Civil war amongst Spurs supporters......should they change their target?

[Mackay6]

Yep, 80s pissed this current period.

Exactly, I'm really surprised at some of people's historical judgments. Hoddle and Ardilles played turgid football, I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[Mackay6]

I wouldn't say two decades, but 1992-2004 were bad. Ginola, the emergence of King and the league cup win in 99 pretty much covers the positives.

Hi fair comments, but Klinsmann footballer of the year wasn't he a positive, the alliance of Klinsmann annd Sheringham, have we had a better strike duo since then, I can't think of one.

Didn't we play some outstanding attacking football with the famous five, who can forget that incredible opening game at Sheff Wed with Jurgen's famous dive celebration?

I could go on, but I think I've quickly shown some more positives.

We have also to be careful of picking and choosing dates to suit our arguments, myself included of course.

The usual fair way is to look at decades, or to look at periods covered by a particular manager or owner.

If we look at ENIC, we see in 11.75 years, they have overseen us winning one trophy. In the 11,75 years previous to them we won two trophies, and one of those trophies, The FA Cup was and is more prestigious than the Lge Cup we have won won under ENIC, though in all fairness it was a fantastic magical cup run that season, and for me stands on a par with the 91 FA Cup run which was equally fantastic and magical. However, in general most agree, the FA Cup ranks higher than the Lge Cup

If we look at decades - 80s 3 trophies, 90s two trophies, 00s one trophy, this decade so far zero trophies.

 

[Nocando]

Hi fair comments, but Klinsmann footballer of the year wasn't he a positive, the alliance of Klinsmann annd Sheringham, have we had a better strike duo since then, I can't think of one.

Didn't we play some outstanding attacking football with the famous five, who can forget that incredible opening game at Sheff Wed with Jurgen's famous dive celebration?

I could go on, but I think I've quickly shown some more positives.

We have also to be careful of picking and choosing dates to suit our arguments, myself included of course.

The usual fair way is to look at decades, or to look at periods covered by a particular manager or owner.

If we look at ENIC, we see in 11.75 years, they have overseen u winning one trophy. In the 11,75 years previous to them we won two trophies.

If we look at decades - 80s 3 trophies, 90s two trophies, 00s one trophy, this decade so far zero trophies.

Can you provide details of league finishes please.

 

[Nocando]

Oh and with Arsenal and Chelsea as a comparison.

 

[Mackay6]

Can you provide details of league finishes please.

I actually have done in another thread, but IIRC we averaged 11th in the relevant seasons pre-ENIC and 7.64 under ENIC, so a definite and marked improvement under ENIC and congratualtions to them again. I congratulated them in the other post as well on this.

With regard to Arsenal and Chelsea, I'm not going to trawl through all their lge finishes, but if you would like to do so please do.

In general Arsenal have dominated us in the whole 23 year period in question, however when ENIC took over arguably we were still the second biggest club in London, now we have slipped behind Chelsea who have dominated us and then some during the ENIC period, and we are now only the third biggest/most successful club in London.

When I started supporting Spurs we were arguably the biggest club in London, but never before the ENIC reign (or arguably slightly before) have we slipped as low as third. We'd always been ahead of Chelsea in my 60+ years on this planet till the ENIC era, or arguably a little before when they took over.

 

[Son of Saintlyspur]

To be brutally honest I am firmly of the belief that any sane and half normal fan should completely and wholly turn their venomous attention on fickle idiotic fans who always have a burning desire to target and blame somebody at the club every time we lose a fucking football match!!!!

Seriously a footballer who is already perhaps lacking in some confidence or going through a period of poor form is not exactly going to be inspired by fuckhead fans constantly booing and abusing them. Should it be any different for a manager? The club, from the very top to the very bottom, needs your support, needs our support. The one constant in these fans relentless search for a scapegoat is their ridiculous inability to take a good long hard look at themselves.

I don't know, maybe this post is the product of what has already been a bad morning, but I am sick to fucking death of logging on to SC every morning and finding another 50 fucking threads blaming anyone and everyone from Levy to the tealady for the alleged fact that Tottenham Hotspur Football Club is about to implode and die a quick and painful death!! To Dare is To Do...maybe if some people had the ability to dare to believe that things might actually improve (from a situation that isn't really ridiculously bad), that the club is actually moving forward in a focussed direction for the first time in as long as I can remember, and dared to throw their full support behind their football club that they claim to "support".

No doubt I'm asking far too much, no doubt I'll get 'dumbed' repeatedly for this, no doubt the naysayers will argue with me...I really couldn't give a shite anymore, I'm Spurs through and through, I love my club and I will support them through thick and thin, I support Daniel Levy and AVB just as I supported Sugar and Francis. COYS!

Moderators, I think this post has hit the nail on the head is there any need to keep this topic open? COYS!!

 

[Nocando]

I actually have done in another thread, but IIRC we averaged 11th in the relevant seasons pre-ENIC and 7.64 under ENIC, so a definite and marked improvement under ENIC and congratualtions to them again. I congratulated them in the other post as well on this.

With regard to Arsenal and Chelsea, I'm not going to trawl through all their lge finishes, but if you would like to do so please do.

In general Arsenal have dominated us in the whole 23 year period in question, however when ENIC took over arguably we were still the second biggest club in London, now we have slipped behind Chelsea who have dominated us and then some during the ENIC period, and we are now only the third biggest/most successful club in London.

When I started supporting Spurs we were arguably the biggest club in London, but never before the ENIC reign (or arguably slightly before) have we slipped as low as third. We'd always been ahead of Chelsea in my 60+ years on this planet till the ENIC era, or arguably a little before when they took over.

Sorry I just took a massive bite of a mouldy apple (ok on the outside but horrid on the inside) as I was typing the last two responses. So was a little distracted with a bitter taste in my mouth (no change there) and probably along with a half eaten worm.

Anyway I haven't seen all the background to this, and don't know what point (if any) you are trying to make. But From Venables onwards our league position was particularly bad and we never considered fighting with the big teams (at that stage, was Liverpool). Chelsea have only come into it recently so just comparing to London clubs is a little too convenient. All I know is that we have significantly improved once Levy took over, in terms of vying for the league. Trophies, on the whole, mean jackshit these days (and I was there for both recent finals) unless they are champions league or the premiership. FA cup & UEFA would be wonderful achievements, but they just aren't linked to the direction of a club anymore.

But (and ive said this before) we have not done that well historically anyway. What 2 league wins. When compared to a lot of clubs thats really rather pathetic. So even during eras like Venables, we didn't really do as much as many would hope for these days.

 

[Adam456]

i find it amazing that the 'debate' still goes on, redknapp got himself sacked after the way he conducted himself just before the England appointment.[/B] Levy wants someone who is going to grow with the club but redknapps position became untenable, levy is a businessman and there was no way he was going to be bent over a barrel by redknapp.
Its all in the past, the sooner people realise that bleating about it will not bring him back the better!

Me too

Mods can we give a 1-month ban each time some spanner questions it ? The Harry press and opposition bandwaggoner fans maybe but any 'Spurs fans' who failed to notice his almost constant eye-lash fluttering while our form collapsed should hang their heads in shame

 

[Mackay6]

Sorry I just took a massive bite of a mouldy apple (ok on the outside but horrid on the inside) as I was typing the last two responses. So was a little distracted with a bitter taste in my mouth (no change there) and probably along with a half eaten worm.

Anyway I haven't seen all the background to this, and don't know what point (if any) you are trying to make. But From Venables onwards our league position was particularly bad and we never considered fighting with the big teams (at that stage, was Liverpool). Chelsea have only come into it recently so just comparing to London clubs is a little too convenient. All I know is that we have significantly improved once Levy took over, in terms of vying for the league. Trophies, on the whole, mean jackshit these days (and I was there for both recent finals) unless they are champions league or the premiership. FA cup & UEFA would be wonderful achievements, but they just aren't linked to the direction of a club anymore.

But (and ive said this before) we have not done that well historically anyway. What 2 league wins. When compared to a lot of clubs thats really rather pathetic. So even during eras like Venables, we didn't really do as much as many would hope for these days.

Why is it 'convenient' you asked me about Arsenal and Chelsea in the first place. Shouldn't you consider what you actually wrote before putting in an incorrect and misplaced dig? Commiserations on the apple BTW, I must admit I tend to chuck away anything that looks a bit mouldy, I probably overdo it that way. I've just chucked away a fair bit of food, some of it probably quite edible. But once you've had food poisoning a few times as I have, there's always the temptation to over-compensate.

The rest of your post I mostly disagree with, but it's all about opinions, etc.

 

[Nocando]

it wasnt a dig. tbh wasnt even sure which ‘side‘ you were arguing. i noticed trophies being used as a barameter and wanted a better perspestive using the league. from the end of venables onwaeds. its ony natural to compare against all main rivals inc chelsea arsenal and liverpool. however we need to conider the change in fortunes of chelsea and city over that period. i havent seen enough robust analysis in this thread to support any argument that we were under performing with enic compared to previous. Trophies is justone elemnt but shoildnt be seen as the sole arometer. in fact i give it less weight in terms of the road to success

 

[Mackay6]

Fair enough NC

 

[dcarney75]

Yeah, I'll give you Klinsmann and Teddy! But the "famous five" was for about ten minutes, pre-Ardiles sacking, and we took a few batterings iirc. I still can't see the argument that post-Venables, pre-ENiC was in any way comparable to the last few years, when we've looked like a bit of a force again.

 

[Mackay6]

Yeah, I'll give you Klinsmann and Teddy! But the "famous five" was for about ten minutes, pre-Ardiles sacking, and we took a few batterings iirc. I still can't see the argument that post-Venables, pre-ENiC was in any way comparable to the last few years, when we've looked like a bit of a force again.

Fair enough, I take your points, as so often the devil's in the detail in these debates. Anyway, I think we roughly know where each of us stands now, we doubtless disagree, but probably not by that much, it really just depends on the exact years we're covering, and whether that's a fair 'slice of years' to compare.

 

[dcarney75]

Fair enough, I take your points, as so often the devil's in the detail in these debates. Anyway, I think we roughly know where each of us stands now, we doubtless disagree, but probably not by that much, it really just depends on the exact years we're covering, and whether that's a fair 'slice of years' to compare.

Yeah, was just making the point that we were bad for most of the 90s, and at the beginning of the 2000s, and that the upsurge in the club's fortunes is down to the ENIC takeover. For the sake of argument, I'm talking about the Alan Sugar years, and saying that Levy and ENIC fare pretty favourably in a direct comparison to this period. I'm comparing ENIC with the preceding regime.

 

[Mackay6]

Yeah, was just making the point that we were bad for most of the 90s, and at the beginning of the 2000s, and that the upsurge in the club's fortunes is down to the ENIC takeover. For the sake of argument, I'm talking about the Alan Sugar years, and saying that Levy and ENIC fare pretty favourably in a direct comparison to this period. I'm comparing ENIC with the preceding regime.

Well again this is where it gets difficult, because if you compare ENIC with the Sugar regime, the difference isn't as clear cut as some might think , IMHO anyway.

In something like 10.5 years under Sugar we won an FA cup and a Lge Cup, whereas in 11.75 years under ENIC we have won just a Lge Cup. So far from ENIC being a great improvement in trophies they are significantly worse, less trophies of less calibre overall but in a longer time frame. Hardly a great leap forward in my book.

Yes ENIC have done better in the lge, but not to the extent that it makes them much better than Sugar overall. Better yes, but how much better, that's the question I think I would probably answer with a 'not so much better than a lot of people think'.

Sugar also presided over an expansion in our stadium capacity, in the longer time frame that ENIC have had, they haven't done so, to date.

 

[dcarney75]

Was Sugar chairman for the 91 cup win?

Even if he was, it's difficult to argue that his era wasn't one of mediocrity on the pitch. One more trophy maybe, but... Spurs have actually been good for a few seasons now!

 

[Mackay6]

Was Sugar chairman for the 91 cup win?

Even if he was, it's difficult to argue that his era wasn't one of mediocrity on the pitch. One more trophy maybe, but... Spurs have actually been good for a few seasons now!

Apologies, just checked it out, it seems Sugar didn't take over till a month after the Cup Final, Spurs were in a kind of limbo at the top for a few months before and just after the Cup Final.

So in that case it's one lge cup each, but Sugar achieved that in less than 10 years, ENIC have taken 11.75 years so far.

However, it gets worse for ENIC, because if you go back 11.75 years previous to them, which is the fair comparison, then they still lag behind two trophies to one, one of them being the superior FA Cup. Also we managed a 3rd position during that time, better than anything ENIC have achieved.

So in comparing like for like, it's not's looking particularly superior for ENIC, less trophies and not matching the previous era's highest lge position..

 

[Nocando]

Apologies, just checked it out, it seems Sugar didn't take over till a month after the Cup Final, Spurs were in a kind of limbo at the top for a few months before and just after the Cup Final.

So in that case it's one lge cup each, but Sugar achieved that in less than 10 years, ENIC have taken 11.75 years so far.

However, it gets worse for ENIC, because if you go back 11.75 years previous to them, which is the fair comparison, then they still lag behind two trophies to one, one of them being the superior FA Cup. Also we managed a 3rd position during that time, better than anything ENIC have achieved.

So in comparing like for like, it's not's looking particularly superior for ENIC, less trophies and not matching the previous era's highest lge position..

I think youre still being far too dismissive of league placing and only concentrating on trophies. is it possible to put that to one side and compare the average league position? Its also worth noting there is considerable difference in prize money the higher up you go. perhaps in an ideal world we coild compare prize money if football inflation wasn't so much of an issue

 

[parklane1]

I think youre still being far too dismissive of league placing and only concentrating on trophies. is it possible to put that to one side and compare the average league position? Its also worth noting there is considerable difference in prize money the higher up you go. perhaps in an ideal world we could compare prize money if football inflation wasn't so much of an issue

Anyone who can not see how better this club has been over the last decade is not for real, our League placings have been better, we are regulars in Europe, we have a state of the art training facility and a new ground on the way.

I would love us to win more trophies, however one of the things that disappoints me is that they are so many fans today that think finishing as one of the losers ( top four) is more important then actually winning a trophy.

 

[dcarney75]

Just looking at trophies won is a bit misleading and simplistic, IMO.

Years of turgid, passionless crap in the 90s, with the odd great result, vs. regularly winning the NLD, winning at Anfield and Old Trafford, beating Chelsea three times (I think) in the league at WHL, winning at the San Siro, comprehensively beating Inter at WHL, running out at the Bernabeu (although the less said about that game the better!), Bale's hat-trick against Inter, the comeback at the Emirates, the Keane/Berbatov partnership, Modric, Van Der Vaart, Bale, regular European football (although I accept the EL is a bit of a joke), and coming 4/5/4 in the PL in an era where we're nowhere near a lot of our rivals financially, and in doing so establishing ourselves as a bit of a force again.

Taken together, all this is surely preferable to, to give a hypothetical example, winning the FA Cup in 2003, and the League Cup in 2008, and having to put up with the modern-day versions of Gross, Francis, Graham, Trammezani, Vega, Edinburgh, Fox, Armstrong et al. in between, with any good players we may have (Klinsmann, Sheringham, Ginola) blunted by the mediocrity that surrounds them.

I don't think ENIC have been perfect in their stewardship by any means, I understand the "two trophies is better than one trophy" argument, and we've had our fair share of bad days in recent years, but would you honestly swap the last few seasons as a Spurs fan for what went directly before? If you look at it holistically, there's absolutely no contest, in my opinion. To take your time frame, the last 11.75 years have, in my opinion (and this is probably the key phrase here), been far more exciting overall than the previous 11.75 years.

Although having said that, let's all meet back on this thread in 11.75 years time, and re-assess.