John Pratt, Mark Falco, Jake Livermore

[Kinger]

Any player who comes through the ranks of a big club will have an uphill challenge as they haven't had the chance to "shine" at a smaller club (other than some loan stints). Look at the players who have "shined" at other places and struggled to put their stamp on things at Spurs such as Bentley or Malbranque, I don't think they get quite as much stick because we've seen what they're capable of at other clubs.

Because Livermore hasn't had the opportunity to regularly show what a good player he is and we're comparing him to some of the best talent in the league means that I think some of the critisism is unfair.

 

[BK007]

It surprises me Defoe dosnt get More stick at whl , never understand fans booing the shirt . We do have some stupid fans booing at half time when things ain't going right . Personaly I hate watching Defoe and crouch before him but would never boo either

I once heard a fan at WHL calling Crouch "a waste of oxygen".

Now I really couldn't stand Crouch, much like Defoe today, but as it was my first (and currently only game ) I was so excited that I was cheering for the beanpole.

 

[gilzeantheking]

It has always happened as far as I can remember (Back to the mid 60's) Then and up to the early 80's we in the main only signed top class players and regularly broke transfer records in doing so and became spoiled as a result of this. Relatively few youngsters got the chance to come through the ranks and I think we as fans got used to seeing the finished (expensive brought in) player appear in the team and when a youngster was blooded they were rarely given a fair crack of the whip by the fans.

 

[Dannyspur]

I remember stocky little John Pratt scoring an absolute peach of a goal for the reserves against bournemouth reserves at dean court. next to no back lift and the ball flying in like a bullet.

 

[Nocando]

Jake Livermore is the latest. I have seen him described on one forum (not this one) as 'shit' and the same poster said that he 'does nothing'. (My response to these comments might get me banned from that forum). If he was 'shit' and 'did nothing' he would hardly be a member of a squad that sits third in the PL. In fact, he wouldn't be able to make a living from the game.


Thanks for your time.

I posted exactly the same thing (not as long winded or as eloquent granted) about Defoe, only to be targeted by three people who negged 5 posts of mine and quite a few others who were kind/intelligent enough to engage in a bit of a debate. Not that I'm overly bothered but perhaps it was my tone or the subject matter itself.

However has Defoe ostracised himself more so than Livermore? Or is it a case that everyone has that player they don’t like and some are more passionate in venting than others? I don't know but the sentiment is the same. These players can be frustrating but the way they are treated and how they can be called 'shit' without a moments thought only brings me to the conclusion that these people wouldn't think twice about doing the same at a game. I can't see how those people would be any more restrained at a game than when behind a computer (unless they feel safer behind a monitor).

Anyway good post!

 

[Hoddle_Ledge]

John Pratt was the main guest on the latest Spurs Show 'It's How I Hit It' if anyone wants a listen to some good old stories.

http://playbackmedia.co.uk/thespursshowarchive/

He says if anyone had a pop at him he just used to say "Have you played over 300 games for Tottenham Hotspur?"

 

[Liquidator]

I once heard a fan at WHL calling Crouch "a waste of oxygen".

Now I really couldn't stand Crouch, much like Defoe today, but as it was my first (and currently only game ) I was so excited that I was cheering for the beanpole.

Quite right - this cheer was inaccurate, as there barely any oxygen at the altitude at which Crouch breathes.

 

[spud]

I wasn't around at the time, but all the fans around me at the Lane who were there remember Pratt with nothing but dread as a truly thoughtless and limited footballer who just didn't belong in the same company as his contemporaries. These same fans remember Falco as a player who at the time was given a rough ride, but with hindsight is someone who we could've probably done with in more recent times.

As for Jake Livermore, he has a good attitude and is a trier, but he is simply not good enough and to have him starting any match for us is banal in my opinion. I'd far prefer a less experienced but more capable or talented player was given a go. He wasn't helped by the fact that he was filling in for our first choice midfielder in Dembele, who had inexplicably been moved into the attacking three due to Lennon's injury (would leaving Dembele where he was and putting Holtby in, thus at least leaving our centre as strong as possible, not have made far more sense?) and playing with the capable but very much second-best-to-Sandro Scott Parker, but that's no excuse. For all his energy and fight, he's cumbersome, makes a hash of the simplest of passes and often looks like he just does not know where to be on the pitch.

If we hadn't produced him he'd not be at Spurs because he would have never been a player we'd sign, even as a back up. I reckon he'll go the way of other Spurs players who came through our youth system and played a fair bit even though they weren't quite good enough... he'll be sold for a reasonable fee to either a Championship side where he'll find his level, or a lower Premiership side (or promoted side), where as an average-to-poor player amongst several other average-to-poor players, he'll soon find his way down into the Championship where he'll find his level. This precedent has been set by the likes of Stephen Clemence, Jamie O'Hara, Dean Marney.

Nobody likes to see a good youth product more than me, but the reality is that Livermore hasn't the quality to rub shoulders with the players in our first team, and even our back ups, however experiences, should be able to play with our main players and not look out of place. The luxury players aren't the tricksters and creators, the luxury players are those without the ability to meaningfully contribute and are therefore carried. In defence I can't think of one player who, should an injury occur witht he first teamer, would be a significant downgrade, and I include Gallas (who I really don't like) in that. In our attacking midfield, while obviously Bale cannot be replaced due to him being one of the very best players anywhere, I'm reasonably comfortable with any two out of Lennon, Sigurdsson, Holtby and Dempsey playing, though obviously Lennon is the one I'd want in the team most, and Dempsey least, and the bringing in of a good attacking player (or development of the likes of Pritchard and Townsend) is probably necessary to enhance things. Up front Defoe and Adebayor, well we need better than both really. But in the central three, while, as I've said, I'm happy to see Parker in for either Sandro or Dembele, we need better than both Livermore and Huddlestone. The latter at least has produced some great things in the past, though I don't have faith in him anymore (and I think his injuries have contributed heavily), but the former has given me no basis to ever feel comfortable with him in the side. I'd have thought, given that this kid has beent he one to come on for Dembele lately and is a player or both composure and guile, if not still a bit sheepish about it, that Carroll would've been the obvious player to throw in to the centre the other day given that it was deemed necessary to move Dembele (something I hope is not repeated). The kid might be stick thin, but he has far more chance of offering something than Livermore purely because he has ability, and Livermore, it is plain to see, does not.

I'm probably going to be slagged off to high heaven for this, but those who have seen me post over the years know that I'm probably one of the more optimistic and biased towards 'all things Spurs' supporters on this site and I just don't think this boy has what it takes. I hope he proves me wrong in the most emphatic fashion.

When you miss the point, you really do it in style.

Bravo.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

When you miss the point, you really do it in style.

Bravo.

Your point being what exactly? That people aren't entitled to vent their frustration with a poor player who plays for Spurs on a forum geared towards talking about Spurs? Where would you suggest people frustrated with him do it then? Far better to do it here, a place where he'll never even find out, than at the match where it'll knock his confidence and make him play even worse (if that's possible).

I was merely giving very valid reasons as to why he receives the criticism he does. You clearly disagree, and have articulated the reasons for your disagreement so very well in your 12 word response.

 

[AngerManagement]

It pisses me off no end when people complain about fans having a negative opinion of a player, like they're/we're not allowed to think or express our opinion that a player is not good enough

Don't get me wrong I don't agree with booing at matches but discussions in the pub with fellow fans or online in forums like our own should not be sensored to the extent fans can only express their views if they are positive

Moaning about a manager, a player or the team in general when things aren't going well or something is percieved to not be right is as old as football itself and part of the rollercoaster ride that means being a football fan

It should just be a point of discussion, some fans will think a certain player is great while others think he's over rated and some will think a player is a waste of space while others think he's given a rough ride......but whilst I think its wrong to vent those frustrations on a match day in the form of booing (as with Ghaly) I think fans are perfectly entitled to express their views on supporter forums and discussions with fans in pubs, at work or on match day etc

And if one more person says "the players could read these forums and it could dent their confience" or words to that effect I will lose my mind, firstly any player mentally weak enough to be unable to deal with such comments on an internet forum doesn't have the testicular fortitude to be a pro athelete and secondly the fact they are multi millionaires from playing the sport we all love makes my heart bleed for them if some of the fans who contribute in one way or another to them being millionaires express their opinions about their performances

 

[spud]

Your point being what exactly?

The point of the thread was the targetting of specific home-grown players by sections of our support. You decided to treat us all to your opinions of the merits of various players in our current squad, and also touched on formations.

Good for you.

 

[Nocando]

It pisses me off no end when people complain about fans having a negative opinion of a player, like they're/we're not allowed to think or express our opinion that a player is not good enough

Likewise it annoys me when people assume those criticising people for having an overtly negative opinion do so because it's negative, when in reality it has nothing whatsoever to do with that and more so because of the way they convey their opinion and the fact they seem incapable of providing reasoned debate and would rather just post inflammatory throwaway lines, whilst refusing to believe there is any correlation or link to what is expressed on a forum and how fans conduct themselves at the ground.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The point of the thread was the targetting of specific home-grown players by sections of our support. You decided to treat us all to your opinions of the merits of various players in our current squad, and also touched on formations.

Good for you.

I spoke of other players and the way they fit in because there's no better way to judge a player than by comparison to his peers and in relation to his suitability to the side.

If you believe that being homegrown is a factor that works against him, then how do you explain the fact that we've loved few players more than we've loved hoddle, king, perrymam and judas, while we've also taken to good, but not great, youth products like Carr, L.Young, Miller and Walker? Maybe we just have a blanket rule that we dislike bad players and like good ones? Or is that too obvious for your liking?

Or is your argument that being homegrown should buy them more time?

The most decried players I can remember in recent times, by the way, were certainly not produced by us. Or have you forgotten Bentley and pavlyuchenko?

I imagine that had my post been someone else, rather than a poster like me who you often disagree with, you'd have a paid it less attention, or maybe formed something of a discussion of it.

I'm being foolish, it's folly to expect anything approaching erudite or thought out from a Spurs fan who knowingly has his username as a word which other clubs supporters use in a derogatory way against us. I bet you also prefix 'Arsenal' with 'the' when we play them too...

 

[TheChosenOne]

Johnny Pratt gave 100% of himself to the team just about every time he played - Compare that to some of today's
primadonnas who have only money and fame in their sights but no loyalty to any team or nation.

I have seen Spurs teams through almost fifty years, as a boy,man and grandfather, there have been fabulous individuals
come and go through the decades leaving their mark and many journeymen have also played their part in the big scene.

I have never abused any player in a Spurs shirt - I have laughed at some of the players down the years, especially the wilderness years of the mid-to-late 1970's. It was easier to laugh than abuse. Even down in the old Division -
If we couldn't laugh we would have had to cry.

Today's society in general seems to be a disposable one - whether it be partners, children and consumer goods.

Maybe it is just me, an oldie set in my ways and slowing down. Just my thoughts.

 

[AngerManagement]

I'm not gonna lie the only reason I've even heard of John Pratt is because my dad used to tell me about how shit he was and Falco I know because my dad always claims we had the choice between keeping him or Kerrie Dixon and chose Falco (the wrong decision in my dads opinion)

Dixon went on to do pretty well for Chelsea and Falco did ok for QPR? I dunno maybe some of the older members of this forum could share their memories about Dixon and Falco and whether this was indeed the case or my dad (as is frequently the case) is chatting shit

 

[TheChosenOne]

You didn't know JP had a confectioners/newsagent shop down Hoxton way when he was a player ?

 

[monkeynick]

Chris Armstrong used to get a bit, he wasn't particularly good mind you

 

[Misfit]

It has always happened as far as I can remember (Back to the mid 60's) Then and up to the early 80's we in the main only signed top class players and regularly broke transfer records in doing so and became spoiled as a result of this. Relatively few youngsters got the chance to come through the ranks and I think we as fans got used to seeing the finished (expensive brought in) player appear in the team and when a youngster was blooded they were rarely given a fair crack of the whip by the fans.

Samways got fucking slaughtered on his debut. An abiding memory of my single digit days was of my grandad getting het up about that periodically for about 4 yrs after.

 

[Misfit]

I posted exactly the same thing (not as long winded or as eloquent granted) about Defoe, only to be targeted by three people who negged 5 posts of mine and quite a few others who were kind/intelligent enough to engage in a bit of a debate. Not that I'm overly bothered but perhaps it was my tone or the subject matter itself.

However has Defoe ostracised himself more so than Livermore? Or is it a case that everyone has that player they don’t like and some are more passionate in venting than others? I don't know but the sentiment is the same. These players can be frustrating but the way they are treated and how they can be called 'shit' without a moments thought only brings me to the conclusion that these people wouldn't think twice about doing the same at a game. I can't see how those people would be any more restrained at a game than when behind a computer (unless they feel safer behind a monitor).

Anyway good post!

I posted about how he drives me insane and always has done a day or so back. With each yr our team evolves further and further away from him. I'll never do anything but cheer him and the other Spurs players on when wearing the shirt though.

I got into major argy bargy during the Ghaly incident. I pointed out to the massive wankers in the East Stand who were raging about him disrespecting the shirt when he threw it to the ground and who were spitting real bile and invective - genuinely nasty stuff - at a player having a mare but trying his hardest (probably too hard in fact) in the Spurs shirt that they were the ones actually disrespecting the Spurs shirt.

Throwing the shirt away, ultimately a bit of cloth to the ground, was the least of it. I'd have snapped in his shoes. Nah. They got a taste of their own medicine and didn't the widdle babies have a good old baaaaaw when they did.

 

[spud]

I'm being foolish, it's folly to expect anything approaching erudite or thought out from a Spurs fan who knowingly has his username as a word which other clubs supporters use in a derogatory way against us. I bet you also prefix 'Arsenal' with 'the' when we play them too...

As expected, you descend into personal abuse and your fixation on my user name.

You bore me. Go away.