One Step Forward One Step Back

[vegassd]

10) Yes, I was being hypothetical. You claim that our end of season slump caused our failure to finish 3rd. It was those same players who participated in that collapse who will play this season. In hindsight the only thing Tottenham could have changed to increase their points tally was to have conducted their business earlier so that their good form started earlier.

We lost to City and United the second time round, so I'm not sure if having Parker and Adebayor would have made a huge difference. Ade would have been unable to play City anyway.

As Spurs fans we all want to see some amazing signings made as early as possible, but it isn't always possible. When we do get it right (Berbatov, Modric, Sandro) we seem to get it very right, and the fact we don't do it every year just shows how hard it is to do.

11) If you qualify for the champions league by spending a little more than you will not become insolventas the reward more than negate the costs.

The word "if" is the killer here. Of course it will be worth it if you can become regular CL qualifiers. But that is far from assured. The only thing you can be sure about after spending lots of money on players is that you no longer have that money.

If we end up 4th in the league this season (1 step forward, 1 step back) I will be very happy!

 

[StartingPrice]

Most of our argument is a matter of opinion at the moment and only the upcoming season will reveal who is correct. So by responding to some of these points I think we would just end up going in circles.

However, I take issue with the ones I have quoted above:

4) If accuse me of assuming that the new Chelsea signings will do well this season then I can aim the same argument here. You are assuming Sigurdsson and Vertonghen will hit it off. Pot calling the kettle black?

7) I was referring to Arsenal when I said "they finished higher in May".

10) Yes, I was being hypothetical. You claim that our end of season slump caused our failure to finish 3rd. It was those same players who participated in that collapse who will play this season. In hindsight the only thing Tottenham could have changed to increase their points tally was to have conducted their business earlier so that their good form started earlier.

11) If you qualify for the champions league by spending a little more than you will not become insolventas the reward more than negate the costs.

12) We didn't qualify for the Champions League. We knew the rules. Only the top 3 are guaranteed a place. We had a chance to finish 3rd and blew it. leaving our fate to chance.

Er...I stated my opinion, as being opposite to yours, and then you posted as though it was totally invalid and despite the fact that my opinion was that Chelsea and the Goons haven't done any transfer business that makes me think they will blow us away in the competition for CL spots, you insisted that everyone must believe that. I was offering a corrective. It is you that needs to realise opinions differ. I appreciate that some folk think they have both done brilliant business and we haven't, I'm just not buying it myself - that is my opinion.

4) No, you have misunderstood: I never said the chelsea signings would do either well or badly, I said they have come from inferior leagues, and there is no certainty that they will adjust, or adjust immediately. I always think players like those they have bought should be allowed a season to bed it. In Chelsea's case, they have bought players competing for a couple of places and with recent signing Juan Mata. Any or all of those players could take a while to bed in, and being young they could have fragile confidence. And, for the umpteenth time of saying it, they are IMVHO sexy owner signings to show he still has a big stick even if not as big as Citeh's and carefully thought out and planned signings made by a manager with a clear vision of squad building. So, pretty much how Cheslea have been as a rich mans paly-thing ever since Roman was crass enough to get rid of Mourinho.

I never actually assumed anything about Sigurdsson and Vertonghen. But I will explain the difference to youm, as you don;t seem to know youself. We aren't going to have to wait to see if Sigurdsson can adapt to the EPL - we know he can perform in the EPL. You could have more of a point with Vertonghen, if I had just assumed he will adapt to the EPL - but I tend not to do things like that, as you would find if you took the time to read back through my posts, I usual make my estimation of a player like Vertonghen coming in and then add a caveat like if he adapts. BUT, in footballing terms, he is considrably older and more experienced than any of the Chelsea signings - this is the Ajax captain, CL and international regulat at 26 YO we are talking about, here, not a boy from Brazil who has looked sexy a couple of times. I think logic dictates which one os more likely to make the adjuetment to playing in the EPL, don't you.

7) My bad, I have re-read and it is clear that you are talking about the Goons, I read it wrong - my bad.

10) I wasn't pointing out that you were being hypothetical, I was stating my opinion that the major premiss of your hypothesis was wrong. We didn't fail to finish 3rd because we lost those two games. We were in a fantastic postion up to and after the Newcastle game at the Lane, indeed, up until we were two up at the Sumerates. The relevancy of losing those two games, therefore, seems debatable, at best. It would have been nice to have put up a better show in them, but that doesn't mean we would have won them - even with all of our players.
Again, your premiss is faulty: in hindsight there are many things that could have been done differently to have improved the points tally, and it is not exactly the same now. For a start, more emphasis on core fitness and rotation would have produced fitter players in the final third of the season - we now have a manager who promises a bit of both. We could have done without a manager whoring himself out to the FA and taking his eye of the ball, I somehow don't expect that to happen again. Nor do I think AVB will be facing tax-evasion charges - and on RatKnip's last day, when we went to Anfield, having a manager there, and a fully focussed one would have made a massive difference, afaiac Liverpool were there for the taking that day, and a win there would have put us above the Goons come May.
There are many different factors involved, I just do not accept your premiss, we could and should have finished above the Goons even after losing those two games, and there is no indication whatsoever that we would have won thsoe two games is we had signed Parker and Adebayor for them - or that the delay was all Levy's fault, as you presume.

11) Yes, and if we spnd a little more and don't qualify we are facked, much like Leeds were.

12) Oh come off it. No-one expected that to happen - NO-ONE! No-one expected Chelsea to beat Barca and they surely should have lost that match (in 99 parallel universes out of a hundred they would have done), and no-one expected Chelsea to beat Bayern and they surely should have lost that match (in 99 parallel universes out of a hundred they would have done) /of. We finished 4th, in almost any other scenario imagineable we would have been playing in the CL this season. Coming over all Yoda-like in retrospect isn't happening.

 

[Legend10]

Though I've never played one I blame these Football Manager games, by all accounts they make it all so easy to buy and sell, get the team that you want and win 75 consecutive Champions Leagues, leading to a 'if I can do it why can't Levy and AVB' mentality!

 

[ShelfSide18]

Though I've never played one I blame these Football Manager games, by all accounts they make it all so easy to buy and sell, get the team that you want and win 75 consecutive Champions Leagues, leading to a 'if I can do it why can't Levy and AVB' mentality!

As a long time devotee of FM, my teenage and university years lost to this game, I would imagine that has something to do with it in a way. The thing is, it's fairly simple to buy and sell players in real life too - we could offer Inter 30 million for Leandro and then I guess the deal would sail through, as would the contract negotiations when you just press send rather than actually waste time negotiating just like you can do in FM, and guess what happens when you do that in FM, you do actually end up financially fucked on there as well, just you also have an off switch, or can start a new game.

Levy is playing this game without the luxury of quitting the game and starting again, and it amazes me how many seemingly smart people seem to think football exists in some distant world from the reality of basic economics. The kind of people who will stop shopping at Waitrose and go to Tesco to cut down on bills, then race onto SC to tell Levy to just get the deal done i.e just buy *insert name here' for whatever the price. It's fucking stunningly simple, we all loved the news that Bale signed a new deal with us - where do they think we plucked the 3 million or whatever a year it is to finance this? Maybe it came from not chucking 8/9 mill at West Ham for Parker, for not throwing stupid money at an unproven kid from Brazil?

 

[vegassd]

It's fucking stunningly simple, we all loved the news that Bale signed a new deal with us - where do they think we plucked the 3 million or whatever a year it is to finance this? Maybe it came from not chucking 8/9 mill at West Ham for Parker, for not throwing stupid money at an unproven kid from Brazil?

If I could rep you 100 times at once I would!

This is the crux of the so-called 'brinksmanship' that Levy is infamous for. He takes our one cash pot and makes the most from it. Often that means not signing a swanky player every June, but whilst the playing squad improves without risking risking our financial security I can't see a problem.

 

[StartingPrice]

If I could rep you 100 times at once I would!

This is the crux of the so-called 'brinksmanship' that Levy is infamous for. He takes our one cash pot and makes the most from it. Often that means not signing a swanky player every June, but whilst the playing squad improves without risking risking our financial security I can't see a problem.

Was gonna rep this...but that's too much risk for my liking

 

[OmarsComing]

In Levy I trust.

 

[talkshowhost86]

As a long time devotee of FM, my teenage and university years lost to this game, I would imagine that has something to do with it in a way. The thing is, it's fairly simple to buy and sell players in real life too - we could offer Inter 30 million for Leandro and then I guess the deal would sail through, as would the contract negotiations when you just press send rather than actually waste time negotiating just like you can do in FM, and guess what happens when you do that in FM, you do actually end up financially fucked on there as well, just you also have an off switch, or can start a new game.

Levy is playing this game without the luxury of quitting the game and starting again, and it amazes me how many seemingly smart people seem to think football exists in some distant world from the reality of basic economics. The kind of people who will stop shopping at Waitrose and go to Tesco to cut down on bills, then race onto SC to tell Levy to just get the deal done i.e just buy *insert name here' for whatever the price. It's fucking stunningly simple, we all loved the news that Bale signed a new deal with us - where do they think we plucked the 3 million or whatever a year it is to finance this? Maybe it came from not chucking 8/9 mill at West Ham for Parker, for not throwing stupid money at an unproven kid from Brazil?

Where's the 'round of applause' rating when you need it? Well said Shelfside.

 

[scat1620]

Let's all wait and see what our line up is on Sunday. We really have to try and understand the clubs position amongst the top four and how our money is tied up. It is not how we would like it too happen but we are getting signings done where possible and others are harder.

I am sure DL is as frustrated about the situation and is busting his balls to try and sort it all out.

I am pretty sure we will not go into the season proper with only Defoe and Kane as strikers. It is a better start team wise to the season this year as well. For me we will get the Modric saga over and then I can see movement quite quickly.

I am pretty sure we will. The season begins on Saturday, and I highly doubt that we will sign a striker between now and the registration deadline for Saturday's trip to Newcastle (something like 5pm on Friday, isn't it?). I'd therefore bet a wedge that we will go into the season proper with only Defoe and Kane as strikers. I only hope we can improve our options before 1st September, and while it's likely that we will succeed in that, it's still not at all out of the question that we might try-but-fail to sign any of the players we are targeting to improve our frontline options by then.

 

[lillywhites61]

I am pretty sure we will. The season begins on Saturday, and I highly doubt that we will sign a striker between now and the registration deadline for Saturday's trip to Newcastle (something like 5pm on Friday, isn't it?). I'd therefore bet a wedge that we will go into the season proper with only Defoe and Kane as strikers. I only hope we can improve our options before 1st September, and while it's likely that we will succeed in that, it's still not at all out of the question that we might try-but-fail to sign any of the players we are targeting to improve our frontline options by then.

I hope you are wrong and we hve Ade in by Newvastle game. Whoever else after but certainly Ade for that one. If I'm wrong then so be it and it will be very frustrating, time will tell.

 

[parklane1]

Though I've never played one I blame these Football Manager games, by all accounts they make it all so easy to buy and sell, get the team that you want and win 75 consecutive Champions Leagues, leading to a 'if I can do it why can't Levy and AVB' mentality!

This with bells on it, to many fans think because they win a few kids games on a playstation in the make believe world, then it must be as easy in the real world.

 

[Mullers]

Going into the Newcastle game with only Defoe and Kane as recognised strikers is unacceptable for a club with title winning/champions league ambitions. Last year we managed to recover after losing the first two games, this year we may not be so lucky. Having Ade and Parker available for the first two games last season may have made a difference, we have a new manager and at the moment he has one hand tied behind his back and is expected to turn water into wine.

 

[Kendall]

Going into the Newcastle game with only Defoe and Kane as recognised strikers is unacceptable for a club with title winning/champions league ambitions. Last year we managed to recover after losing the first two games, this year we may not be so lucky. Having Ade and Parker available for the first two games last season may have made a difference, we have a new manager and at the moment he has one hand tied behind his back and is expected to turn water into wine.

I agree but what can you do? Terms agreed with Adebayor but he is playing his own game of brinkmanship with City. Other deals pending the sale of Modric coming off, but Real didn't up their bid til yesterday.

AVB said himself that he's annoyed that Real have dragged their heels on the deal as it means we go into the season unprepared, but seriously, what can you do? You can't go out and splash 35m without knowing for sure you're getting the 30m you expect from a sale.

 

[Mullers]

I agree but what can you do? Terms agreed with Adebayor but he is playing his own game of brinkmanship with City. Other deals pending the sale of Modric coming off, but Real didn't up their bid til yesterday.

AVB said himself that he's annoyed that Real have dragged their heels on the deal as it means we go into the season unprepared, but seriously, what can you do? You can't go out and splash 35m without knowing for sure you're getting the 30m you expect from a sale.

With Adebayor we should have just moved onto a different target already and let him continue playing his little games with city. With Modric I think we should just say that he isn't going anywhere because the price hasn't been met, if he should go now there is no guarantee we will get a replacement in before the window shuts.

Surprised we don't have 35 million to spend, O'hara we sold for 5 million, Keane 4.35 million, Hutton 4 million, Crouch 10 million, Wilson and Pav 8 million a piece. Now I know things may not be black and white but I certainly wouldn't expect us to be struggling.

 

[kcmei]

Money

 

[vegassd]

Surprised we don't have 35 million to spend, O'hara we sold for 5 million, Keane 4.35 million, Hutton 4 million, Crouch 10 million, Wilson and Pav 8 million a piece. Now I know things may not be black and white but I certainly wouldn't expect us to be struggling.

Sig and Vert. Renewed/increased contracts. New training ground. We will have lost money on a couple of those transfers as well. Like you say, it's very far from black and white.

And it's my opinion that just because you have money doesn't mean you should spend it all. If the right player isn't available then why buy? And if we shoot our entire load on one player and they turn out to not adapt well then we end up worse off.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Its quite amazing but Levy has managed to almost identically repeat the mistakes of the Summer 2008/09 transfer window. Starting the season with 1 striker is a joke. Our star player is in limbo with no current replacement. A fairly new manager who hasnt had time to establish his ideas on an unsettled squad.

If we lose to Newcastle the pressure will be on AVB. The least you can do for a new manager is give them a solid start.

I hope it works out but he just doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. If we'd started last season with a settled squad we might even be in the Champs League this year.

 

[StartingPrice]

Going into the Newcastle game with only Defoe and Kane as recognised strikers is unacceptable for a club with title winning/champions league ambitions. Last year we managed to recover after losing the first two games, this year we may not be so lucky. Having Ade and Parker available for the first two games last season may have made a difference, we have a new manager and at the moment he has one hand tied behind his back and is expected to turn water into wine.

What if we beat the Geordies? <HOLDS BREATH, WAITS FOR DEFOE HAT-TRICK>

 

[dimiSpur]

Without wishing to be overly facetious, it's a case of one step forward and one bloody step back with this forum at the moment.

Step 1 - We get linked with someone...often not even by a recognised ITK.
Step 2 - Everyone gets stupidly excited and starts planning formations with this player in them.
Step 3 - Player doesn't sign.
Step 4 - All the people from step 2 rage against the original info demanding bloody vengeance for raising their easily raisable expectations.
Step 5 - Someone starts a thread berating Levy, AVB or Chirpy and stating that the club is not moving forward, that we lack ambition and that anyone with a calculator could organise a new stadium, a new training ground and one of the most lucrative shirt deals in the country.
Step 6 - See step 1 and start the whole sorry fucking process all over a-fucking-gain making sure not to learn anything whatsoever from the previous 5 steps.

There's been no mention of ITK in the opening post. I'd suggest discussing ITK in the relevant section. To suggest it is the ITK's fault for this negative vibe doing the rounds with all Spurs fans, not just SC members is absurd. The opening post is bang on. We've repeated the same mistakes as last year.

 

[talkshowhost86]

There's been no mention of ITK in the opening post. I'd suggest discussing ITK in the relevant section. To suggest it is the ITK's fault for this negative vibe doing the rounds with all Spurs fans, not just SC members is absurd. The opening post is bang on. We've repeated the same mistakes as last year.

I am not blaming ITKs. Far from it. I'm blaming the ludicrous expectations of most Spurs fans, which is often aided and abetted by the info coming from ITKs, but is largely lodged in some sort of deep felt sense of entitlement which I don't understand.

Maybe the reason we keep making the same 'mistakes' as you call them is because financially that's what we have to do. Are Wigan making the same 'mistakes' because they have to sell their best players and then struggle against relegation? No...they are acting as they have to due to their current situation. Levy is doing the same with us.

If you want to call them 'mistakes' then fair enough. I think the mistake is in expecting too much from a club that is, as it stands, already boxing above its weight.