The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,135
100% they'd rather be on the bench than not in the matchday squad at all. If they are on the bench, they at least have a sniff of getting some minutes, which is more than what they are getting atm.

If we're comfortably winning a game, my hope would be that Poch uses one of the subs to get a kid on, instead of giving a senior player those 10-15 minutes.
He hasn't done so yet.
We are in danger of slipping into No-Mans-Land.
Being neither willing or able to buy top class established talent
for whatever reason, parsimony or philosophy
nor seriously promoting our own
and buying moderate but affordable 'youth blockers'.
We have been in the top three for three years
and done increasingly well in the Champions' League
but seem to be at the cross-roads.
We need to revive the faith in buying and promoting young talent
Dele and Harry, Winks, Foyth and Davison Sanchez are outstanding examples
which has got us where we are today.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
42
I think the English clubs are going to keep losing their best talent to foreign clubs unless we can be creative and find a way of keeping them happy. They say we have a good relationship with Ajax. Why don't we loan them a Edwards or a Bennett's as part of the De Ligt deal. Give them a year or 2 getting first team and European football. If they get games then we can bring them back in to our squad. If they aren't good enough at least you can hopefully get some money for them and move them on.
 

coy-spurs1882

Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
888
I think the English clubs are going to keep losing their best talent to foreign clubs unless we can be creative and find a way of keeping them happy. They say we have a good relationship with Ajax. Why don't we loan them a Edwards or a Bennett's as part of the De Ligt deal. Give them a year or 2 getting first team and European football. If they get games then we can bring them back in to our squad. If they aren't good enough at least you can hopefully get some money for them and move them on.
why would ajax accept a loan deal? they have the money to buy alternatives. i think it is a bit arrogant to think that they would train players for us
 

Anuth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
344
I've never seen anything to suggest that Onomah is one of our best prospects ever. He may go on to have a Jake Livermore style career but even that may be beyond him.

I can't believe people are actually trying to claim that Poch is holding back our youth. Poch has proven time and time again that he has no problem giving youth a chance. The problem our youth players have no is that we're a very good team. Take Onomah again for example. He isn't as good as Dier, Dembele, Sissoko, Wanyama, Winks for central midfield. And he isn't as good as Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela, Moura as one of the players behind Kane. So how on earth is he being messed around? Are you seriously suggesting we should play inferior youth players just to give them a chance? What happens when we then throw away points because of that and Poch gets the boot for not qualifying for the CL?
No one said we should play youth players instead of those players. I don't understand where this idea came from. Don't get me wrong. I like Poch but I don't agree with this sentence "Poch has proven time and time again that he has no problem giving youth a chance" with Espanyol and Southampton maybe because he had no choice. But with us, he did nothing to prove that.

Against Apoel which was no meaning match, we could start KWP instead of playing him 20 minutes at LB and that because Rose needed to come off. We should have given Sterling maybe 15-20 minutes but no we gave him 2 minutes.

Re- Onomah, how do you know he's not as good as Winks for CM? he's never played there for the first team.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
42
why would ajax accept a loan deal? they have the money to buy alternatives. i think it is a bit arrogant to think that they would train players for us
Maybe it's a bit arrogant but we have some of the best youngsters in world football who have winning tournaments. Alot of teams in Europe would be interested in sure. It was last summer there was talk Ajax would pay a big fee to land Edwards so I would think they would accept a loan deal or a set price buy back like Barca do with alot of there youngsters
 

coy-spurs1882

Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
888
Maybe it's a bit arrogant but we have some of the best youngsters in world football who have winning tournaments. Alot of teams in Europe would be interested in sure. It was last summer there was talk Ajax would pay a big fee to land Edwards so I would think they would accept a loan deal or a set price buy back like Barca do with alot of there youngsters
i think they want to sign them permanently instead. having a feeder club would make things easier, although our partnership with roda fc didn't work as we expected.
 

SFCS

Active Member
Joined
May 17, 2013
Messages
590
Very true. I don't understand why people would expect these guys to hang around. Onomah and Edwards are easily 2 of the best players I've ever seen in the academy, and what I would consider elite talent. When they were 17/18/19 they stayed, believing the hype of the manager and that under his tutelage they would be depending on how you look at it a)good enough to play PL football or b) given a chance if they were good enough. Whether you believe they are good enough or not now, why would an academy player who is 17/18 now, trust staying at this club, when they look at those two. They know they will either be seen as not good enough no matter how good they are, or believe the club will not continue to develop them. If these guys aren't going to make it, it will take a miracle for them to make it. Good faith only stretches so far.
To be fair, Onomah was given a number of opportunities. It's hard to say that he wouldn't have had more either but iirc he chose to go on loan this season instead.

I totally agree with you on wanting to see more players come through and get opportunities but to play devil's advocate a bit and attempt to see Pochettino's side.

There was ITK awhile ago saying that Pochettino prefers to keep young players at the club rather than on loan to avoid them picking up habits and, presumably, teach them how he wants them to play. If you look at all the signings that have arrived under Pochettino, the ones that hit the ground running nearly all arrived in June/July, giving them a full preseason. I'm thinking of Wanyama, Davies, Trippier, Alli and Toby. Sanchez is the only exception I can think of, even a great player like Son struggled in the early days after arriving late. Clearly senior players need a month or so to adapt in preseason and if they don't get it they're then needing more time to perform at their best so it stands to reason that younger players, who are still learning their own game, will need a lot of time too.

With that in mind, how long have these young players been considered ready to be tested out in the first team? If we set the bar at 6months that would rule out a fair chunk of them, I'd imagine, and as we've seen, it's taken some established senior players that sort of timeframe to really start to perform for us. Once you've ruled them out you're left with KWP, Winks, Edwards and Onomah. Winks was pushed through, Onomah wanted a loan, KWP definitely should have played more and Edwards... well who knows what's going on there. 1 in 4 aint great but it's not bad either.

Maybe going to Germany is the better option but there are some good opportunities coming up. A lot of first teamers are going to the World Cup so there's going to be preseason opportunities whilst they're rested after and we've seen from Alli, Mason and Kane that impressing the boss in preseason is a great way to kickstart your Spurs career. In addition, we'll no longer be playing "home" games at Wembley and as it stands, other than potentially another attacker, we're mostly being linked with replacements for first 11 players who are leaving.
 
Joined
Feb 1, 2015
Messages
195
I was thinking of Kirby too.

You could argue that Milos was the original pioneer realising that there were chances in the Bundesliga. He came back from winning the u20 World Cup and saw no sign of chances here and left. Now he appears to be going to the actual World Cup this year. Not the first player to come back from winning the most prestigious youth tournament, returning with hope, confidence and enthusisam to have ti sapped out of them


I guess this comes down to the age old question what is elite? And if a player is 'elite' will the actually get a chance or will we be relying on ridiculous amount of fortune to discover these players. When arguably the best striker to play in the PL after Henry and Shearer, only come through, due to the absolute bombing of signings coinciding with us playing in a competition that allowed us to try out backup players, I don't know why anyone has any faith that the elite will be given a chance. If we were in the CL Kane would not have been playing for us, and would not have been considered elite, but his abiltiy would have been the same.

KWP has won 2 MOTMs in his only 2 Premier League matches, both games he only started in because there were no other options available short of playing guys out of position. That only happened twice in the whole season and he got 2 starts. Were either of those RBs fit, we may not have seen him at all. When someone who has the ability to get MOTMs in his only games, why does anyone have any faith that the 'elite' will get a chance?

Winks is another who benefited off injuries showing he is good enough. Onomah is one of the best players I have seen at academy level, however he won't get a chance unless 4/5 players ahead of him get injured. If that happened, and he got his chance and played well, the line will be, we will always bring through the elite. It's ridiculous.

Everyone knows that not all players make it. But while we are making a claim that only the best of the best will get a chance, Fergie the greatest manager of the PL era, also brought through Welbeck, Cleverly, Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher, P Neville, and Butt. None of these players are elite or were elite at youth level, and Fergie didn't think that players needed to be elite, to be thought as useful contributors to a PL dominating team with high expectations, so why does Poch have this misguided belief.



I don't get this bite in the arse comment. Why does a player have to end up being a Messi, Pogba or Ronaldo to be considered as biting us on the arse. Surely any academy player that could be good enough to have played top level football that we let go for minimal money whilst spending large amounts of money for players that end up being on a similar or lesser level to the one released is biting us on the ass. I know it's been mentioned before, but Veljkovic is a player about to go to a World Cup and he's the same age year group as Winks. He won the u19 Euros iirc and u20 World Cup and was in the TOTT. When it was suggested 3 years ago I think, that he could be our backup DM, instead of James McCarthy, who people wanted to spend 25m on at the time, people laughed. I can't understand how people can be willing to spend so much money on average players and not try our own out. McCarthy, was a 7 then and he's a 6 now. I saw Milos mentioned in an article by a blogger as someone who Liverpool could try and buy next year. Surely losing out on millions whether it wasting it on spending or wasting it by not maximising their value from selling, we've been bitten on the arse.
Absolutely spot on.

In my opinion,

KWP - a better right back than Aurier
Onomah - a better centre midfielder than Sissoko
Edwards - a better player than N'Koudou

and yet it looks like we've fucked up with at least two of them. I really am starting to fear for our academy players - something has to change.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,135
All we are saying is give youth a chance

Two, one-two-three-four!
Ev'rybody's talking 'bout
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m
All we are saying is give youth a chance
All we are saying is give youth a chance

Hit it
C'mon, ev'rybody's talking about
Ministers, sinisters, banisters and canisters
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Popeyes and bye-bye, bye-byes
All we are saying is give youth a chance
All we are saying is give youth a chance

Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking 'bout
Revolution, evolution, masturbation, flagellation, regulation, integrations
Meditations, United Nations, congratulations
All we are saying is give youth a chance
All we are saying is give youth a chance

Ev'rybody's talking 'bout
Poch and Dano
New way, true way, youth way, white and blue way,
Yids and quids, academies and tragedies
All we are saying is give youth a chance
All we are saying is give YOUTH A CHANCE.

With thanks to John and Aaron Lennon,Yoko and Sissoko.
 

loaderspurs

Active Member
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
526
In an ideal world we would build relationships with clubs in Europe where we could send young players, clubs such as Ajax, Monchengladbach etc. As some of you have said though, why on earth would these clubs take players on loan and develop them with nothing in it for themselves. It's a tough one, could an option be to build a good relationship with these clubs, like we seem to have with ajax, and sell them players with potential, a la Bennetts, Onomah etc but with buyback clauses? It could even be with low fees to sweeten the deal for those clubs. That way they get a good level player for a low fee that they can either turn into a first team player, sell on for a decent fee (profitable for the club), or they get bought back by Spurs (also for profit). Basically what City did with Iheanacho at Leicester, who has a 25m(?) buy back fee. If he develops well they can get a decent striker for most likely below the market value, or if he doesn't they have at least already made c. £10m profit on an academy player.

Obviously this is not ideal is we end up spending chunks of money that we could have developed internally and made into first team members for no cost, but as that isn't happening and we're starting to lose these players for nothing...
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
5,653
I really appreciate the insight and knowledge on the youth game posted in this thread and i think its safe to say everyone wants to say our youth players progress but there are a 2 questions i would ask:

1) Do you promote a youth player over a "better" squad player simply because they are a youth player?
Surely we're trying to create a meritocracy where the players that work the hardest and show the best performance will be the ones that get the opportunities. If not, then are we not simply lowering the bar and rewarding mediocrity on the basis of giving youth a chance? If the player is good enough then yes put them in. KWP has shown when he's given the chance that he performs and I personally think he should start ahead of Aurier if not Trippier too next season. But Onomah hasn't shown at senior level that he's better than Dembele or Wanyama or even Sissoko so i'm not sure what the rush to put him into the team is.

2) We'd obviously prefer to not have to buy expensive players when we have good youth options but do you avoid transfers of players that could potentially improve your team simply because you have a youth option who also may improve your squad ? Clubs nowadays want to sweep up all the talent and even though we have a Kane, you can still bet if there was a chance of us getting another top striker on a good deal we'd be making that deal. You have to account for the unforeseeable circumstances and having 2 options is better than one. We've had great potential players that didnt make it at Spurs or even at their new clubs so we can't assume that a player will always have a continuous level of improvement, so players just stop improving and then we're stuck because we've banked on a player that isnt as good as we thought he'd be. (Jenas as an example)?
 

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
5,653
In an ideal world we would build relationships with clubs in Europe where we could send young players, clubs such as Ajax, Monchengladbach etc. As some of you have said though, why on earth would these clubs take players on loan and develop them with nothing in it for themselves. It's a tough one, could an option be to build a good relationship with these clubs, like we seem to have with ajax, and sell them players with potential, a la Bennetts, Onomah etc but with buyback clauses? It could even be with low fees to sweeten the deal for those clubs. That way they get a good level player for a low fee that they can either turn into a first team player, sell on for a decent fee (profitable for the club), or they get bought back by Spurs (also for profit). Basically what City did with Iheanacho at Leicester, who has a 25m(?) buy back fee. If he develops well they can get a decent striker for most likely below the market value, or if he doesn't they have at least already made c. £10m profit on an academy player.

Obviously this is not ideal is we end up spending chunks of money that we could have developed internally and made into first team members for no cost, but as that isn't happening and we're starting to lose these players for nothing...
I call this the Real Madrid method. Bring a player up to Championship/low Prem level, sell them with a buyback, see if they improve and if they do, buy them back. If they don't you've sold a player. (Isco, Morata, Vallejo, Lucas Vasquez.

The problem for us is that we don't have the huge sway that Real do in that everyone in the world would choose Real over almost any club if they had the chance to play for them.
 

Cornpattbuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
3,404
Very true. I don't understand why people would expect these guys to hang around. Onomah and Edwards are easily 2 of the best players I've ever seen in the academy, and what I would consider elite talent. When they were 17/18/19 they stayed, believing the hype of the manager and that under his tutelage they would be depending on how you look at it a)good enough to play PL football or b) given a chance if they were good enough. Whether you believe they are good enough or not now, why would an academy player who is 17/18 now, trust staying at this club, when they look at those two. They know they will either be seen as not good enough no matter how good they are, or believe the club will not continue to develop them. If these guys aren't going to make it, it will take a miracle for them to make it. Good faith only stretches so far.

Re: Tanganga and the other CBs, we have an absolute plethora of CBs coming through at the moment, I'd hope at least one of those make it. If news is correct that Brown may be released that may be a blessing in disguise for him, as he could find himself a decent club and do well, rather than stay and stagnate. Between Tanganga, Lyons-Foster and Eyoma and even CCV there are plenty of talented players for the maanger to take his pick and bring one through.

Speaking of CCV, I was at the 120 club as a gift on Sunday in Wembley (my time to sit among the rich and attempt to not look out of place) and I was sitting next to 2 Ipswich fans. They were waxing lyrical about him, really wishing that we don't rate him so they can buy him off us. Couldn't speak highly enough. I think he's had a good season overall across the two clubs in the Championship, hope he can get a PL loan, or even another Champ loan.

Also while I was there, KWP came up as he was MOTM, and I got a pic with him and of course told him how long I've rated him for. Which no doubt probably came out as something like 'I've been watching you since you were young':banghead:. Wished him the best of luck and he was very polite. Was chuffed for him.


If the best of our academy players were given chances they could range between either being of Sissoko's level and be able to perform a very basic squad role or be one of the best players in our starting eleven. As you say they would save money on fees and wages, and make money when we sell them, meaning we can invest more money on the best of the best. We paid 25m for Aurier, and will have to invest at least a season's worth of patience for him to maybe come good, but could only invest 2 PL games in KWP who in his two proved himself. And yet, people are still questioning whether or not we can go into next season with KWP as one of the 2 RBs but would be happy going in with Aurier as one of the 2 RBs.

We could give them a chance and end up with a Lingard which is more than good enough for a squad place. Even the players who aren't elite, will be good enough to be squad players at 20/21. Going back to United, 20 year old Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher and Cleverly weren't as good as 25 year old Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher and Cleverly, and they won't be as good as when they are 30 either. Yet these players were still integrated into a title winning squad, but we are apparently know more than Fergie and subscribe to the idea that an academy player can only be used or given a chance if they somehow prove themselves as better than seasoned internationals despite not having any experience. Ludicrous.
I do agree in general but wasn't Lingard 23+ when he established himself in their squad? Surely that's almost exactly what we are trying to do? I appreciate I might be completely missing something here... it's been a long day.
 

FreddieYid

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
1,302
We've already messed around 2 of our best prospects ever in Onomah and Edwards....why would anyone else get a proper chance?
If Norwich didn’t give Edwards game time in the Championship, why is it such a surprise that we haven’t in the Prem.

I completely agree that we don’t give the youngsters enough of a chance and that Poch’s reputation is living off that first season with Kane, Mason and Bentaleb, but it’s not always so straight forward.
 
Last edited:

Ron Burgundy

SC Supporter
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
2,690
That would be a real kick in the nuts - what’s the point of spending time and money on these youth teams if they either (a) stand no chance of getting in the first team and (b) have no patience if they’re at all concerned they won’t.

Surely Bennetts had as good a chance as anyone? A real pity if true
 

FreddieYid

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
1,302
why would ajax accept a loan deal? they have the money to buy alternatives. i think it is a bit arrogant to think that they would train players for us
They had Bertrand Traore on loan from Chelsea. The question is whether our youth prospects are that much better than those already at the club that’s developing Matthijs de Ligt, Justin Kluivert, Frenkie de Jong and Kasper Dolberg, to warrant them playing in front of one of their own.
 
Top