The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - Conan the Barbarian! 3rd July 2014

Syn_13 · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
He's got a touch of pure class about him IMO, showed against United that he can be superb defensively, needs a chance to show it in a settled, well drilled side. We havent even seen Vertonghen and Vlad play together yet!

Well, Poch was a CB in his time so should know a thing or two about defending. Plus, he loves attacking, technical football. It's a perfect combination to help Vlad improve. He's similar to Vertonghen in that he's technically great for a defender but needs to work on some defensive attributes. Surely that's a good fit for Poch.

DaSpurs · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
This is all he needed to do.

Physically yes, but he also needs a mentality shift. It's just not enough atm.

Hoddle&Waddle · Jul 3, 2014

whitelanefever said:
Not disagreeing with you about technical ability.. what I am saying is we're looking at CB's regardless & if we are then that's who I would go for, the thing is if we presume Verthongen is going to be a starting CB then we have to look at what works as a defensive pairing & for me they are to similar to work, they both like to press, which means you can't have a pair that both's natural instincts is to press.. you need 1 of them to drop off in that scenario.. then you have a lack of areal commandment with Jan & Vlad as heading isn't eithers strongest point, then if we are going to be playing a highline we need at least 1 CB with more pace than Jan & Vlad have.
I like Chiriches & yes technically he has more ability than Nastasic however as a CB's first priority is defending then Nastasic is far better at defending than Vlad hands down & Van Djik has way more technical ability than Vlad & better in the air & quicker. If we are bringing in Cb then we have to look at what will work best & compliment with who we have at the club already.

I dont really agree that Vertonghen is weak in the air though. He's 6ft 3" and was pretty dominant in his first season, yet for some reason he just didnt look at the races last season.

Hoddle&Waddle · Jul 3, 2014

DaSpurs said:
Physically yes, but he also needs a mentality shift. It's just not enough atm.

Care to explain or you gonna leave us hanging?

whitelanefever · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
I dont really agree that Vertonghen is weak in the air though. He's 6ft 3" and was pretty dominant in his first season, yet for some reason he just didnt look at the races last season.

I do think he's poor at dealing with crosses & for his size he should be a heck of a lot better, to me he's to easily outmuscled when dealing with crosses & set pieces, he's a terrific footballer with the ball at his feet however his instincts in spotting danger isn't great, he seems to be far to pre-occupied with pulling the oppositions shirt than going & winning a header cleanly.

DaSpurs · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
Care to explain or you gonna leave us hanging?

He's not the type to get stuck in, which is not good against some of the heading ability in the box in the Prem. Far too weak in the air for his size, and uses his body far too rarely to remove a ball from the opponent in preference of his feet. Granted, he'd face those aerial duels less in a Poch system, but it could still ship vital points at needed moments if the opposition does make it to our end/gets a corner or free kick. My hope is that with the added mass, it will also add an extra element of confidence that will prompt him to add to the physical aspect of his game.

But as of now, from what I've seen, I must say I'm not surprised we appear to be searching for a new first choice RCB.

Hoddle&Waddle · Jul 3, 2014

DaSpurs said:
He's not the type to get stuck in, which is not good against some of the heading ability in the box in the Prem. Far too weak in the air for his size, and uses his body far too rarely to remove a ball from the opponent in preference of his feet. Granted, he'd face those aerial duels less in a Poch system, but it could still ship vital points at needed moments if the opposition does make it to our end/gets a corner or free kick. My hope is that with the added mass, it will also add an extra element of confidence that will prompt him to add to the physical aspect of his game.

But as of now, from what I've seen, I must say I'm not surprised we appear to be searching for a new first choice RCB.

I wouldnt say he didnt get stuck in, the guy broke his nose twice trying to win the ball. Most of your points can be put down to adjusting to a more physical league rather than a mentality problem. It's all opinions, personally I prefer a footballing CB over signing a slightly better clogger than Dawson. I've given up on us ever winning league titles, I just want to be entertained with good, entertaining football these days.

DaSpurs · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
I wouldnt say he didnt get stuck in, the guy broke his nose twice trying to win the ball. Most of your points can be put down to adjusting to a more physical league rather than a mentality problem. It's all opinions, personally I prefer a footballing CB over signing a slightly better clogger than Dawson. I've given up on us ever winning league titles, I just want to be entertained with good, entertaining football these days.

Heard that, I like a reasoning based on realistic expectations for your side more than constantly wishing for something that isn't going to happen.

I too don't prefer the clogger types, but I think the modern CB can be a hybrid of the two. Vlad however, was known for not being particularly physical and poor in the air in Romania before he came to our league, so unfortunately if anything he's only improved, and isn't merely adjusting.

dondo · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
I dont really agree that Vertonghen is weak in the air though. He's 6ft 3" and was pretty dominant in his first season, yet for some reason he just didnt look at the races last season.

6 2 according to Wikipedia had to look it up because I couldn't believe he was that tall thought he was below 6 feet

Spursh · Jul 3, 2014

Vlad's best performance was away to Everton IMO, where he marked Lukaku out of the game.

Of course he can improve, but he done better than expected last season and has the makings of an excellent modern day CB

I still feel we need at least 1 more CB as I think Dawson & Kaboul will go, but Vlad will only get better with Poch's coaching

Hoddle&Waddle · Jul 3, 2014

DaSpurs said:
Heard that, I like a reasoning based on realistic expectations for your side more than constantly wishing for something that isn't going to happen.

I too don't prefer the clogger types, but I think the modern CB can be a hybrid of the two. Vlad however, was known for not being particularly physical and poor in the air in Romania before he came to our league, so unfortunately if anything he's only improved, and isn't merely adjusting.

TBF Lamela has struggled with the physical side more than Vlad, yet most would have him straight in the team next season. All I ask is Vlad be given the same opportunity under a Manager that knows what hes doing.

DaSpurs · Jul 3, 2014

Spursh said:
Vlad's best performance was away to Everton IMO, where he marked Lukaku out of the game.

Of course he can improve, but he done better than expected last season and has the makings of an excellent modern day CB

I still feel we need at least 1 more CB as I think Dawson & Kaboul will go, but Vlad will only get better with Poch's coaching

Completely agree with all of this, just don't think he's ready to be first choice on Aug 16th.

Hoddle&Waddle said:
TBF Lamela has struggled with the physical side more than Vlad, yet most would have him straight in the team next season. All I ask is Vlad be given the same opportunity under a Manager that knows what hes doing.

Agree with that, I do think the double-standards being thrown about all the new players is a bit ridiculous. And I'm certainly not "writing Vlad off," just as above I don't think he's quite ready to be first choice in the EPL.

Lufti · Jul 3, 2014

Hoddle&Waddle said:
TBF Lamela has struggled with the physical side more than Vlad, yet most would have him straight in the team next season. All I ask is Vlad be given the same opportunity under a Manager that knows what hes doing.

You're right but at the same time, you'd expect a centre back to be more physical than a winger. I mean no one would accept someone of Lennon's stature at CB

spurs9 · Jul 3, 2014

This is why teams by from foreign teams rather than English teams:

Davies - 10-12m
Livermore - 8m
Snodgrass - 8m
McCormack - 10m

Martins Indi - 6.8m
Garay - 12m
Tadic - 8.6m
Drmic - 3.5m

Hoddle&Waddle · Jul 3, 2014

Lufti said:
You're right but at the same time, you'd expect a centre back to be more physical than a winger. I mean no one would accept someone of Lennon's stature at CB

Well, I meant struggled physically in their respective positions. I take your point that you wouldnt expect a defender to struggle with physicality, but I have seen it before, Koscielny to name one (doing very well now). Also 24 is still fairly young for a CB aand I fully expect Vlad to get stronger naturally as he fills out and get his 'man strength' over the next season. I'll stop ranting about Vlad now! Peace

stevenurse · Jul 3, 2014

spurs9 said:
This is why teams by from foreign teams rather than English teams:

Davies - 10-12m
Livermore - 8m
Snodgrass - 8m
McCormack - 10m

Martins Indi - 6.8m
Garay - 12m
Tadic - 8.6m
Drmic - 3.5m

Been saying this for ages, and this is what annoys me about the English national team more than anything. Anyway, that's for another thread...

WiganSpur · Jul 3, 2014

Spursh said:
Vlad's best performance was away to Everton IMO, where he marked Lukaku out of the game.

Of course he can improve, but he done better than expected last season and has the makings of an excellent modern day CB

I still feel we need at least 1 more CB as I think Dawson & Kaboul will go, but Vlad will only get better with Poch's coaching

OT as well was an outstanding performance. He's a good defender and actually heads pretty well considering his size and build.

dagraham · Jul 3, 2014

Shawcross. Caulker. A way overpriced Lovren (who I'm not convinced is even that good). Where the fuck is our scouting network?

wpd659 · Jul 3, 2014

dagraham said:
Shawcross. Caulker. A way overpriced Lovren (who I'm not convinced is even that good). Where the fuck is our scouting network?

Maybe say it again? I didnt catch the first 3 times u posted

dagraham · Jul 3, 2014

wpd659 said:
Maybe say it again? I didnt catch the first 3 times u posted

Phone is doing strange things...

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