29/5/85 Heysel - Football's (LFC) Forgotten Crime

[allatsea]

Sad day for all concerned. A dark time in English football for all clubs.

Lets not use this tragedy to score points, we are better than that, I hope

Sorry to disagree with you but Liverpool and their fans love to wallow in the tragedy of Hillsborough and so do the British press. Whereas the tragedy of Heysel is just mentioned in passing by Liverpool and the press and then quickly forgotten.

Nothing wrong therefore in pointing out the differences and contradictions.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Sorry to disagree with you but Liverpool and their fans love to wallow in the tragedy of Hillsborough and so do the British press. Whereas the tragedy of Heysel is just mentioned in passing by Liverpool and the press and then quickly forgotten.

Nothing wrong therefore in pointing out the differences and contradictions.

I don't think you need to connect the two things in such a vindictive way.

I don't think Liverpool fans 'love to wallow' in Hillsborough. It was a horrendous event for which they were primarily blamed up until very recently. They weren't so much wallowing in tragedy as trying to get justice. There's no real difference to Bradford and the fire to be honest and I think criticising them for that is very unfair.

I do believe that the club as a whole needs to take more responsibility for Heysel though.

 

[Spurger King]

Just been reading the Heysel thread on RAWK (all three whopping pages).

There's a few comments about needing to admit their guilt, and criticising Liverpool for not doing enough to reach out to Juve, but as expected it's mostly a series of posts blaming everything from the security, the Juve fans themselves, the stadium, UEFA, and the Belgian government.

 

[RickyVilla]

Just been reading the Heysel thread on RAWK (all three whopping pages).

There's a few comments about needing to admit their guilt, and criticising Liverpool for not doing enough to reach out to Juve, but as expected it's mostly a series of posts blaming everything from the security, the Juve fans themselves, the stadium, UEFA, and the Belgian government.

And the city of Manchester, the Queen, King Juan Carlos of Spain, David Letterman, Ronald McDonald, Joe Royle, Boy George and S Club 7.

 

[Cavehillspur]

Just been reading the Heysel thread on RAWK (all three whopping pages).

There's a few comments about needing to admit their guilt, and criticising Liverpool for not doing enough to reach out to Juve, but as expected it's mostly a series of posts blaming everything from the security, the Juve fans themselves, the stadium, UEFA, and the Belgian government.

Currently having an argument with some pool mates, all them blaming the stadium bla bla bla..

 

[talkshowhost86]

Currently having an argument with some pool mates, all them blaming the stadium bla bla bla..

Yup the stadium made us do it guv'!

 

[allatsea]

Just been reading the Heysel thread on RAWK (all three whopping pages).

There's a few comments about needing to admit their guilt, and criticising Liverpool for not doing enough to reach out to Juve, but as expected it's mostly a series of posts blaming everything from the security, the Juve fans themselves, the stadium, UEFA, and the Belgian government.

Makes my point far better than my post does.

 

[TheGreenLily]

No less barbaric than any thug of football fan.

I don't give a shit what team they support, football thugs are nothing more than brainless morons who need to be eradicated from the game.

 

[mkkid]

How many remember the first match against Anderlecht in the EUFA final back in 1984.

The dead Spurs fan shot .. in the back ...by a bar owner, the subsequent alleged 'hooliganism' which in my
opinion was caused by extremely heavy handed policing.

The trouble back then for the travelling English fans was they were considered fair game by the continentals, stabbings before games and brutal police who decided every English fan was a hooligan and needed battering.

Brian Flanagan

 

[TheChosenOne]

Brian Flanagan

I'll never forget his name. One of those JFK moments.

Our lads were in the one bar all day, from about 7.30 when we had beer and breakfast, everything was happy and the beer was flowing nicely, no agg at all. We were opposite a brothel and having a laugh and a joke at the clientele who were going in and out. No banter - just private observations from inside our bar about the various men who were walking up and down and around the block trying to get brave enough to go in.

The lady owner of the bar was so pleased to have us in there, she must have earned well that day.

In the afternoon though, she went into panic mode, she explained to us about the shooting at the Gare Du Nord and the cops had gone into seek and destroy mode by then, turning all the Spurs fans out onto the street and marching them to ground with riot cops, dogs and guns.

The first time they came into our bar it was peacable, they spoke to the landlady and she said we had been no trouble all day and they left us alone however a short while after that another riot squad stormed the bar for no reason, so many tried to batter down the double doors of the pub that the doors came off their hinges, all done by the police who waded in with their batons at those unlucky to be nearest to them. We hadn't done anything, but were herded out as described.

Overreaction maybe ?

 

[mkkid]

It was like that all the time in Europe,if you were English you were going to get it.We were hardly angels.
The west ham fans use to sing a song about him.
I've always found it odd that the club have never mentioned him or remembered him.

 

[TheChosenOne]

One of the other problems in Europe back then was it was the days of a heavy British Army presence in the old West Germany.

When we arrived at a Eurpean game like Frankfurt, Munich and thereabouts the squaddies would always turn up and be seriously pissed up and dancing on tables etc even though they were from all over the UK and not even Spurs fans.

 

[gp13tot]

Im not suggesting for one second that liverpool fans should be blameless for heysel as they were the ones who attacked juve fans. But a lot of things happened that made this a tragedy rather than a hooligan incident.

Disgraceful old crumbling stadium. Uefa should not have hosted the game there end of story. Absolutely has to be taken into account. Could easily have been a tragedy at any point in the game with the weight of jumping spectators.

Ticketing arrangements. Another farce. Juve were given extra tickets including in a neutral area. This was next to the main liverpool area. Combine this with easy to forge tickets for anyone, let alone the king of the jibbers the scousers, this allowed those wanting to cause trouble to easily get in and around the juve fans in the 'neutral section' (zone Z). Liverpool fans did cause trouble. Many fans did at this time. But uefas failings magnified the tragic impact of the liverpool fans behaviour.

The belgian police also have to take some blame for the escalation. Most european police are not shy in drawing the baton, particularly on the English. This lot were about as much use as a condom at a lesbian orgy and let the liverpool fans run riot.

The book 'scally', written by an evertonian, gives an account of the event. Worth a look.

Liverpool clearly have a guilty conscience over heysel. Some of their fans behaved poorly. Yes the media should give more coverage to this tragedy.

But, as much as our (unbelievably) new biggest rivals will be pilloried for shifting the blame elsewhere, i think this is with SOME justification, as i have outlined. Im sure there are people on this forum who engaged in hooliganism, particularly in those days.

In summary, liverpool and hooliganism can only share some of the blame for the tragic events.

 

[allatsea]

Im not suggesting for one second that liverpool fans should be blameless for heysel as they were the ones who attacked juve fans. But a lot of things happened that made this a tragedy rather than a hooligan incident.

Disgraceful old crumbling stadium. Uefa should not have hosted the game there end of story. Absolutely has to be taken into account. Could easily have been a tragedy at any point in the game with the weight of jumping spectators.

Ticketing arrangements. Another farce. Juve were given extra tickets including in a neutral area. This was next to the main liverpool area. Combine this with easy to forge tickets for anyone, let alone the king of the jibbers the scousers, this allowed those wanting to cause trouble to easily get in and around the juve fans in the 'neutral section' (zone Z). Liverpool fans did cause trouble. Many fans did at this time. But uefas failings magnified the tragic impact of the liverpool fans behaviour.

The belgian police also have to take some blame for the escalation. Most european police are not shy in drawing the baton, particularly on the English. This lot were about as much use as a condom at a lesbian orgy and let the liverpool fans run riot.

The book 'scally', written by an evertonian, gives an account of the event. Worth a look.

Liverpool clearly have a guilty conscience over heysel. Some of their fans behaved poorly. Yes the media should give more coverage to this tragedy.

But, as much as our (unbelievably) new biggest rivals will be pilloried for shifting the blame elsewhere, i think this is with SOME justification, as i have outlined. Im sure there are people on this forum who engaged in hooliganism, particularly in those days.

In summary, liverpool and hooliganism can only share some of the blame for the tragic events.

None of the things you list excuse the behaviour of some of the Liverpool fans. Without their attacking the Juve fans there would have been no problems. It is fashionable these days to find excuses when things go wrong but those Liverpool fans were the problem. Without their actions the day would have turned out differently.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Im not suggesting for one second that liverpool fans should be blameless for heysel as they were the ones who attacked juve fans. But a lot of things happened that made this a tragedy rather than a hooligan incident.

Disgraceful old crumbling stadium. Uefa should not have hosted the game there end of story. Absolutely has to be taken into account. Could easily have been a tragedy at any point in the game with the weight of jumping spectators.

Ticketing arrangements. Another farce. Juve were given extra tickets including in a neutral area. This was next to the main liverpool area. Combine this with easy to forge tickets for anyone, let alone the king of the jibbers the scousers, this allowed those wanting to cause trouble to easily get in and around the juve fans in the 'neutral section' (zone Z). Liverpool fans did cause trouble. Many fans did at this time. But uefas failings magnified the tragic impact of the liverpool fans behaviour.

The belgian police also have to take some blame for the escalation. Most european police are not shy in drawing the baton, particularly on the English. This lot were about as much use as a condom at a lesbian orgy and let the liverpool fans run riot.

The book 'scally', written by an evertonian, gives an account of the event. Worth a look.

Liverpool clearly have a guilty conscience over heysel. Some of their fans behaved poorly. Yes the media should give more coverage to this tragedy.

But, as much as our (unbelievably) new biggest rivals will be pilloried for shifting the blame elsewhere, i think this is with SOME justification, as i have outlined. Im sure there are people on this forum who engaged in hooliganism, particularly in those days.

In summary, liverpool and hooliganism can only share some of the blame for the tragic events.

These would be the same useless Brussels police that we got in Brussels the year before v Anderlecht.

 

[Syn_13]

I was not alive when this happened (born in late '85), but my dad often tells me about it. Being a massive Juve fan he's always found it hard to forgive Liverpool for what happened, and has always hated the club as a result. It kind of rubbed off on me as I've subconsciously grown to hate them over the years (albeit the way they are, particularly nowadays, is reason enough!).

Italians don't really do forgiveness very well. It's very much a cultural thing to bear grudges and want vengeance, consider the word 'vendetta' for instance! I don't know any Juve fans that are willing to forgive really, and whenever Juve have played Liverpool since they've definitely made that clear. Not the greatest attitude, I'll admit, but a lot of it boils down to the way Liverpool, as a club, handled it. They showed a lot of disrespect to those that died by trying to deny, or at least play down, their fans' involvement.

We shouldn't compare Heysel to Hillsborough, both were tragedies. However, I do think it's fair to say that Liverpool football club have not treated Heysel as seriously as Hillsborough, which is disappointing to say the least.