Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

Rocksuperstar · May 18, 2015

First Spurs manager who was younger than me, so for that reason alone he can do one. Made me feel proper old

Aside from that, seemed like a decent enough bloke, but maybe that was the problem. He didn't have the gumption to impose himself on the club. Sure, he appeared to have made a great impression on the squad initially, but made absolutely no impression at the club and wasn't a strong enough character to do that.

Sure he'll settle into a job with a club somewhere in a top flight, mid table situation, where he'll be the David Moyes of that particular league. Does alright, never seems to set the place alight.

mattstev2000 · May 18, 2015

Shea said:
Well he seems to have the charm and gift of the gab to sell himself and land pretty decent jobs so if he stays at a club like Zenit or moves on to other clubs that are the dominant force in their respective league I am sure he will have more silverware than us as a club - but then we're the 6th biggest club in one of if not the richest/strongest league in Europe

The only relevant question is whether we'd have had more silverware and success in ten years time had we kept AVB as opposed to whatever unfolds in the future. That is going to be pure opinion, mine is no we wouldn't and most likely we'd have been bored to death in the process

As someone else said, this is the first league win in three years for Zenit (it's not like they won it every year before that either) and his accomplishments at Porto haven't been equalled or bettered by anyone other than Mourinho, so lets not pretend he just flits between Celtic type jobs where anyone could get a trophy.

As for the boredom thing, I wasn't bored watching us play. we were lacking in the final third but we were crying out for a decent creative midfielder that could dictate the tempo of a game and pick a pass / unlock a defence. The kind of midfielder he had sold out from under him (Modric) and not replaced adequately (Moutinho).

Jimmypearce7 · May 18, 2015

millsey said:
Where was all this support for him when we lost 5 nil at the lane to Liverpool? We played the worst football I've seen apurs play under him and we got our asses kicked on a number of occasions. I wanted him to work out, but you could see he was mentally shell shocked after that Liverpool game and had to go.

Yes. We have had bad defeats before of course but he seemed to be on a downward spiral, with this following a thrashing by City and rather than come out fighting, seemed to sit there like a deer in headlights with no suggestion that he could cope or knew how to respond. Odd but he was quite odd really, very self absorbed. Dont like all his disseminating in the press about signings either, saying Levy forced them on him. We never no the truth of that stuff but it is clear that Soldado was his choice and he wasnt just someone who didnt work out but a player who lacked the attributes to succeed in the PL where forwards need power or pace and preferably both. It was such a misjudgement that it certainly made me doubt that we should have confidence in him.

Shea · May 18, 2015

mattstev2000 said:
As someone else said, this is the first league win in three years for Zenit (it's not like they won it every year before that either) and his accomplishments at Porto haven't been equalled or bettered by anyone other than Mourinho, so lets not pretend he just flits between Celtic type jobs where anyone could get a trophy.

As for the boredom thing, I wasn't bored watching us play. we were lacking in the final third but we were crying out for a decent creative midfielder that could dictate the tempo of a game and pick a pass / unlock a defence. The kind of midfielder he had sold out from under him (Modric) and not replaced adequately (Moutinho).

And as I replied to the person who said Zenit hadn't won the league for 3 years

CSKA and Anzhi were weaker than they had been (the latter no longer a force at all) and unlike the 2 previous seasons Zenit were by far and away the strongest team (where the last two years they'd been relatively close in quality to CSKA) so it's kind of like winning the league with Celtic after Rangers fell off

As for Porto - no one else has had such a good team at Porto since either (in fact his team was stronger than Jose's in my opinion)

By the same token no one has done what Ramos did with Sevilla since (well now they're back in a similar position in terms of Europa success but still) and I don't see anyone making threads wishing we'd kept Ramos

I wasn't bored watching Bale play - the rest of AVB's team and style of play however was the most boring since the Sugar years post Jurgen

mattstev2000 · May 18, 2015

Shea said:
And as I replied to the person who said Zenit hadn't won the league for 3 years

CSKA and Anzhi were weaker than they had been (the latter no longer a force at all) and unlike the 2 previous seasons Zenit were by far and away the strongest team (where the last two years they'd been relatively close in quality to CSKA) so it's kind of like winning the league with Celtic after Rangers fell off

As for Porto - no one else has had such a good team at Porto since either (in fact his team was stronger than Jose's in my opinion)

By the same token no one has done what Ramos did with Sevilla since (well now they're back in a similar position in terms of Europa success but still) and I don't see anyone making threads wishing we'd kept Ramos

I wasn't bored watching Bale play - the rest of AVB's team and style of play however was the most boring since the Sugar years post Jurgen

I think you're dismissing his achievements because you don't like his style of play. Yes he had a good team at Porto but he got a lot out of them (Falcao has hardly set the world alight at Man Utd under Van Gaal for instance... Hulk hasn't exactly been a world beater).

I think it's difficult to make an honest case against his achievements. I think it's easier to dislike his style of play, all I was saying in regard to that is that not everyone agreed with you that it was boring.

Shea · May 18, 2015

mattstev2000 said:
I think you're dismissing his achievements because you don't like his style of play. Yes he had a good team at Porto but he got a lot out of them (Falcao has hardly set the world alight at Man Utd under Van Gaal for instance... Hulk hasn't exactly been a world beater).

I think it's difficult to make an honest case against his achievements. I think it's easier to dislike his style of play, all I was saying in regard to that is that not everyone agreed with you that it was boring.

I'm not dismissing achievements, what I think of his style of play is irrelevant now he's no longer our manager. I really don't care what AVB does now he's no longer with us

I am just putting his achievements in to context. I am not dismissing them in the same way I don't dismiss what Martin O'Neil or Neil Lennon did at Celtic, the titles still need to be won, I just think they should be put it to context

Your point about Falcoa and Hulk are quite irrelevant - they were so much better than what was around them. Falcoa is not at Man U and hasn't played consistently (plus you know had a major injury which has affected his game dramatically) but it;s hardly like he only performed well under AVB.....he was a beast at Athletico Madrid for example

It's like boxing, you can only beat what's in front of you and credit where it's due a title win is a title win but in context he's done what he SHOULD be doing and at least one Russian ex pro has expressed that he should have wrapped it up quicker than he did due to the low standard of his opponents and with the team he had he should have produced more in the CL and Europa this season

I don't have any problem with AVB, but this thread has posed the question as to whether we wish we had him back or think differently of him now he's won the Russian league. My answer is no I do not because he was managing the best team in the league and he did what he was supposed to do, it also has no relevance to us and I don't think he would have had us performing any better than we are now which is more relevant to me and us.

If Harry Redknapp suddenly became Celtic manager and won the league there would people be making similar threads to this?

THFCSPURS19 · May 18, 2015

ajspurs said:
We had some disgusting performances under AVB, but we've had some equally disgusting performances under Poch this season too IMO.

I haven't denied this. The performance against Villa away this season was one of the worst performances I have ever seen.

However, in the games we have got a decent result, we've played better compared to when we got a decent result in games under AVB IMO.

mattstev2000 · May 18, 2015

Shea said:
I'm not dismissing achievements, what I think of his style of play is irrelevant now he's no longer our manager. I really don't care what AVB does now he's no longer with us

I am just putting his achievements in to context. I am not dismissing them in the same way I don't dismiss what Martin O'Neil or Neil Lennon did at Celtic, the titles still need to be won, I just think they should be put it to context

Your point about Falcoa and Hulk are quite irrelevant - they were so much better than what was around them. Falcoa is not at Man U and hasn't played consistently (plus you know had a major injury which has affected his game dramatically) but it;s hardly like he only performed well under AVB.....he was a beast at Athletico Madrid for example

It's like boxing, you can only beat what's in front of you and credit where it's due a title win is a title win but in context he's done what he SHOULD be doing and at least one Russian ex pro has expressed that he should have wrapped it up quicker than he did due to the low standard of his opponents and with the team he had he should have produced more in the CL and Europa this season

I don't have any problem with AVB, but this thread has posed the question as to whether we wish we had him back or think differently of him now he's won the Russian league. My answer is no I do not because he was managing the best team in the league and he did what he was supposed to do, it also has no relevance to us and I don't think he would have had us performing any better than we are now which is more relevant to me and us.

If Harry Redknapp suddenly became Celtic manager and won the league there would people be making similar threads to this?

I think the problem is I don't see his achievements as comparable to winning with Celtic. I think what he did with Porto and now with Zenit are considerably more difficult than rocking up at Celtic park and winning the league.

A more apt comparison would be if Harry Redknapp went to Porto and won three trophies in a single season and then went to Russia and won the league with Zenit? But I don't think he could do that. Whereas I do think he could quite comfortably win the league as Celtic manager.

THFCSPURS19 · May 18, 2015

yankspurs said:
Even his last match in charge, against liverpool, was good until Paulinho got sent off and typical tottenham calamity kicked in.

We didn't have a shot on target in the whole match. It was not good in any way, shape or form.

Shea · May 18, 2015

mattstev2000 said:
I think the problem is I don't see his achievements as comparable to winning with Celtic. I think what he did with Porto and now with Zenit are considerably more difficult than rocking up at Celtic park and winning the league.

A more apt comparison would be if Harry Redknapp went to Porto and won three trophies in a single season and then went to Russia and won the league with Zenit? But I don't think he could do that. Whereas I do think he could quite comfortably win the league as Celtic manager.

If Harry Redknapp had the Porto team AVB did that season against the same opponents and the Zenit team this season in the current Russian league I don't doubt that he would have similar success

Spursidol · May 18, 2015

Hoops said:
AVB has won the league with Saint Petersburg. Wondered what our opinion of him is, now the dust has settled.

I thought he was a good manager that was unlucky not to get the players he wanted and then suffer the consequences when it all went tits up.

Not unlucky, he was a complete plonker for demanding players with transfer fees and wages which he would/should have known were never affordable.

Only manager who could make a side with Bale in look totally boring.

philip · May 18, 2015

Always liked him, thought he was screwed by the Redknapp loving media, Sherwood and ultimately by Levy not having the balls to give him time.

He tried to build a team from the back first. Unfortunately the media and subsequent fan and board pressure to entertain forced him to buckle and he tried to play attacking football with a team that wasn't ready for it. We shipped goals, lost games and he was sacked.

Shea · May 18, 2015

Spursidol said:
Not unlucky, he was a complete plonker for demanding players with transfer fees and wages which he would/should have known were never affordable.

Only manager who could make a side with Bale in look totally boring.

I also think he had a lot more say in the transfer window we sold Bale, in fact I think a big reason for his sacking was the money spent and failure to spend wisely

His fan boys excuse him of blame for these and say Levy bought them or Baldini did without AVB's consent and that he had Bale sold under his feet and crap given to him

But with the possible exception of Lamela (who I'm sure was a Baldini suggestion) I think he wanted these players, also not Erkisen as I think he was a replacement suggested by Sherwood after AVB's target of Willian fell through

It certainly seems he wanted Soldado over Benteke (a sackable offense in itself perhaps) and the likes of Capoue and Paulinho

I think that window he was backed, maybe not with everyone he wanted but certainly backed with a lot of money to spend and I refuse to believe he was not heavily involved in who we signed and the failure in the transfer window was as big of a factor as his failure on the pitch post Bale and both contributed to his parting company

Mr Pink · May 18, 2015

yankspurs said:
Even his last match in charge, against liverpool, was good until Paulinho got sent off and typical tottenham calamity kicked in.

You've got to be joking. I was at that match and I can tell you from the first minute Liverpool dominated and just kept feeding the ball to Sterling who was roasting Naughton at LB - it was suicidal stuff. Capoue at CB to.

That game was horrendous and the only one who did ok for us that day was Chadli. It was horrific collectively and the socreline didn't flatter them.

It defies belief how anyone can try to claim that was a good performance until the sending off.

Everlasting Seconds · May 18, 2015

Shea said:
I also think he had a lot more say in the transfer window we sold Bale, in fact I think a big reason for his sacking was the money spent and failure to spend wisely

His fan boys excuse him of blame for these and say Levy bought them or Baldini did without AVB's consent and that he had Bale sold under his feet and crap given to him

But with the possible exception of Lamela (who I'm sure was a Baldini suggestion) I think he wanted these players, also not Erkisen as I think he was a replacement suggested by Sherwood after AVB's target of Willian fell through

It certainly seems he wanted Soldado over Benteke (a sackable offense in itself perhaps) and the likes of Capoue and Paulinho

I think that window he was backed, maybe not with everyone he wanted but certainly backed with a lot of money to spend and I refuse to believe he was not heavily involved in who we signed and the failure in the transfer window was as big of a factor as his failure on the pitch post Bale and both contributed to his parting company

If not all your details are correct, the general content is probably correct. However, you conveniently leave out a certain aspect of the story. I've no doubt that his side of the story, of broken promises and lies, deliberate lies or not, carry some truth too.

ultimateloner · May 18, 2015

Pros
Our overall defensive record was better bar 2 heavy defeats (much better than it is now).
Got the most out of Bale.

Cons
Boring football

The whining (I didn't deliver because I didn't get the players I was promised) was annoying but it wasn't relevant to his managerial performance so I ignored it.

I think he is similar to Poch.

spursfan1991 · May 18, 2015

At tImes I thought we played with an incredible amount of tranquility but other times the tranquility was missing. I think moutinho would have brought the tranquility required on a regular basis but Daniel levy thought that moutinho's wages lacked tranquility. To sum up, we needed more tranquility. This could have achieved the projects objectives that would have meant playing at a higher competitive level. Oh well...

ajspurs · May 18, 2015

THFCSPURS19 said:
I haven't denied this. The performance against Villa away this season was one of the worst performances I have ever seen.

However, in the games we have got a decent result, we've played better compared to when we got a decent result in games under AVB IMO.

That was a poor game, nothing in comparison to United away and then Burnley away soon after IMO! But yes I do certainly agree with what you say. It was a while ago but I can't remember being overly excited with many of our performances under AVB, Bale also covered up a lot of what was wrong with us. I guess we can say this season matches at home to Everton, Chelsea and Arsenal delivered performances that were of a very good quality, even if that does make a lot of our awful performances even stranger.

Shea · May 18, 2015

Everlasting Seconds said:
If not all your details are correct, the general content is probably correct. However, you conveniently leave out a certain aspect of the story. I've no doubt that his side of the story, of broken promises and lies, deliberate lies or not, carry some truth too.

I didn't leave it out, they've already been mentioned in the thread

But as Spurs Idol said - he really should have known (if he didn't) that we couldn't afford the fees and wages for the players he wanted.

I mentioned what I said due to it being missing from mostly every AVB decision and people always excusing him for the Bale window and blaming Levy and Baldini throwing him under the bus when I am pretty certain he would have had a lot of say for the signings made and I suggest their failings is equally a big factor in his sacking as his poor performance and boring football

Like that window Levy backed him but it was on the condition that if your transfer choices with the Bale money don't work out you are gone so choose wisely and in Capoue, Soldado, Paulinho he did not choose very wisely (Erkisen and Lamlea I suspect were not his choices and possibly not Chadli or Chiriches either)

Mr Pink · May 18, 2015

For the most part we were better defensively under AVB, but a large part of that was also down to our unambitious style with the ball. We took little risk so we didn't give up possession easily, an approach which served us well away from home. The away game against Everton, where Hugo experienced a head injury, encapsulated our style under AVB IMO. We took a good point but the problem was we'd play a similar way to a bottom half team at home the next week.

He just wasn't capable of adapting our style to the opposition. It was a boring style that never seemed to change. We wern't moving the ball faster at home against the lesser sides. It was always the same thing, and relying on individual brillance from Bale. Lord knows it would of been akin to scraping your eyeballs out had it not been for the emergence of Bale.

We were good away from home because of this risk averse style, and relied on Bale to make the difference, and that owed a lot to the healthy points total. Was never going to be sustainable over the long run though - Bale leaving etc. It would of required him to shift the emphasis on to playing more fluidly as a collective - and that's something he wouldn't of achieved IMO, not from the evidence I was witnessing.

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