Are we making excuses?

[JimmyG2]

This is crazy. Making excuses? we're 4th. Bar losing to Arsenal at their place by only 1 goal we would be joint top of the table.

I was at the Hull match and could feel the anxiety in the place as people waited for us to score. Our heads our so far up our own arse its incredible.

Dembele is making an excuse to try and appease impatient fans. Last year he said that it was hard to motivate themselves as a result to losing against a lesser team. That was making an excuse. We've just beaten another team and he has to come out with this smh. I am genuinely worried what will happen when we lose some games.

Also, I remember in the 'what our opponents are saying' thread Noriwch, Cardiff and at least one other teams fans all raved about how good our football was and that it was the best they had seen. Also the first half against Chelsea we played really good football, so thats at least 3 out of the 8 league games. Our rivals arent playing great football every match and we have a team that's not even gelled yet.

Genuine question as I know how much some people hate Europa. Would people prefer to finish 4th playing like we are or finish 5th playing swashbuckling football?

Its a false dilemma, just mind games.
Would you prefer to lose your right foot or your left hand.
If a gunman threatened your wife and kids which would you offer up.
Taste or hearing.
Play well and lose; play badly and win.
It's all a nonsense
We prefer to win playing well. Play well and you will win usually.
It's not a genuine question, its quiz question
The fourth/fifth situation is not an option you can take.
Its a fantasy, a ridiculous set of alternatives.
Nobody buckles their squash all the time in any case.
We won't change we will develop.
We are playing well within ourselves, to put it politely
and we're 4th anyway.

 

[SteveH]

Agree. That's why 1882 is such an important fan movement.

Hopefully their presence will be felt tonight and WHL will be a cauldron of noise and passion and we'll smash 5 past Hull.

Who are 1882? I don't get out much..............or listen.

 

[TaoistMonkey]

Who are 1882? I don't get out much..............or listen.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-1882-movement.92362/

 

[Flashspur]

i think AVB is right and there is a lot of negativity....you just have to look at some of the posters here sometimes....me included

 

[Legend10]

You forgot to add that its just not fair that the opposition doesn't play 2-4-4 against us so we can win easily.

As far as I can see only you've said that?

Dembele certainly doesn't say it in the link to the Standard you posted, although for some reason you're insinuating that he did?

 

[Legend10]

Of course the better team with the better footballers would prefer a bigger pitch, I would have thought that was obvious!

Our pitch is very small, I personally can see why our players don't find it helpful. When you go to places like City & Utd it's clearly obvious to the naked eye how much bigger the pitch is.

 

[SteveH]

As far as I can see only you've said that?

Dembele certainly doesn't say it in the link to the Standard you posted, although for some reason you're insinuating that he did?

Lets not lets facts get in the way of a good whinge. If you listen to AVB original 'crowd' comments they are hardly strident or dictatorial.

 

[Sauniere]

We play with a high line and inverted wingers so we only need 2/5 of the pitch, we could get a few thousand extra seats on the edges of the grass. No need for a bigger stadium and fans closer to the action = better atmosphere. Sorted

But seriously, we've played at WHL long enough to make any particular aspects of the pitch and it's size work in our favour not the opposition. Time we started stamping our authority at home again.

 

[dagraham]

As far as I can see only you've said that?

Dembele certainly doesn't say it in the link to the Standard you posted, although for some reason you're insinuating that he did?

I think you need to read the link again.

“We know that some teams are going to come here and make a block, and we don’t have a big pitch so it’s even more difficult.

We’ve spoken about it, and everyone was saying ‘wow, it’s unbelievable – everybody is playing like this against us.’

Its also been mentioned before by other players and management. I'm not having a pop at Dembele but the team and management need to work on the training ground. The pitch and the negative tactics of the opposition are not new things and we should have noticed them by now and implemented answers, instead of making excuses.

 

[NEVILLEB]

AVB needs to play Adebayor and Soldado against the teams who come to park the bus.

It will also make more space in midfield.

He's obsessed with 4-5-1.

 

[StartingPrice]

I don't think they are excuses.
we play good football. A bigger pitch would aid that - obviously because our quest is to find more space in which to express ourselves, while the opposition, in seeking to restrict space, are aided by a smaller pitch. So, we could do with a bigger pitch. Yes, it has been that way for a while, but football has seriously changed. Any and every club should do everything within their own power to aid themselves. In the case of teams who congregate downwards, that is going to include having a small pitch. So, to aid ourselves we should look to have a bigger pitch - and I believe the new stadium will give us that.

Does the lack of atmosphere harm us? I believe it does. There have been plenty of previous threads on this subject, including one from the start of last season when a section of the support was getting on AVB's case. Spurger, I believe, provided detailed information on how negative crowds affect team performance - meaning the most apparent thing, to me, about boo-boy/girl-ism is the very fact that it is almost certain to have a contrary consequence to that intended. Conversely, it is not without reason that generations of commentators have used the expression the crowd is ROARING the team on! Such support can, and often visibly does, give a team a lift.

Has the storm-in-Baddiel's jockstrap about the Y-word silenced us? It may be contributing, but the same issues have been raised before and for plenty of other clubs, too.

Does our football warrant such a negative response from sections of the support? Not in my opinion, but I'm odd. I have these odd memories of teams parking the bus during the RatKnip era, of us floundering trying to break them down, of turgid, stultifying games...and of losses and draws in such games. Obviously none of that ever happened and we have played a continuum of Roy-of-the-Rovers/Harlem-Globetrotters football ever since dot. I also have this concept that this is, essentially, a wholly new team created from the dismantling of the most effective components of the RatKnip squad (in an attacking sense), but I'm sure this concept is out-dated, now. And, most bizarrely of all, I believe (yes, surey I do believe) that I have seen Liverpool and then United winning title after title on the back of streams of poor performances ending in lucky, or, at least, ill-deserved, wins. That seems to matter for me, for some reason - maybe it is the lack of a title for this club in half a century (I've been supporting for 37 years and I've never seen one), together with the record start to an EPL season and all of the clean sheets while gelling a squad. I can't quite put my finger on it but, yes, I do think fans should be more patient and more supportive - but I've been saying that on here long before AVB was a twinkle in Daniel Levy's eye.
COYS

 

[dudu]

I don't think they are excuses.
we play good football. A bigger pitch would aid that - obviously because our quest is to find more space in which to express ourselves, while the opposition, in seeking to restrict space, are aided by a smaller pitch. So, we could do with a bigger pitch. Yes, it has been that way for a while, but football has seriously changed. Any and every club should do everything within their own power to aid themselves. In the case of teams who congregate downwards, that is going to include having a small pitch. So, to aid ourselves we should look to have a bigger pitch - and I believe the new stadium will give us that.

Does the lack of atmosphere harm us? I believe it does. There have been plenty of previous threads on this subject, including one from the start of last season when a section of the support was getting on AVB's case. Spurger, I believe, provided detailed information on how negative crowds affect team performance - meaning the most apparent thing, to me, about boo-boy/girl-ism is the very fact that it is almost certain to have a contrary consequence to that intended. Conversely, it is not without reason that generations of commentators have used the expression the crowd is ROARING the team on! Such support can, and often visibly does, give a team a lift.

Has the storm-in-Baddiel's jockstrap about the Y-word silenced us? It may be contributing, but the same issues have been raised before and for plenty of other clubs, too.

Does our football warrant such a negative response from sections of the support? Not in my opinion, but I'm odd. I have these odd memories of teams parking the bus during the RatKnip era, of us floundering trying to break them down, of turgid, stultifying games...and of losses and draws in such games. Obviously none of that ever happened and we have played a continuum of Roy-of-the-Rovers/Harlem-Globetrotters football ever since dot. I also have this concept that this is, essentially, a wholly new team created from the dismantling of the most effective components of the RatKnip squad (in an attacking sense), but I'm sure this concept is out-dated, now. And, most bizarrely of all, I believe (yes, surey I do believe) that I have seen Liverpool and then United winning title after title on the back of streams of poor performances ending in lucky, or, at least, ill-deserved, wins. That seems to matter for me, for some reason - maybe it is the lack of a title for this club in half a century (I've been supporting for 37 years and I've never seen one), together with the record start to an EPL season and all of the clean sheets while gelling a squad. I can't quite put my finger on it but, yes, I do think fans should be more patient and more supportive - but I've been saying that on here long before AVB was a twinkle in Daniel Levy's eye.
COYS

im standing in virtual interweb land giving this a round of applause.

 

[Legend10]

I think you need to read the link again.

“We know that some teams are going to come here and make a block, and we don’t have a big pitch so it’s even more difficult.

We’ve spoken about it, and everyone was saying ‘wow, it’s unbelievable – everybody is playing like this against us.’

Its also been mentioned before by other players and management. I'm not having a pop at Dembele but the team and management need to work on the training ground. The pitch and the negative tactics of the opposition are not new things and we should have noticed them by now and implemented answers, instead of making excuses.

Ok, I've taken your advice and read it again, and I still can't see where Dembele says that it isn't fair how teams are setting up against us?

Can you highlight the part where he says thus as you've mentioned it 2 or 3 times now and I have to admit to just not being able to see where he says this?

I do agree though that doing some work on the training ground would help, I can't think why AVB and his staff haven't thought of this.

Also I'm not sure what they are making excuses for, we're 4th and right in the mix and at least until this evening still in all of the cup competitions. Maybe AVB and the players when asked a question are just giving honest reply's and general observations? I certainly don't know what they would be excusing themselves for, generally winning perhaps?

 

[dagraham]

Ok, I've taken your advice and read it again, and I still can't see where Dembele says that it isn't fair how teams are setting up against us?

Can you highlight the part where he says thus as you've mentioned it 2 or 3 times now and I have to admit to just not being able to see where he says this?

I do agree though that doing some work on the training ground would help, I can't think why AVB and his staff haven't thought of this.

Also I'm not sure what they are making excuses for, we're 4th and right in the mix and at least until this evening still in all of the cup competitions. Maybe AVB and the players when asked a question are just giving honest reply's and general observations? I certainly don't know what they would be excusing themselves for, generally winning perhaps?

Sorry but I think you've taken my post a bit too literally. Obviously there is no exact quote where Dembele says its not fair. I'm paraphrasing for effect but the quotes are there and the implication is that the oppositons tactics have come as a great shock to the players. Quite how this is so is beyond me as its been going on for years.

I'm sure the players and management are just giving honest replies and making observations but reading between the lines, its just excuses for unimaginative and risk free football. All just my opinion, of course

 

[Mullers]

No he didn't, Jol did.

 

[Boots]

I'll probably be told to f*** off and support Man Utd or something, which seems the usual response these days to anything remotely negative but here goes.

Following on from AVB suggesting that the fans are to blame for the poor performances of late, we now have Dembele coming out and suggesting that our pitch is too small and its not fair that the opposition comes to WHL to defend :

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...art-lane-pitch-for-lack-of-goals-8908242.html

Whilst the statements about the atmosphere, opposition and pitch are not factually incorrect, it smacks to me of just making excuses.

The opposition has every right to make it difficult for us and we can't expect them to go full out to attack us and risk a pasting. Its not a new thing either, its been going on for a number of years now an we still seem unable to come up with an answer.

As for the pitch, it may be small but again, it hasn't changed so why do we seem suddenly surprised by it? A certain club from up the road famously had one of the smallest pitches in the league before they moved. Rather than offering it up as an excuse, they turned it to their advantage.

I'm not going to open up the fan debate as its already being discussed in another thread but other successful clubs have had their share of problems with the "prawn sandwich" element but you don't see them offering it up as an excuse for lame performances. They may have remarked on it but have said that it comes with the territory of playing for a club with high standards.

I'm just getting the feeling that the manager and players are almost adopting a losers mentality and getting their excuses in early and losing sight of the real issue, being that for some time we are unable to open up teams in open play. Something needs to change imo and it has to come from AVB and the team on the training ground.

I think you anwsered yourself partly in the section I emboldened. The team year on year has changed so drastically that we can't beat teams that 'Park the Bus'. Each new team has to learn and experience what it feel s like to play a West Ham using 4-6-0, a team hell bent only on trying to stifle you. The team is playing the way a a newly constructed but strong team should. Defensively sound, cautious and sadly without trust. Its going to take time for them especially with the changes that come from squad rotation, language barrier etc. Flowing football it seems to me never just happens, a lot of ground work has to be layed and I think that's what Villas Boas and this team are doing.

 

[Spurger King]

Agree with your first sentence, certainly it has to be organised.

Disagree with your second, but thats personal preference! There will always be family areas and quieter areas for those that dont want the noise.

I go to Genoa quite alot. This is the Genoa North stand. Bit mad!! i love it, but totally see why alot of people wouldn't. And it is all totally orchestrated by the Ultras who have 'cheerleaders', spotters, radios in contact with other sections and all the rest

Nice.

I'm a big Genoa fan for absolutely no reason. It started when they used to show Serie A football on channel 4, and I liked them (not sure why...they weren't any good).

In fact I like them so much I went on holiday to Genoa a few years ago. Nice aquarium.

As for the excuses....if the pitch is too small to play a certain style of football, don't play that style of football. Seeing as 50% of our prem games will take place on it, it might be a good idea to adapt to it.

Our new players are adapting, but the problem is that we can't afford to have a transitional season. If we don't get Champions League I can see one or two of Sandro, Vertonghen, and Sandro being next to go, and then we'll have to bring in more new players who will need to adapt etc...

By hook or by crook we're getting results, but I just don't see how that's sustainable playing as we are (very little imagination or movement). Bale stepped up big time last season, and we need one or two to do that now. Townsend is doing his bit, but we need Dembele to start showing some consistency, Lamela and/or Eriksen to start dictating our attacking football instead of being on the periphery, and for someone to get the bloody ball to Soldado.

Siggy, Hotlby, Lamela, and Eriksen could all in theory be competing for a number 10, or free roaming LM position. They should be raising their game, but instead they seem to be trying to outdo each other in a game of 'who can disappear for the longest'.

The whole team, and quite a lot of the fans, need to man up and rediscover some belief.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Nice.

I'm a big Genoa fan for absolutely no reason. It started when they used to show Serie A football on channel 4, and I liked them (not sure why...they weren't any good).

In fact I like them so much I went on holiday to Genoa a few years ago. Nice aquarium.

.

Cool! I wouldn't say i am a huge fan, but go to alot of games there with my brother in law who's a ST holder there in Gradinata nord. Probably go to a good 4 or 5 games a year. more of a fan of the day out than their football tbh!

 

[JimmyG2]

The difference to the area of most other Premiership clubs is small.
I see the sense in saying that bigger pitches would help teams
that play in a more expansive style.
But conversely teams that are used to a bigger pitch would be cramped at Spurs
and we are used to it.
Away from home it should work to our advantage if our style suits bigger pitches.
Perhaps that's part of the reason why we do better away from home.
Not for the first season I seem to remember.
However I think that the pitch at the new stadium,
(Oh yes we are)
should be at the outer limits of permitted size.
Then adapt our game and level of fitness to make best use of it.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

AVB needs to play Adebayor and Soldado against the teams who come to park the bus.

It will also make more space in midfield.

He's obsessed with 4-5-1.

We play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

We played 4-4-1-1 for most of last season - once Bale was given a free role - so I think you're wrong to say AVB is 'obsessed' with any formation.

4-4-2 has a time and place but it is no more effective than 4-5-1/4-2-3-1/4-3-3. When we played 4-4-2 under Harry we were insipid against numerous teams.