.

And it's that realism, not some deficiency in my "personality traits" which you so smugly and presumptuously point to, which informs my less-than-rosy view of the medium-term future of the club. The reality is that we're miles behind the best teams in the league. The reality is that we have far fewer financial resources than they do. None of that definitively dooms us, per se, but it does render a sudden rebirth of a title contender rather unlikely. And that's more than enough reason to rue the opportunities we've allowed to pass us by.

Firstly, I apologise if you interpreted my post as a commentary on “some deficiency in” your “personality traits”. That wasn’t my intention at all. Whatever the reasons for your pessimistic expectations for Spurs, I would certainly never attribute them to personality deficiency.

I fully agree with you that the current reality is depressing. We have indeed fallen far from the very high standards we set ourselves - though, when you say that we had “been in statistical decline for years leading up to Poch’s sacking”, it was actually two years (which is both more precise and doesn’t sound quite so bad!). No one can deny that we are having a very poor season. Nor can anyone deny that a huge chance has been missed to win serious silverware under Poch. I am 100% with you on all of that.

Where I disagree with you is when you veer off into assertive predictions of a grim short and medium term future. While your original post did contain some slight caveats, the overwhelming impression it gave was that the bleak outcome that you described was nigh on inevitable. And I cannot agree that it is anything like. In your scenario, nearly everything goes right (or is right) for a whole raft of other clubs and nearly everything goes wrong (or is wrong) for us. Why is that any more realistic than an expectation of a more positive outcome? Of course, it is possible that what you predict to happen might actually happen. It isn’t unrealistic. But the thing to remember is that your prediction is necessarily subjective regardless that you base it on certain known criteria. It is only your idea of a future reality.

It is no less realistic to think that, with time working with the players behind him, Jose Mourinho will mould the team into a highly effective and competitive unit, capable of winning silverware. It is no less realistic to believe that the squad that we already have has massively underperformed since the beginning of 2019 and that it is capable of performing much better. It is no less realistic to hope that we will see a far greater return from the recent big investment in players than we saw this season. It is no less realistic to think that Spurs will supplement the squad with one or two gems (and one or two duds, no doubt!) in the transfer market or from the academy. This version of realism is also based on known criteria.

What provoked my original response to you was your dismissal of Metalhead’s measured optimism as a mere “theoretical future that may never come to fruition” followed by countering it with a pessimistic, and far less measured, theoretical future that may equally never come to fruition.

I couldn’t let that pass without it being challenged. But, once again, I do apologise if it gave you the impression that I was pointing towards some kind of “personality deficiency”. My bad.

 

[hellava_tough]

The infrastructure is now in place and the revenue will start rolling in over the next couple of seasons.

However, now is the time to up our game on the footballing side of things.

We need to do better in player recruitment.

And we've never developed an 'elite winning mentality', which you need to succeed at this level.

That has to change.

 

[Shadydan]

The infrastructure is now in place and the revenue will start rolling in over the next couple of seasons.

However, now is the time to up our game on the footballing side of things.

We need to do better in player recruitment.

And we've never developed an 'elite winning mentality', which you need to succeed at this level.

That has to change.

Pre pandemic yes, not sure where the lack of revenue from gate receipts leaves us though.

 

[hellava_tough]

Pre pandemic yes, not sure where the lack of revenue from gate receipts leaves us though.

Lack of revenue won't last more than 12 months imo.

The government has already said they will roll out a Keynesian economic recovery plan, so I'm optimistic in that regard.

Furthermore, the entertainment industry is generally better insulated against depressions/recessions.

And finally, London is especially resilient to economic downturns; 2008, for example, barely effected it.

Things might feel bad now, but we've been locked up for the last 3 months. This time next year people will be spending money and people will be making money.

That's Capitalism baby!!!

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Sometimes, I think it can be helpful to err on the side of grace and allyship before jumping to the aspersion phase of discussion. Personally, I find it helpful to actually ask questions first. Not questions with pre-meditated answers or pre-conceived binary suppositions... but rather, genuine questions.

Such as...
... how long have you been supporting the club?
Why do think that a chance has been missed?
Why do you think we will now fall behind others?
Do you feel disappointed by how things have gone at the club, compared to what you were hoping for a couple of years ago?

I think all of those are potential questions that could provide you with additional personal insights that don't involve jumping to conclusions about the emotional state of another human being. In particular, one you don't know from a hole in the wall.

Read Wittegenstein's theory of language for a much more intelligent and thoughtful set of reasons as to why it is borderline pointless to guess how others feel, and indeed doing so... in particular when coloring those assumptions with subjective assertions, can cause the subject of your observations to feel defensive and judged.

I'd imagine that @JayB, might be a bit like myself, and others who have supported the club for a long time. We've all seen a lot of dross along the way, with eons slugging our way through the mire of mediocrity.

The Poch era was somewhat of a game-changer. For the first time that I could remember supporting the team (since 1986-87), that we had a team of genuine merit that could compete at the highest levels.

It's hard when you love something, and you so desperately want it to be successful. You see all those other fans basking in the glow of those big European nights... destiny of Wembley, parading a trophy from atop a double-decker bus... and you yearn to touch that light. And for the briefest of moments, it seems feasible. And then it doesn't.

Yep, that's disappointing. Or at least, the term is a gross simplification of how it makes me feel. It's more elemental than that. It hurts the heart in some respect. It's the equivalent of holding a dream and then having it ripped from your grasp.

That's why it's acutely painful, my friend. That's why some fans like me feel sad, agitated, grumpy, cynical, etc. And apologies if that comes across as defeatist, but when you have followed this team and watched this sport for multiple decades, you get pretty good at recognizing patterns. It's hard to not to see this as an opportunity that may not come around again for some time. And you're right, it may be much sooner than that. But history implies otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be proven incorrect, but... experience 'n all that.

So, you can't swipe away these feelings and chalk them up to a black-and-white explanation... that we are either this or that. Forgive me for saying, but directing absolutism, judgement, and indignance at the unremitting chaos of fan-driven emotions, is to be dismissive of what it means to support Tottenham Hotspur... at least for me.

No one supports this team 'cos of guaranteed success. Far from it. Supporting this club is like some sort of religious, albeit sadistic, calling. We revel in the badge we wear and all that goes with it. That includes occasionally taking a ride to the dark side of hope. It's all part and parcel of being a Spurs fan.

But you know that already... don't you?

Thank you for informing me how you would have proceeded. Forgive me for having foregone the small talk!

I too have supported this club for a very long time. I too feel the same disappointment and sadness that you and JayB feel. I just don’t share your bleak vision of our short and medium term future.

You say that you are basing your expectations on recognition of patterns and history. I question that there is a pattern - or rather, that there is only one pattern and that it is necessarily the one that you have identified. I also question the usefulness of citing history as a reliable predictor of the future.

For instance, is Spurs really the same club that it was in 1991, when it last sank into an extended period of mid table mediocrity? Or is it far better equipped to bounce quickly back now than it was then? I believe the latter. I don’t believe that history will repeat itself - at least, not in the way that you suggest.

I fully accept that I could be wrong. What I dispute is that those who see a gloomy outlook for our club necessarily have logic, history, patterns and realism on their side.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

It was a joke - I’m guessing that you noticed it due to your spam rating. It’s nice to lighten the mood sometimes as it gets a bit heated on here.

Apologies. Being made redundant, appreciation of humour not at its highest.

 

[WiganSpur]

We'd been in statistical decline for years leading up to Poch's sacking. In that time, we've gone from genuine title contenders to finishing 27 points back of last season's champions and (as of now) 41 points back of this season's. The gap between us and Liverpool is more than twice as large as the gap between us and the relegation zone. We've been passed up -- on the table, not in theory -- by the likes of Leicester and Wolves, and sit level on points with Burnley. We have, in actual fact, been dragged back toward mid-table.

In order to close the enormous gap that has opened between us and the clubs at the top, we're going to have to do incredibly well in the transfer market. A market in which Chelsea, ahead of us this season to begin with, have already added two world class players to their squad and don't appear to be finished. A market in which our manager has explicitly stated, in reference to the business already done by our rivals, "We know that we are not going to be in the same league, in the same world, as clubs that are going to do completely different to us." As discussed at length in today's Extra Inch podcast episode, it's also a market in which our league-leading debt obligations leave us with dramatically less free cash flow, and therefore less capacity to spend on transfers, than the clubs which are already ahead of us and which we would need to outcompete in the market in order to surpass.

Does all that mean, necessarily, that Levy won't pull a rabbit out of a hat and put together a string of deals which has us competing at the top again? Of course you're correct that it does not, and that we cannot know what the future will hold. You can look no further than my posts in the scouting thread to see that I've not actually given up hope, that I'd be thrilled if we sold some of the players who hold value in the market but who are on the fringes of our best XI and used the money for a genuine squad refresh. I quite enjoy thinking of different transfer scenarios that would put us back in contention and do it all the time both here on SC and with my friends in real life. In other words, I haven't let go of hope at all. You may also notice, however, that there are a number of responses to those posts quite rightly suggesting that the sort of player exchange I'm hoping for is unrealistic.

And it's that realism, not some deficiency in my "personality traits" which you so smugly and presumptuously point to, which informs my less-than-rosy view of the medium-term future of the club. The reality is that we're miles behind the best teams in the league. The reality is that we have far fewer financial resources than they do. None of that definitively dooms us, per se, but it does render a sudden rebirth of a title contender rather unlikely. And that's more than enough reason to rue the opportunities we've allowed to pass us by.

Whilst this is true, a large part of our slide in the table was caused by the end of the Pochettino era. Whether it's mental, tactical, physical, or all three, it doesn't matter. That's no slight against Pochettino by the way, it's just the way that it ended. He got fed up, it seems the players did, and Levy didn't help.

The Mourinho factor, whilst not as strong as we might have predicted, is still there, and the change of manager has improved our results and position in the table. That's even with the injuries we've had. This is an undeniable fact. I feel this is only natural since the players lost focus under Poch and are starting to regain it under Jose.

What i'm trying to say is that both can be true. Our current crop of players had been underperforming, but we are also weak in 2/3 areas that need strong reinforcement personnel wise.

I think a true reflection of where we are in the table right now is probably a few points higher than our current position. We're a shoe in for Europa League on the cusp and with every chance of nicking a CL spot. On paper our squad is solid still and is easily top 6.

 

[Metalhead]

Lack of revenue won't last more than 12 months imo.

The government has already said they will roll out a Keynesian economic recovery plan, so I'm optimistic in that regard.

Furthermore, the entertainment industry is generally better insulated against depressions/recessions.

And finally, London is especially resilient to economic downturns; 2008, for example, barely effected it.

Things might feel bad now, but we've been locked up for the last 3 months. This time next year people will be spending money and people will be making money.

That's Capitalism baby!!!

Of course - the stadium is a long term asset. It’s hard to say how long it will be before the extra revenue from the new stadium will benefit the squad - obviously the debt is a factor although with it having been refinanced into a complex but long term package, that should give Levy flexibility plus obviously the potential for a naming rights deal will further erode the debt. Football finance is so convoluted that it’s difficult to

Apologies. Being made redundant, appreciation of humour not at its highest.

Sorry to hear that fella. That has to be a stress - I hope that you get back into work quickly.

 

[cliff jones]

It’s alright when you consider we are basically Aston Villa or Everton. We aren’t comparable to those clubs in the picture.

we”re still bigger than two of them despite their trophy cabinets, imho

 

[riggi]

we”re still bigger than two of them despite their trophy cabinets, imho

Global fanbase and financials maybe but nothing that really “matters” on a fan level.

 

[yankspurs]

The last 3 years has been Levy painting his mona lisa. The incompetence he's displayed in footballing matters has been absolutely incredible.

 

[yojambo]

Nothing I wish more than for Enic, Levy and Joe Lewis to sell.

 

[jurgen]

They get the credit for us going from mid table dummies to half decent to serious challengers, so hopefully they'll get the credit for taking us back to dummies again.

 

[kannanmothalali]

Look at the bright side 5 years from now Levy lovers can wank off together with him looking at the balance sheet.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

There's me thinking a change of manager was our only problem... Do things differently, be brave! The answer was summer of 18, 1st ever in history self imposed! and this is now where we find ourselves, Liverpool behind us then done things slightly differently... Anyhow's onward to our new 20 year plan, yawn...

I've save the really funny jokers who like to come in and say 'did we lose?' yes we did, problems much deeper than that though for anyone that wants to take their head out of their ass, much deeper than our 14th manager in 20 years too...