Opinion of AVB in hindsight?

[michaelden]

His high line got figured out. All teams had to do was soak up pressure and hit us on the counter. With Kane we got away with it as he could score. Without him we at times looked clueless and sometimes even suicidal. He never managed to adjust the tactics so had to go.

...

TF?! Are you making up history here? AvB was here July 2012 - December 2013 (18 months). In 2012-2013 season Kane made 1 app 0 goals. In the WHOLE of 2013 - 2014 season Kane made 19 apps 4 goals (1 was in the league cup).

So you're saying Kane's 3 goals covered up the flaws of AvB's high line?

--- Oh Really?

 

[Shea]

For the most part we were better defensively under AVB, but a large part of that was also down to our unambitious style with the ball. We took little risk so we didn't give up possession easily, an approach which served us well away from home. The away game against Everton, where Hugo experienced a head injury, encapsulated our style under AVB IMO, We took a good point but the problem was we'd play a similar way to a bottom half team at home the next week.

He just wasn't capable of adapting our style to the opposition. It was a boring style that never seemed to change. We wern't moving the ball faster at home against the lesser sides. It was always the same thing, and relying on individual brillance from Bale. Lord knows it would of been akin to scraping your eyeballs out had it not been for the emergence of Bale.

We were good away from home because of this risk averse style, and relied on Bale to make the difference, and that owed a lot to the healthy points total. Was never going to be sustainable over the long run though - Bale leaving etc. It would of required him to shift the emphasis on to playing more fluidly as a collective - and that's something he wouldn't of achieved IMO, not from the evidence I was witnessing.

Yea to be fair we were defensively better overall statistically because we nulified games and passed the ball around sideways from long periods in inoffensive areas and the opponents were generally happy to sit back safe in the knowledge that we would not create anything and they could hit us on the break relatively easily still

We had Lloris in goal which papered defensive cracks like Bale covered creative ones in attack, but we let in less goals more because the opponents saw less of the ball while we destoryed games with anti football and hoped Lloris would keep the opponets out whenever they carved us open with a few easy passes and BAle would score us a goal when we weren't creating chances with his Roy of the Rovers act

As you say it wasn't sustainable - AVB sees football like an American sport where the tactics are rigid. He seemed to want to slowly grind opponents down with sideways possesion until eventually working the ball in to field goal range and relying on Bale to score the impossible field goal. When he tried to recreate the same with Townsend those field goal attempts started to end up in row Z and AVB was exposed

 

[onthetwo]

He couldnt cut it in the EPL. Not sure what else hasnt already been discussed ad nausium?

 

[eddiebailey]

At tImes I thought we played with an incredible amount of tranquility but other times the tranquility was missing. I think moutinho would have brought the tranquility required on a regular basis but Daniel levy thought that moutinho's wages lacked tranquility. To sum up, we needed more tranquility. This could have achieved the projects objectives that would have meant playing at a higher competitive level. Oh well...

He certainly succeeded in tranquilising the fans.

 

[michaelden]

Don't be pedantic - it's clearly a typo and he meant Bale

I hope he did, but I think he's stuck on the Kane love in and lost all track of time.

G. Bale 2012-2013 season, last at Spurs 44 apps 26 goals. A great season but 9 draws & 8 losses was just too much. We did 72 pts but it wasn't enough. We played some good football too

I remember going into the following season with high hopes. Yes we'd lost Bale but we had a bought some really good players... and then AvB played some funny game by playing players until they were in form then dropping them. And playing players out of position. Yes some were forced due to injuries but not all. I like AvB but the months up to December went from bright to dull and even I was not surprised when he was gone.

 

[Shea]

I hope he did, but I think he's stuck on the Kane love in and lost all track of time.

G. Bale 2012-2013 season, last at Spurs 44 apps 26 goals. A great season but 9 draws & 8 losses was just too much. We did 72 pts but it wasn't enough.

I remember going into the following season with high hopes. Yes we'd lost Bale but we had a bought some really good players... and then AvB played some funny game by playing players until they were in form then dropping them. And playing players out of position. Yes some were forced due to injuries but not all. I like AvB but the months up to December went from bright to dull and even I was not surprised when he was gone.

Of course he meant Bale

I agree fully that the flaws in AVB's style were covered by Bale's brillance that year. Just like Suarez transformed Liverpool in to title challengers and Rogers took credit

AVB got our records point total but he still under achieved in my opinion - 4th was par for the course. We'd been fourth twice under Harry. The points total is more a reflection of the over all strength of the league, the fact is we were fifth best even with Bale being one of the top 3 players in the World and arguably the very best of the lot that season (certainly the best in the league, head and shoulders above any competitor)

If he had played Lloris sooner we'd have not thrown so many points away early on and qualified for the CL I think

The next season - our excitment over the players signed was largely misplaced I think. The worst mistake of all being Soldado over Benteke, I really can't understand why AVB would want a striker who clearly did not suit his style of play, Bobby needs chances in the box, AVB proceeds to play him and leave him completely isolated at box while his new Bale plan in Townsend fires shots into the crowd and ignores every run in the box Soldado ever makes

I think AVB thinks he's smarter than he is when it comes to football management, I think he over complicates things and his tactics are terrible to the eye and only effective if there are some world class players to win the games with indivdual moments while you strangle the life out of the game with dull possession football with little to no attacking intent

He's very much suited to managing the biggest best team in the league with access to the funds to bring in star players, but even at a club like Chelsea he wasn't able to make it work cos while he was a big fish the pond wasn't small enough for him

 

[Dinghy]

His high line got figured out. All teams had to do was soak up pressure and hit us on the counter. With Bale we got away with it as he could score. Without him we at times looked clueless and sometimes even suicidal. He never managed to adjust the tactics so had to go.

Also very boring.

His high line got figured out. All teams had to do was soak up pressure and hit us on the counter. With Kane we got away with it as he could score. Without him we at times looked clueless and sometimes even suicidal. He never managed to adjust the tactics so had to go.

...

TF?! Are you making up history here? AvB was here July 2012 - December 2013 (18 months). In 2012-2013 season Kane made 1 app 0 goals. In the WHOLE of 2013 - 2014 season Kane made 19 apps 4 goals (1 was in the league cup).

So you're saying Kane's 3 goals covered up the flaws of AvB's high line?

--- Oh Really?

Quite clearly attempting to draw comparisons between AVB and Poch...

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I liked him and still think he will go on to be a great manager. My opinion hasn't changed.

 

[michaelden]

Quite clearly attempting to draw comparisons between AVB and Poch...

lol - did Dox just cheekily edit Libaz's post to make a funny and I missed Libaz's so thought he was being a plank?

 

[Dinghy]

lol - did Dox just cheekily edit Libaz's post to make a funny and I missed Libaz's so thought he was being a plank?

 

[WiganSpur]

You've got to be joking. I was at that match and I can tell you from the first minute Liverpool dominated and just kept feeding the ball to Sterling who was roasting Naughton at LB - it was suicidal stuff. Capoue at CB to.

That game was horrendous and the only one who did ok for us that day was Chadli. It was horrific collectively and the socreline didn't flatter them.

It defies belief how anyone can try to claim that was a good performance until the sending off.

It wasn't, it was horrible. But there were certainly mitigating circumstances.

Most notably Capoue & Dawson CB partnership and Naughton at LB. Paulinho getting sent off didn't really help either.

 

[ilikeost]

Some people really do like to talk about the same things over and over again.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Some people really do like to talk about the same things over and over again.

Yep. I am guilty of it too, I don't really know why I posted in the first place TBH. It's probably due to my belief that some people are starting to forget how atrocious (IMO) we were under AVB, in light of result results.

 

[Lilbaz]

His high line got figured out. All teams had to do was soak up pressure and hit us on the counter. With Kane we got away with it as he could score. Without him we at times looked clueless and sometimes even suicidal. He never managed to adjust the tactics so had to go.

...

AVB had 18 months. If we haven't seen much improvement by xmas and are getting 6 goals smashed in against us then we might need to start thinking he might not be right.
I would only think of getting in a marked improvement though. If a Klopp or Ancelotti were available i'd look to upgrade.

 

[ilikeost]

Yep. I am guilty of it too, I don't really know why I posted in the first place TBH. It's probably due to my belief that some people are starting to forget how atrocious (IMO) we were under AVB, in light of result results.

Yeah, that happens. I've seen people suggesting that this end to the season was way worse than Redknapps 11/12 disaster.

 

[Xeeleeyid]

My opinion of AVB was that it's more of a personality issue with him. I think when things are going well and he feels he has 100% support of his decisions, things are 'okay'. When the going gets a bit tough or he is asked to compromise on some of his own opinions, then the problems start.

Both his spells at Porto and Zenit are characterised by AVB managing a club that are richer and more powerful than most of their rivals and being given free reign to bring in the players he wants, where money is (relatively in Porto's case) no realistic object.

By contrast, his spells at Chelsea and Spurs were characterised by mostly promising points hauls, but punctuated by some humiliating defeats. They were also characterised by AVB falling out with the advisors and owners of the club.

AVB never accepts blame in his own head. When results are going against him, he has a tendency to sulk and stew over things that didn't quite go his way. In his own mind, he is a super-coach, compromised by an inability to work with perfect tools.

Even in his second season at Spurs and his Chelsea spell, his points per game ratios were good. He always creates a unit that produces 'a level' of points haul. In more competitive leagues, his teams will be there or thereabouts in the top 6. In a league like the Russian or Portuguese league, it's quite likely that his methods will produce a title challenge or win at the very least.

The standard of football in terms of entertainment value isn't very good however. AVB is a number cruncher in my view, he sets his teams out to restrict the play by suffocating the pitch with the high line and slow possession football. His key-element is that in most of his successful teams he always has a player that can score from nowhere. Whether that is Hulk or Bale, the trick is to keep the score even or within range, then the match-winner pops up to score.

Also, I don't think he is interested in any feedback or criticism. I also don't think he's willing to compromise.

That is what did for him at Spurs. He wanted Oscar, Moutinho, Willian, Hulk and Leandro Damiao. When we couldn't get these players, either due to their price, complicated ownership arrangements, or whether we were simply blown out of the water by the competition, he didn't have viable alternatives, as to him, nobody compared. I think (and there's no evidence for this, it's just an impression i've got from the players we did eventually sign, how ofen they were played by AVB and his and the club's comments afterwards) that he just threw his toy's out of the pram and when he was offered players as alternatives he just said 'oh well fine then, just do what you want'.

In these situations, rather than work with the club to make the best of the situation, I think he withdrew into his shell and started acting unprofessionally.

He may not have wanted Erik Lamela, but to not play him in the league and then give him his debut away to Man City, in the toughest possible circumstances, beggars belief and reflects very poorly on his professionalism and his ability to make it as a top-level coach at a big European club.

Clearly, this was a big 'up-yours' to Baldini and Levy. "Let's see how your Willian alternative fares in this sh**-fest then, fu**-you!"

An action of pure self-interest and arrogance, with no thought for the long-term future of the club, or this young player's confidence taking a massive pasting in a 6-0 horror-show.

I think from that game on, he was clearly on the self-destruct trip and I personally found those actions pretty hard to stomach, as I suspect did Levy and those at the club, as I suspect similar actions had the same effect at Chelsea, where it almost seemed he looked to deliberately force a system on John Terry that exposed his lack of pace and mobility in a similar 'up-yours, i'm the boss' move that only had one outcome from him.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

My opinion of AVB was that it's more of a personality issue with him. I think when things are going well and he feels he has 100% support of his decisions, things are 'okay'. When the going gets a bit tough or he is asked to compromise on some of his own opinions, then the problems start.

Both his spells at Porto and Zenit are characterised by AVB managing a club that are richer and more powerful than most of their rivals and being given free reign to bring in the players he wants, where money is (relatively in Porto's case) no realistic object.

By contrast, his spells at Chelsea and Spurs were characterised by mostly promising points hauls, but punctuated by some humiliating defeats. They were also characterised by AVB falling out with the advisors and owners of the club.

AVB never accepts blame in his own head. When results are going against him, he has a tendency to sulk and stew over things that didn't quite go his way. In his own mind, he is a super-coach, compromised by an inability to work with perfect tools.

Even in his second season at Spurs and his Chelsea spell, his points per game ratios were good. He always creates a unit that produces 'a level' of points haul. In more competitive leagues, his teams will be there or thereabouts in the top 6. In a league like the Russian or Portuguese league, it's quite likely that his methods will produce a title challenge or win at the very least.

The standard of football in terms of entertainment value isn't very good however. AVB is a number cruncher in my view, he sets his teams out to restrict the play by suffocating the pitch with the high line and slow possession football. His key-element is that in most of his successful teams he always has a player that can score from nowhere. Whether that is Hulk or Bale, the trick is to keep the score even or within range, then the match-winner pops up to score.

Also, I don't think he is interested in any feedback or criticism. I also don't think he's willing to compromise.

That is what did for him at Spurs. He wanted Oscar, Moutinho, Willian, Hulk and Leandro Damiao. When we couldn't get these players, either due to their price, complicated ownership arrangements, or whether we were simply blown out of the water by the competition, he didn't have viable alternatives, as to him, nobody compared. I think (and there's no evidence for this, it's just an impression i've got from the players we did eventually sign, how ofen they were played by AVB and his and the club's comments afterwards) that he just threw his toy's out of the pram and when he was offered players as alternatives he just said 'oh well fine then, just do what you want'.

In these situations, rather than work with the club to make the best of the situation, I think he withdrew into his shell and started acting unprofessionally.

He may not have wanted Erik Lamela, but to not play him in the league and then give him his debut away to Man City, in the toughest possible circumstances, beggars belief and reflects very poorly on his professionalism and his ability to make it as a top-level coach at a big European club.

Clearly, this was a big 'up-yours' to Baldini and Levy. "Let's see how your Willian alternative fares in this sh**-fest then, fu**-you!"

An action of pure self-interest and arrogance, with no thought for the long-term future of the club, or this young player's confidence taking a massive pasting in a 6-0 horror-show.

I think from that game on, he was clearly on the self-destruct trip and I personally found those actions pretty hard to stomach, as I suspect did Levy and those at the club, as I suspect similar actions had the same effect at Chelsea, where it almost seemed he looked to deliberately force a system on John Terry that exposed his lack of pace and mobility in a similar 'up-yours, i'm the boss' move that only had one outcome from him.

Eriksen was the Willian alternative, not Lamela. The original plan was to buy Willian and Lamela.

 

[Hazelton]

Good manager, but wrong club at the wrong time.

 

[Shea]

AVB had 18 months. If we haven't seen much improvement by xmas and are getting 6 goals smashed in against us then we might need to start thinking he might not be right.
I would only think of getting in a marked improvement though. If a Klopp or Ancelotti were available i'd look to upgrade.

Poch hasn't really shown us enough in terms of encouragement so far

Yes we got to a cup final but really we got an easy set of draws and laboured our way to the final in truth

We played well for a period of time around the new year, beast Chelsea well and completely outclassed and beat Arsenal for the first time since Ramos' cup semi final win

Other than that though we've looked pretty poor all season and were lucky in many games to take points, positives to be taken perhaps for our attitude to keep scoring so many late goals but negatives in as far as that seems to have gone away now and the improvement I expected to see by the end of the season to show us what we have to look forward to next year have not been evident

He will be given the summer hopefully to start modelling the team in his image - a lot of shit needs to go and a fair few players need to be brought in.

I think his job will be safe next season unless he has us struggling for survival early on, because unlike AVB the team Poch has inherited has been established to have a lot of work to do where as with AVB the expectation was that we were still more than good enough to compete for top four

I'm still not convinced by Poch, but I give him the benefit of the doubt and will wait to see how he moulds the squad in teh coming window and if we start to show signs of tangible progression and forming in to a strong unit

If he can't do it after the window I'd have to question his ability somewhat though because you only have to look at Koeman for Southampton this season to see that it doesn't have to take that long to produce some results (though his test will be if he can sustain it next year of course)

 

[Spurslove]

I always thought AVB was an over-hyped mumbling idiot.

Looking back at him now, I must admit, I think he's an over-hyped mumbling idiot.