Career Killers?

[mil1lion]

I think as BBLG has listed, we can help a career that is already on the up. Not always, but his examples are good. Other than perhaps for Robbo, who while we helped build, we definitely destroyed.

Personally i think England destroyed Robinson. Although Ramos didn't show much belief in him, but his confidence was well and truely destroyed by his nation.

 

[gibbs131]

What gets on my nerves, is when we buy these young starlets and have an injury epidemic in a certain position, we tend to play old players out of position, rather than give them a chance to shine.

 

[Bulletspur]

What gets on my nerves, is when we buy these young starlets and have an injury epidemic in a certain position, we tend to play old players out of position, rather than give them a chance to shine.

I agree. The most fustrating thing is we never win these games so why not blood the young ones? I think it comes down to lack of faith and covering his own ass where the manager in question is concerned.

 

[Bonjour]

Helder Postiga?

 

[StartingPrice]

Personally i think England destroyed Robinson. Although Ramos didn't show much belief in him, but his confidence was well and truely destroyed by his nation.

Personally, I think the (w*nkers of the) media destroyed Robinson - if that if what you meant by 'England' I agree with you.

And in the 'ruined' stakes - Blondelmg:

 

[$hoguN]

Think its too early to say we have ruined Bostock, Rose, Parrett, wtc. as they are still only young and may still make it

 

[danielneeds]

I think we don't help ourselves with a slightly scatter-gun buying policy. I think some young players would be dubious about joining us, but as been said for all the failures there have been plenty of successes.

 

[ultimateloner]

We've quite a few high-profile flop signings over the last decade. Rebrov and Postiga spring to mind. You could probably count Gio as one too, maybe Pav. Actually might as well add to that Bent and Bently.

However note that the majority of those are foreign players. I think we are a good breeding ground for young British players. We are abit of a career killer for foreign players.

 

[dontcallme]

I think it's also worth noting how much pressure the manager is to deliver in the here and now. Redknapp has maintained from day one that his aim is the top four. The fans and probably the chairman are also demanding that.

If Redknapp did a fantastic job with getting our youngsters up to the right level but as a consequence we had a couple of seasons mid-table we'd want him out and Levy would sack him. The next manager could then use these players to get success and he'd get the credit. With so much money being spent there is too much emphasis on the here and now.

 

[spurs_viola]

I think as BBLG has listed, we can help a career that is already on the up. Not always, but his examples are good. Other than perhaps for Robbo, who while we helped build, we definitely destroyed.

However for the kids, we do impede their careers. We're like gas additive in that we can help a car go faster. We need to be like gas and help some cars start. Lennon and Huddlestone have been the only two we have nurtured from saplings to very good players. But why was this? Because we gave them a chance. However, all those chances started with Jol. He seemed willing to give youth a chance. Sometimes it kicked him in the balls like Routledge, but he was the one that gave Dawson, Bale, the above two and even Carrick the chance to shine. They took it.

Now we don't give anybody a chance. We are loaded with talent at the u20 level. We could probably start two teams in lower divisions with our loanees alone. Will all of it make it? God no, but some of them will. Harry freezing out Gunter is starting to show as incompetence as the kids has been excellent in Nottingham Forest's resurrection and hopefully he will be starting in the Prem next season.

From what I remember, Bostock has been given two games, Rose one and that's about it. I loved Livermore in the preseason and thought he could have well been the guy to backup Wilson. Immediately shipped off and doing well. Now we have to buy. TAH is being brought back because of our issues at CB, but I doubt we will see him unless something really bad happens and we don't sign a player. Naughton is aptly named and Rose won't see the pitch again even though both could help late to run at tired defenses with Lennon out.

It's ridiculous. Harry has some definite strengths but youth isn't one. He's proven that he will only play kids when forced. Perhaps that is the upside of having no money to spend on players. He might be forced to capitulate.

We lost Delph because of not being a youth friendly organization. I imagine we may well lose Moses (although him actually being contemporaries of Kanu might work in his favor) for the same reason. We just need to find a balance. You can't win with kids, but you can't build without them either.

Excellent post and points, couldn't agree more. Would also add that to claim Bassong as a positive example on this thread is too premature. Look at what happened as soon as King was deemed more than 50 % fit, even though we kept 6 clean sheets with Bassong in central defence before that.
(Not saying Bassong was the main reason for all those clean sheets at all, by the way.)

 

[DogsOfWar]

I think the relevant point in trying to assess whether we are career killers is how many of the young players who we have got rid of gone on to surpass us?

Any given player has a certain amount of ability which rarely improves. He can become more experienced through playing and improve his decision making etc, but his 'natural' ability isn't going to get much better.

If these players were to go elsewhere and suddenly become top four players then I could accept we had a problem but they don't, they disappear off to lower Prem or lower league football and never trouble the highest level again.

This would indicate that we have actually made the right decision in binning them unlike in the 90's when some pretty ropey youngsters got through to our first team.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Excellent post and points, couldn't agree more. Would also add that to claim Bassong as a positive example on this thread is too premature. Look at what happened as soon as King was deemed more than 50 % fit, even though we kept 6 clean sheets with Bassong in central defence before that.
(Not saying Bassong was the main reason for all those clean sheets at all, by the way.)

Good, seeing as you have made this point lots of times it still isn't true. King started alongside Dawson against West Ham which was in the middle of the 6 clean sheets. I know I'm not supposed to post after you have written anymore but you keep making this point and it's wrong.

In answer to the original thread, I think that we as fans have a role to play in this 'career killing' aspect. It doesn't just happen at our club, every club gets excited by every signing that is made, whether it be a potential first teamer or a already complete player. We have examples of this that have happened this season.

Kyle Naughton, played one decent season for Sheff Utd, clearly bought for the future, especially as the point has been made by many, that defenders, especially full backs, mature with age. Ashley Cole was great going forward in the Arsenal side, but it's only been the last 4 years or so that he has really turned into a good defender. Naughton was never going to be a starter this year.

Jake Livermore, played a couple of decent pre-season friendlies for us then was sent on loan to a lower division club, hoping to set the world alight. Did he? No. In fact, he was actually quite poor for Derby in most of the games, maybe more to do with the style of football, maybe he will be more suited to Peterborough, scored on his debut (although they lost) etc. Who knows?

Giovani.........God it's such a boring subject for a potentially good player. He more than anyone probably suffers from the 'over-hype'. Is it because he is flamboyant? Is it because he played for Barcelona? Whatever it is it is certainly not for his stats. 38 games in total Barcelona, with a poor return of 4 goals and 4 assists for an attacking player, and 3 of those goals came in 1 game. It's good enough ammunition for Keane haters, but not Gio fans? But he's been Mexican man of the match.......against Haiti and Venezuela. If Gio had come from a lower league Spanish team or directly from his homeland, we would be arguing over who was better, him or Andros Townsend. But we don't because of this stigma attached.

Have we 'ruined' Pav's career? Not really. He was a bad buy due to timing, squad balance, a number of reasons. He may not have had the 'chances' some claim, but he has also been pretty shite when he has played. You can definitely name a lot more bad games than good, and even the good weren't actually 'good', it just meant he might have scored. It is however a remarkable turnaround from the fans who cheered sarcastically when he was subbed against Man City in the last home game of last season, to the hero's reception he got coming on, on Saturday. For that he must be grateful.

Bostock is definitely not ruined, it takes an outrageous talent for someone to command a first team place at the age of 16 or 17, Rooney for one being a great example. Bostock will be a good player, but it might not be for another 3 years, or for us. But a lot of that will be down to him and if he wants to be patient.

Taarabt, is playing quite well for QPR but is definitely up and down and not what you would call consistent. Does that count as our 'ruin' or has the buck now passed to QPR?

I'm not one for blaming either party when players don't live up to their billing, sometimes it just doesn't happen for a number of variables which aren't always controllable.

 

[sunnydelight786]

Good, seeing as you have made this point lots of times it still isn't true. King started alongside Dawson against West Ham which was in the middle of the 6 clean sheets. I know I'm not supposed to post after you have written anymore but you keep making this point and it's wrong.

In answer to the original thread, I think that we as fans have a role to play in this 'career killing' aspect. It doesn't just happen at our club, every club gets excited by every signing that is made, whether it be a potential first teamer or a already complete player. We have examples of this that have happened this season.

Kyle Naughton, played one decent season for Sheff Utd, clearly bought for the future, especially as the point has been made by many, that defenders, especially full backs, mature with age. Ashley Cole was great going forward in the Arsenal side, but it's only been the last 4 years or so that he has really turned into a good defender. Naughton was never going to be a starter this year.

Jake Livermore, played a couple of decent pre-season friendlies for us then was sent on loan to a lower division club, hoping to set the world alight. Did he? No. In fact, he was actually quite poor for Derby in most of the games, maybe more to do with the style of football, maybe he will be more suited to Peterborough, scored on his debut (although they lost) etc. Who knows?

Giovani.........God it's such a boring subject for a potentially good player. He more than anyone probably suffers from the 'over-hype'. Is it because he is flamboyant? Is it because he played for Barcelona? Whatever it is it is certainly not for his stats. 38 games in total Barcelona, with a poor return of 4 goals and 4 assists for an attacking player, and 3 of those goals came in 1 game. It's good enough ammunition for Keane haters, but not Gio fans? But he's been Mexican man of the match.......against Haiti and Venezuela. If Gio had come from a lower league Spanish team or directly from his homeland, we would be arguing over who was better, him or Andros Townsend. But we don't because of this stigma attached.

Have we 'ruined' Pav's career? Not really. He was a bad buy due to timing, squad balance, a number of reasons. He may not have had the 'chances' some claim, but he has also been pretty shite when he has played. You can definitely name a lot more bad games than good, and even the good weren't actually 'good', it just meant he might have scored. It is however a remarkable turnaround from the fans who cheered sarcastically when he was subbed against Man City in the last home game of last season, to the hero's reception he got coming on, on Saturday. For that he must be grateful.

Bostock is definitely not ruined, it takes an outrageous talent for someone to command a first team place at the age of 16 or 17, Rooney for one being a great example. Bostock will be a good player, but it might not be for another 3 years, or for us. But a lot of that will be down to him and if he wants to be patient.

Taarabt, is playing quite well for QPR but is definitely up and down and not what you would call consistent. Does that count as our 'ruin' or has the buck now passed to QPR?

I'm not one for blaming either party when players don't live up to their billing, sometimes it just doesn't happen for a number of variables which aren't always controllable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Harry-Redknapps-slams-attitude.html?ITO=1490

Teenage midfielder John Bostock’s attitude was questioned by Tottenham manager Harry Redknapp after Brentford decided not to extend his loan.

‘He wasn’t in the team, he was on the bench on Saturday and the Saturday before,’ said the Spurs manager of the 18-year-old signed from Crystal Palace in 2008.

‘When they go on loan they have to get in the team. If they’re not playing well enough then they don’t play.

I keep harping back to when I loaned out boys like Rio Ferdinand and Frank Lampard. I went to see Frank play for Swansea at the Vetch.

'Ankle-deep mud and he was fantastic. It didn’t bother him, he adjusted. You have to adjust.

‘You’re looking for them to make a real impact. And when you get them back you think — stick him in the team.’

 

[BringBack_leGin]

But what of those who make an impact and still don't get stuck in the team?

 

[scat1620]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Harry-Redknapps-slams-attitude.html?ITO=1490

Teenage midfielder John Bostock’s attitude was questioned by Tottenham manager Harry Redknapp after Brentford decided not to extend his loan.

‘He wasn’t in the team, he was on the bench on Saturday and the Saturday before,’ said the Spurs manager of the 18-year-old signed from Crystal Palace in 2008.

‘When they go on loan they have to get in the team. If they’re not playing well enough then they don’t play.

I keep harping back to when I loaned out boys like Rio Ferdinand and Frank Lampard. I went to see Frank play for Swansea at the Vetch.




'Ankle-deep mud and he was fantastic. It didn’t bother him, he adjusted. You have to adjust.

‘You’re looking for them to make a real impact. And when you get them back you think — stick him in the team.’

Fair play for finding that, SD, I hadn't seen those quotes from Harry before. To me though, that suggests that it's Bostock who's not putting in the effort (or got the quality? - I hope not!), not anything to do with us. It's highly unlikely that Brentford were leaving Bostock out for non-footballing reasons, so surely the onus is on him to get his game up to the level where he's in the team every week for Brentford, let alone troubling the first team at Spurs?

Often don't see eye-to-eye with you about a lot of issues at Tottenham, but I'm genuinely not trying to be provocative with the above - I'd be very interested to hear what you think about the above question.

 

[sunnydelight786]

Fair play for finding that, SD, I hadn't seen those quotes from Harry before. To me though, that suggests that it's Bostock who's not putting in the effort (or got the quality? - I hope not!), not anything to do with us. It's highly unlikely that Brentford were leaving Bostock out for non-footballing reasons, so surely the onus is on him to get his game up to the level where he's in the team every week for Brentford, let alone troubling the first team at Spurs?

Often don't see eye-to-eye with you about a lot of issues at Tottenham, but I'm genuinely not trying to be provocative with the above - I'd be very interested to hear what you think about the above question.

If I'm quite honest I dont like our dirty linen being washed in public, especially when it's one of our young talents involved. I agree that it seems that Bostock may not have been pulling his weight at Brentford, if that article/quotes are to be believed, but having a pop at Bostock in public........ How often, if ever, do you hear Wenger or SAF publically have a go at one of their players....? Surely having a quite/strong word with them behind closed doors/in house would be the right way of going about your/our business.

 

[scat1620]

If I'm quite honest I dont like our dirty linen being washed in public, especially when it's one of our young talents involved. I agree that it seems that Bostock may not have been pulling his weight at Brentford, if that article/quotes are to be believed, but having a pop at Bostock in public........ How often, if ever, do you hear Wenger or SAF publically have a go at one of their players....? Surely having a quite/strong word with them behind closed doors/in house would be the right way of going about your/our business.

That's fair enough; don't strongly agree with that but I equally don't strongly disagree with it either. IMO, it's not all that big of a deal either way whether when managers are dissatisfied with a player they keep it all in-house or not. Wenger and Ferguson aren't really known for doing it, but Mourinho isn't averse to airing his views on his own players in public (he's certainly gone public on his frustration with Mario Ballotelli as far as I recall) so for me it's not necessarily the sign of a bad manager (or man-manager) to do this. But I can see that there are arguments for and against taking that approach.

For me, whatever the rights and wrongs of Harry speaking out like this, it's up to Bostock to turn things round and get back on track with his football. Can see how it could be argued that Harry might not have helped him to do this by saying what he's said (and can equally see the argument that it might be a necessary kick up the arse for JB), but at the end of the day only one person is ultimately responsible for how well Bostock plays when selected [for Brentford, another loan team, or Spurs], and that is Bostock himself. Even if Harry isn't right to speak out, Bostock has got to get past it and find his form again. And then hopefully he can be the player we all want him to be.

 

[Teemu]

Giovani.........God it's such a boring subject for a potentially good player. He more than anyone probably suffers from the 'over-hype'. Is it because he is flamboyant? Is it because he played for Barcelona? Whatever it is it is certainly not for his stats. 38 games in total Barcelona, with a poor return of 4 goals and 4 assists for an attacking player, and 3 of those goals came in 1 game. It's good enough ammunition for Keane haters, but not Gio fans? But he's been Mexican man of the match.......against Haiti and Venezuela. If Gio had come from a lower league Spanish team or directly from his homeland, we would be arguing over who was better, him or Andros Townsend. But we don't because of this stigma attached.

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm going to pick you up on this one point, which I don't agree with.

If dos Santos had come from a lower league Spanish team, and had never played for his country, then clearly, it would be unjustifiable to claim he merits a place in the first team. This happened to people like Pekhart, no one had ever seen him play, he'd never really played first team football, he scored a few goals for the academy, and suddenly he was the Czech Rooney or whatever.

On the other hand, dos Santos HAS played football at a high level, in the best league in the world, for the best team in the world, in the best club competition in the world. He's played 38 times for Barcelona! Ok, so maybe he's not quite good enough for Barca, fair enough, but he's played 38 times for them, can he really be that shocking? Clearly Barcelona thought he had enough promise to play him in a fair number of matches; can he really have gone from being a highly promising youngster who is a regular substitute and occasional starter at the best team in the world to an incompetent lower-league footballer who doesn't even merit a chance at Tottenham?

And ok, so he got man of the match against Venezuela. For a start, Venezuela are hardly American Samoa, are they? They're 50th in the world, not far off teams like Turkey and Sweden. In any case, what are you trying to prove with that particular point? In every chance he's been given recently, he's shone. He's consistently been a star player for Mexico, who are one of the best teams in the world. He went to Ipswich on loan last season, and unlike some of the other examples you gave (Livermore, for example), he was brilliant, clearly too good for that level. He certainly hasn't embarassed himself in the very few games he's played for us. Please don't say he was rubbish at the beginning of last year, this was a team who was performing disastrously, and he certainly wasn't doing any worse than more illustrious players such as Modric at that time (I'm not comparing him to Modric in anyway, but to judge him based on the beginning of last year is incredibly unfair).

If he's too good for the Championship, a stand-out for a very good footballing nation, and was a fairly regular performer for Barcelona at the age of 18, I cannot see one justifiable reason why he has been given NO game time in our colours. He's clearly got talent, that much is evident from the little we've seen of him. Should he be starting every game? No, of course not. But I think we've treated him pretty scandalously, how can he be on the bench against Liverpool, in one of our biggest games of the season, then dropped completely from the squad against a League One team at the expense of Danny Rose, who has only a fraction of his experience. There is literally no logic in that. None whatsoever.

 

[spurs_viola]

Teemu, you are just wasting your time and effort on this subject with S_B. The points you make are just too logical for certain people who will never accept that there may be something wrong with the way he has been frozen out under the current manager.

Far too easier to blindly believe the Harry-speak and rumours and then proclaim them as the absolute proof of the reason why certain players have been ignored.

 

[gibbs131]

Good, seeing as you have made this point lots of times it still isn't true. King started alongside Dawson against West Ham which was in the middle of the 6 clean sheets. I know I'm not supposed to post after you have written anymore but you keep making this point and it's wrong.

In answer to the original thread, I think that we as fans have a role to play in this 'career killing' aspect. It doesn't just happen at our club, every club gets excited by every signing that is made, whether it be a potential first teamer or a already complete player. We have examples of this that have happened this season.

Kyle Naughton, played one decent season for Sheff Utd, clearly bought for the future, especially as the point has been made by many, that defenders, especially full backs, mature with age. Ashley Cole was great going forward in the Arsenal side, but it's only been the last 4 years or so that he has really turned into a good defender. Naughton was never going to be a starter this year.

Jake Livermore, played a couple of decent pre-season friendlies for us then was sent on loan to a lower division club, hoping to set the world alight. Did he? No. In fact, he was actually quite poor for Derby in most of the games, maybe more to do with the style of football, maybe he will be more suited to Peterborough, scored on his debut (although they lost) etc. Who knows?

Giovani.........God it's such a boring subject for a potentially good player. He more than anyone probably suffers from the 'over-hype'. Is it because he is flamboyant? Is it because he played for Barcelona? Whatever it is it is certainly not for his stats. 38 games in total Barcelona, with a poor return of 4 goals and 4 assists for an attacking player, and 3 of those goals came in 1 game. It's good enough ammunition for Keane haters, but not Gio fans? But he's been Mexican man of the match.......against Haiti and Venezuela. If Gio had come from a lower league Spanish team or directly from his homeland, we would be arguing over who was better, him or Andros Townsend. But we don't because of this stigma attached.

Have we 'ruined' Pav's career? Not really. He was a bad buy due to timing, squad balance, a number of reasons. He may not have had the 'chances' some claim, but he has also been pretty shite when he has played. You can definitely name a lot more bad games than good, and even the good weren't actually 'good', it just meant he might have scored. It is however a remarkable turnaround from the fans who cheered sarcastically when he was subbed against Man City in the last home game of last season, to the hero's reception he got coming on, on Saturday. For that he must be grateful.

Bostock is definitely not ruined, it takes an outrageous talent for someone to command a first team place at the age of 16 or 17, Rooney for one being a great example. Bostock will be a good player, but it might not be for another 3 years, or for us. But a lot of that will be down to him and if he wants to be patient.

Taarabt, is playing quite well for QPR but is definitely up and down and not what you would call consistent. Does that count as our 'ruin' or has the buck now passed to QPR?

I'm not one for blaming either party when players don't live up to their billing, sometimes it just doesn't happen for a number of variables which aren't always controllable.

For someone who sits on the fence so hardcore, it is surprising that you often accuse people of being wrong or right.