2023/24 - The Race For..................

[tommo84]

I’ve thought for weeks that I can get more excited at the prospect of having a proper go at the Europa League than I can at the prospect of us limping through 8 games in the new format of the Champions League while it simultaneously destroys our domestic campaign through fatigue. One of my biggest peeves about the club in the last decade+ is how - since Jol was sacked - we’ve never really had a go at the Europa League (or Conference League). For a while there was the notion that only the Champions League was worth being in, and I think some of our managers and players have felt they (rather then the club itself) were above the Europa. I get the feeling that Ange would relish any European competition.

I’d still like us to finish 4th and I still think we will, but I’m not going to be too disappointed if we end up in the Europa League. A Europa League campaign under this manager with a group of players who haven’t come from clubs who are conditioned to expect Champions League football could be a lot of fun.

 

[Styopa]

I’ve thought for weeks that I can get more excited at the prospect of having a proper go at the Europa League than I can at the prospect of us limping through 8 games in the new format of the Champions League while it simultaneously destroys our domestic campaign through fatigue. One of my biggest peeves about the club in the last decade+ is how - since Jol was sacked - we’ve never really had a go at the Europa League (or Conference League). For a while there was the notion that only the Champions League was worth being in, and I think some of our managers and players have felt they (rather then the club itself) were above the Europa. I get the feeling that Ange would relish any European competition.

I’d still like us to finish 4th and I still think we will, but I’m not going to be too disappointed if we end up in the Europa League. A Europa League campaign under this manager with a group of players who haven’t come from clubs who are conditioned to expect Champions League football could be a lot of fun.

Totally agree. I think we need to get away from this thinking that top four represents this great achievement. We need to get back to thinking that we want to finish as high up the league as posssible, and if that’s the second, third, tenth then so be it.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

For me I would be happy with Europa League football as the squad is nowhere near ready for Champions League football and remaining competitive in the EPL.

I was thinking last night, look at peak Poch when we had 8-9 guaranteed starters who beyond spending insane sums of money couldn’t be upgraded. They were the core of our first team and took us to our best EPL finishes. What we lacked under Poch was depth, outside of the first XI the drop in quality was significant.

Whereas if you look at the squad now we’ve the opposite issue to what Poch faced. From a first XI perspective we’ve for me only 5 guaranteed starters and those are Vicario, Udogie, Van de Ven, Romero and Porro.

It’s like we’ve gone from one extreme to another. Under Poch we had a first XI that needed minor tinkering and several competent squad players to support them. Whereas now we’ve a decent squad in terms of depth but a serious lack of quality in the first XI.

We’ve gone from having a world class keeper, a ridiculously good defence, a dominating central midfield, creativity and two world class forwards to having a very promising keeper and youthful defence but a noticeable drop off in quality in central midfield and whopping issues in attack. We also lack like for like competition in defence.

Lloris, Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Modric, Eriksen, Ali, Bale, Son, Kane - these were all fantastic players but we lacked adequate competition.

Whereas now we have Vicario, Porro, Romero, Van de Ven and Udogie - a very promising future. In midfield Sarr has a very bright future but the others whether it be the fact they’re annoyingly inconsistent or yet to rediscover their pre injury form… I just don’t look at any of them and think they’re as good as what we had under Poch. The front line - Son is a Spurs legend but he’s not the player he once was. The rest whether it be they’re not the finished article or having major flaws in their game…. as per central midfield, none of them would get in a peak Poch side.

Until we can bring in competition for our full backs, overhaul our central midfield and wide forwards and bring in an actual striker then we’re not ready for competing in both the Champions League and EPL.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

I’ve thought for weeks that I can get more excited at the prospect of having a proper go at the Europa League than I can at the prospect of us limping through 8 games in the new format of the Champions League while it simultaneously destroys our domestic campaign through fatigue. One of my biggest peeves about the club in the last decade+ is how - since Jol was sacked - we’ve never really had a go at the Europa League (or Conference League). For a while there was the notion that only the Champions League was worth being in, and I think some of our managers and players have felt they (rather then the club itself) were above the Europa. I get the feeling that Ange would relish any European competition.

I’d still like us to finish 4th and I still think we will, but I’m not going to be too disappointed if we end up in the Europa League. A Europa League campaign under this manager with a group of players who haven’t come from clubs who are conditioned to expect Champions League football could be a lot of fun.

I totally agree.

The perception of the Europa League has changed massively over the last few years.

Originally it was full of Mickey Mouse clubs and involved travelling to the darkest parts of Europe. The prize money wasn’t great and Thursday night games would often result in the players under performing in their weekend league match.

Whereas now a few things have changed. The quality of sides have noticeably increased. These are predominantly the clubs who can’t sustain a Champions League and Domestic campaign but on a 121 basis will push and at times turn over the best sides in Europe. They just can’t do it week in week out and in two competitions.

Winning the Europa League now gives the winner a Champions League place. The coefficient points that can be amassed in the Europa League aide a countries chances of achieving an additional domestic Champions League qualification place.

Now we also have the Conference League which is in effect the original Europa League… consists of a few decent sides but predominantly the riff raff that no one wants to spend a Thursday night visiting and risking injury to their key players.

 

[rossdapep]

Besides the extra money, which we won’t use anyway, I honestly don’t see the positives of being in the Champions League next season. We don’t have the squad quality to be able to rotate between CL & PL and I don’t think our summer business will bring us close enough to do that either. The new format is brutal as well. 8 mid week games and potentially another 2 play off games if we failed to qualify outright.

Whilst the EL follows the same new format, we would be able to rotate as the level of opposition will be much worse. We also currently have pretty much no path way for our academy players. Keeping the likes of Dorrington, Phillips, Devine, Moore, Donley, Lankshear and Veliz around for the “group” stage would be hugely beneficial for their development.

Im happy to be proven wrong on this but like I said at the top of the post, I really don’t see the benefit of playing in the CL next season besides the money. I don’t accept simply playing in the best European competition a viable reason. We qualified too soon under Conte and it did us no good. I’d much rather give our squad and talented academy an opportunity to put themselves forward into Ange’s thinking.

I think we should take any step as a way of growing.

So CL would be tough but we can improve in time.

However, I completely agree about the EL.

It's a chance for players to get game time and grow. The EL really did present Kane with an opening and it will for others too.

Also, players who are on the fringes will get game time to stay sharp and we need as many games as possible so that players learn Ange's methods faster and it becomes well ingrained.

I also don't buy into this Thursday-Sunday difficulty theory.

Villa are 4th. Liverpool were top. Leverkusen are flying and countless evidence in the past suggests if the players have the right mentality, more games and a tight schedule is not a hurdle as it often gets stated.

Also, it didn't harm us under Pochs second season and third season. We just didn't do enough in the comp.

 

[Dov67]

I remember a time for many years when making the top 4 was like the be all and end all. Making it meant happy times, missing out felt like a kick in the balls, particularly when we were close and the goonscum took our place……..Martin Fulop, Chelsea/Bayern, Lasgnagate etc etc

Last night’s performance upset and pissed me off, not because of what it mean for our chance of getting into the CL or not, but because it was so f****g predictable after the Villa game. We’ve been doing this shit for years under multiple managers.

I would like to be in next years CL, obviously. But if we are not I won’t see it as a disaster. As people have already said, we’ve been in the CL many times, but until the general mentality inside the club changes, to the point where a result like last night is seen as a utter freak rather than sadly predictable and predicted, CL football is not something that holds the same excitement for me as it once did.

I know many would disagree, but I’d sacrifice years of CL football for just one lousy Caraboa Cup that I could celebrate with my son, who’s never seen us win a trophy, not to mention my father who is old, frail, not in good health

 

[TEESSIDE1]

I think we should take any step as a way of growing.

So CL would be tough but we can improve in time.

However, I completely agree about the EL.

It's a chance for players to get game time and grow. The EL really did present Kane with an opening and it will for others too.

Also, players who are on the fringes will get game time to stay sharp and we need as many games as possible so that players learn Ange's methods faster and it becomes well ingrained.

I also don't buy into this Thursday-Sunday difficulty theory.

Villa are 4th. Liverpool were top. Leverkusen are flying and countless evidence in the past suggests if the players have the right mentality, more games and a tight schedule is not a hurdle as it often gets stated.

Also, it didn't harm us under Pochs second season and third season. We just didn't do enough in the comp.

Thursday - Sunday. Again, this is an area where clubs over time have evolved. When the competition first started many clubs didn’t have the depth to sustain a challenge on multiple fronts, whereas now they do.

Bayern Leverkusen make multiple changes but still have sufficient quality to progress although they were very fortunate against Qarabag.

Liverpool have a massive squad but for me they have been quite fortuitous to do well in multiple competitions. I’m not knocking what they achieved as it’s been outstanding but for me they’ve been lucky in the sense that they’ve had an injury crisis and the ‘kids’ have had to step up and hit the ground running. The kids have excelled but I bet even Liverpool wouldn’t have put any money on so many of them making the step up and so quickly. May be they’re built differently mentally to other young players but expecting them to come in and perform at the level needed was very wishful thinking. It’s bordering on a miracle that things have worked out this way.

Villa - they’ve a pretty decent squad who can compete across two competitions. I like how they rotate between a 352 and a 343/433… they’ve the depth to play more than one system whereas we don’t.

But yes, I accept your point that clubs can now manage Thursday - Sunday but as mentioned earlier, this is due to clubs now having bigger squads and depth in terms of quality to compete on multiple fronts. Whereas several years ago they didn’t.

In contrast to the clubs managing this there’s the teams who have only recently got back into Europe and flopped e.g. Brighton and Newcastle - neither have the squad to fight on both fronts and it’s showed this season.

 

[Blake Griffin]

10 games left. 6 of these are West Ham (A), Newcastle (A), City (H), Arsenal (H), Liverpool (A), Chelsea (A).

Losses to Wolves and Fulham could prove very costly at the end of the season.

as long as we win the other four - luton(h), forest(h), burnley(h) and shef utd(a), then a handful of points from the above should be enough to at least fend off utd. maybe need a few more for 4th but villa's run isn't easy either.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I’ve thought for weeks that I can get more excited at the prospect of having a proper go at the Europa League than I can at the prospect of us limping through 8 games in the new format of the Champions League while it simultaneously destroys our domestic campaign through fatigue. One of my biggest peeves about the club in the last decade+ is how - since Jol was sacked - we’ve never really had a go at the Europa League (or Conference League). For a while there was the notion that only the Champions League was worth being in, and I think some of our managers and players have felt they (rather then the club itself) were above the Europa. I get the feeling that Ange would relish any European competition.

I’d still like us to finish 4th and I still think we will, but I’m not going to be too disappointed if we end up in the Europa League. A Europa League campaign under this manager with a group of players who haven’t come from clubs who are conditioned to expect Champions League football could be a lot of fun.

Was listening to Anges biographer on LWOS, and he said that Ange will never prioritise a cup position over the league.

He said that Ange wants to win the league wherever he is, and if we do well in a cup that is an added bonus.

If he thinks we can improve our league position at the weekend, then he will absolutely play nothing but reserves on the Tuesday.

He is not a cup manager and he has zero desire to be one.

Whatever European competition we are in, we will bomb out in the first knockout round.

Might as well do that in the European competition that:

A. Has less games
B. Has more money
C. Has the prestige to actually attract players (and keep them)

 

[tommo84]

Was listening to Anges biographer on LWOS, and he said that Ange will never prioritise a cup position over the league.

He said that Ange wants to win the league wherever he is, and if we do well in a cup that is an added bonus.

If he thinks we can improve our league position at the weekend, then he will absolutely play nothing but reserves on the Tuesday.

He is not a cup manager and he has zero desire to be one.

Whatever European competition we are in, we will bomb out in the first knockout round.

Might as well do that in the European competition that:

A. Has less games
B. Has more money
C. Has the prestige to actually attract players (and keep them)

Well that all sounds depressingly futile because we ain’t winning the league as long as Pep is at City.

 

[Mattspurs1982]

West Ham beating Villa so far. Feels wrong to be semi cheering them on

 

[Styopa]

Whatever European competition we are in, we will bomb out in the first knockout round.

Thanks for the heads up, won’t bother to tune in next year

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Thanks for the heads up, won’t bother to tune in next year

You're right.

We'll probably win them like we have all those other times over the past 70 years

 

[Wolvesyid]

Have to disagree about the getting into the europa league. All the rubbish teams play in conference league now. If Donley and Dorrinfton are good enough for the league cup they’re not good enough for the EL.

 

[Mr Pink]

We've been strong at home, in the main.

We've done well away at City, the Emirates, and OT but so many other places we've struggled.

Dont expect much at Anfield but we must improve to take points at West Ham and Newcastle next month.

Tough places to go but we need to learn from last night.

 

[piedpiper]

When did we ever take the Europa seriously, the players often looked like they didn’t want to be there

Yeah based on club direction.... and a combination of an imbalanced squad.

 

[Misfit]

I want CL if we can get it. If not then EL next season with no CL dropouts etc is something the club needs to actively target and go all-out to win. Enough of this deliberately half-arsing opportunities in front of us for promises tomorrow which never ever fecking arrive.

 

[SUIYHA]

If we end up in the Europa because we weren't good enough for CL then so be it, but let's not pretend that it's better for the club if we don't qualify for the CL.

EL is much harder to win than people think. Too many of our fan base seem to expect that we'd be one of the favourites if we only just gave it a go. Results like last night show that even if we were drawn against a team no stronger than Fulham, we are still young and naive enough that we can get picked off and badly beaten when having an off day - a 20 minute spell like the one either side of half-time yesterday in a EL game and that's the entire tie and campaign over.

The only upside to it I see is the opportunity to blood youngsters that aren't ready for PL minutes. If we'd been in the Champions League in 2014/15 then I doubt Kane would have been getting the starts or goals to justify putting him in the first team in the league games.

 

[dricha1]

I’m sorry but a club of our financial standing should be in the Champions League. We were there only 2 seasons ago. With Utd and Chelsea both struggling it would be criminal if we were not able to take their place.

We are 6pts above Utd and Villa have to negotiate thurs-sun football for a few more weeks. There is no excuse if we don’t finish top 4.

 

[EQP]

If we end up in the Europa because we weren't good enough for CL then so be it, but let's not pretend that it's better for the club if we don't qualify for the CL.

EL is much harder to win than people think. Too many of our fan base seem to expect that we'd be one of the favourites if we only just gave it a go. Results like last night show that even if we were drawn against a team no stronger than Fulham, we are still young and naive enough that we can get picked off and badly beaten when having an off day - a 20 minute spell like the one either side of half-time yesterday in a EL game and that's the entire tie and campaign over.

The only upside to it I see is the opportunity to blood youngsters that aren't ready for PL minutes. If we'd been in the Champions League in 2014/15 then I doubt Kane would have been getting the starts or goals to justify putting him in the first team in the league games.

I doubt very much that Ange will see it like that at all. He's working to change the culture and instill an actual winning mentality.

Saying that the only upside of a European competition is the opportunity to " blood youngsters " is the antithesis of what he's been extolling at every press conference.

If we qualify for the EL, I fully expect Ange will want to win that competition as well. Which again, is what we want.

If younger players happen to make their breakthrough as a result of our participation in the competition, that will be an added bonus.