Why Trophies don't matter any more

[Shadydan]

The whole thinking of the thread does .

Because you're looking at the quote in a negative context

 

[nasescoba1985]

Alternatively, look at a lot of successful clubs and their journey as winners started with domestic cups. The City team first got a taste of winning in the FA Cup, Fergie has often talked about that first FA Cup as very important for the players and clubs mind-set. If you don't believe me, then listen to the ex professional players. They are not just mentioning it to knock us. Whatever you think of their punditry they know far more about professional footballers mind-sets than you or I ever can. It gives players (or any sportsman in fact) belief and know how they can draw on in bigger games to come. It can also give hungry players even more hunger to repeat the process and help convince players that they can win things with Spurs.

The reason winning the cups meant nothing to those teams you've listed above is because they were anomalies. The players knew it, the fans knew it. A great day out the fans won't forget, but those clubs had others issues and other priorities. Our priority (or it should be) is to win trophies and be successful. Not just become every neutrals favourite other team to watch.

Was exactly my point mate. People using the whole Wigan wont the fa Cup bullshit is laughable. If we win the fa Cup this year, the feeling around the club and the media frenzy will be a huge positive for us. It will also show our players that they can achieve silver ware at this club and won't need to move on. It will put us on a great step for our new stadium aswell. No trophies = failure.

 

[Coyboy]

No no no no sorry we can't get into this mentality of thinking. There is absolutely no reason we can't take the top four and go for the FA cup, to say we may get beaten by United or Chelsea is simply a losing mentality. I agree finishing top for is a sign of consistency and development, but we have done that already. We need to move our sights on. Our talisman and club hero has said he wants trophies, he has said if in 2 years time he looks back and hasn't anything to show for it, it will be a disappointment. Good players with a winning mentality want to win things, if we cannot supply that, we have no chance of keeping our top players and honestly who could blame them. Come on how is finishing top 4 with at least an FA cup final anything like doing a treble or better?

We are saying now we want to be like what we laughed at Arsenal for doing, I simply don't understand why people think not winning anything is continually acceptable.

I'm agreeing that we should be able to do both but in the list of current priorities it has to go: CL then FA Cup.

Kane is always going to say that; he's media trained. When he means trophies, he doesn't mean the FA Cup in itself. That would be great if it then fosters that "winning mentality" attitude which I would say we already have but it needs to be league titles. We can't buy the title a la City/Chelsea. We have to be up there in the CL, getting the revenue, getting/keeping the players. They won't stay because we won the Cup but missed out on the CL. They might stay if they see year on year improvement.

 

[Coyboy]

Alternatively, look at a lot of successful clubs and their journey as winners started with domestic cups. The City team first got a taste of winning in the FA Cup, Fergie has often talked about that first FA Cup as very important for the players and clubs mind-set. If you don't believe me, then listen to the ex professional players. They are not just mentioning it to knock us. Whatever you think of their punditry they know far more about professional footballers mind-sets than you or I ever can. It gives players (or any sportsman in fact) belief and know how they can draw on in bigger games to come. It can also give hungry players even more hunger to repeat the process and help convince players that they can win things with Spurs.

The reason winning the cups meant nothing to those teams you've listed above is because they were anomalies. The players knew it, the fans knew it. A great day out the fans won't forget, but those clubs had others issues and other priorities. Our priority (or it should be) is to win trophies and be successful. Not just become every neutrals favourite other team to watch.

I agree. But winning the Cup in isolation without CL qualification (which I believe City got when they won the Cup as well as having a few quid behind them) is meaningless. I am not sure if I can be any clearer than that. I agree with your last few sentences but if we win the Cup and don't get in the top four it will actually harm our prospects of winning future trophies.

I've had days out at Wembley, I have been to games on cup runs. I want my club to win the big titles and compete for the league. If we fall short, we fall short but at least we are trying to aim high rather than putting everything into winning a piece of silverware at the cost of more substantial growth and achievement.

 

[Coyboy]

It's about context. None of those clubs were in the same position as we are now. An FA Cup was an outlier result for a club that wasn't capable of capitalising on it. Even Arsenal are in a different situation where the Cup papered over cracks of a lazy and ambivalent, overpaid squad - which isn't the case for us either. I think we, as a club, are capable of building on it and it would be positive for our development to win it.

It's clear we're a very good footballing team, but it's also clear that we have come up slightly short in big crunch situations. We will probably have to play Utd or Chelsea if we hope to win it, and to beat one of those shithouse clubs, with very experienced managers, in a huge knockout match, would be great for our development in my opinion. Wasn't it Vincent Kompany (one of the more intelligent footballers out there) who stressed the importance of City winning their first trophy, even if it wasn't the biggest or most glamourous pot on offer.

In terms of our development, we know that we can be consistently high-level in the league, even if that level is slightly lower this year at the moment (or rather the level of others has increased), and we now know that we can compete in the CL in the group stages, but we're still naive in knockout football. So an FA Cup win could help to change this.

As Donki says, there is no excuse for us chasing both this year, none at all. We should prioritise these three games like we would have prioritised the 2 after Juve if we had made it through. Most teams would love the draw we have had so far (apart from Arsenal, as it would be quite a hard one compared to their recent years) and the fact we will be playing any more matches 'at home' if we can get past Swansea. Only three more matches, and you know it will mean a lot to the players if they win it.

I agree with the crux of your post but the boldened bit is questionable. Didn't we beat United, Arsenal and draw with Liverpool? Didn't we beat the same teams to secure second spot last year? I agree we should go f or both, but we need to "prioritise" the league in the sense that I'd hate to see us play a weaker team against Leicester for example if our CL qualification rests on it for the Cup final or even subconsciously prioritise the former over the latter.

 

[Donki]

I'm agreeing that we should be able to do both but in the list of current priorities it has to go: CL then FA Cup.

Kane is always going to say that; he's media trained. When he means trophies, he doesn't mean the FA Cup in itself. That would be great if it then fosters that "winning mentality" attitude which I would say we already have but it needs to be league titles. We can't buy the title a la City/Chelsea. We have to be up there in the CL, getting the revenue, getting/keeping the players. They won't stay because we won the Cup but missed out on the CL. They might stay if they see year on year improvement.

Considering Poch himself hasn't won anything yet and we're trophyless in 20 odd years, I think the FA Cup would be a decent start. Especially considering the position we are in.

 

[Coyboy]

Considering Poch himself hasn't won anything yet and we're trophyless in 20 odd years, I think the FA Cup would be a decent start. Especially considering the position we are in.

I agree- a start but it will mean nothing if we are not competing again next year and not in the CL.

These sorts of trophies are over-rated. They are relices that are perpetuated by sponsors to bring in more money and make football more "competitive". They seem to mean more than their equivalents on the continent.

Don't get me wrong I loved the three last trophies we won but they were generally preceded and followed by mediocrity. I don't quite buy this 'if we win a trophy (i.e. cup) it will prove something, help us keep Kane etc. It won't, in itself. It will prove that we won a cup.

 

[Mullers]

I agree- a start but it will mean nothing if we are not competing again next year and not in the CL.

These sorts of trophies are over-rated. They are relices that are perpetuated by sponsors to bring in more money and make football more "competitive". They seem to mean more than their equivalents on the continent.

Don't get me wrong I loved the three last trophies we won but they were generally preceded and followed by mediocrity. I don't quite buy this 'if we win a trophy (i.e. cup) it will prove something, help us keep Kane etc. It won't, in itself. It will prove that we won a cup.

It won't mean nothing, our history is built on cup wins. We've had a good few years of qualifying for the CL but it's not realistic to think we can qualify every season.

 

[Kilkenny Cat]

Qualifying for next year's CL is FAR more important than winning the FA Cup. Much as I'd love to see us win the Cup, I'd rather see us in the CL again next season.

If you don't agree, fair enough. But being permanent residents of the Champions League is, I'd suggest, much likelier to help keep our stars, and attract new ones, than a domestic trophy. Several nights out at Wembley versus one day out at Wembley, as it were.

 

[M.I.B.]

Was exactly my point mate. People using the whole Wigan wont the fa Cup bullshit is laughable. If we win the fa Cup this year, the feeling around the club and the media frenzy will be a huge positive for us. It will also show our players that they can achieve silver ware at this club and won't need to move on. It will put us on a great step for our new stadium aswell. No trophies = failure.

I get the feeling that with all the "Spurs have to win a trophy" talk, if we do win the FA Cup it will quickly change to "ah, but it's only the FA Cup. Not a big trophy".

Can hear it now.

 

[dagraham]

I get the feeling that with all the "Spurs have to win a trophy" talk, if we do win the FA Cup it will quickly change to "ah, but it's only the FA Cup. Not a big trophy".

Can hear it now.

Yeah probably, but no one could argue against the idea that qualifying for the CL again for the third successive year, reaching the knock out stages of this campaign AND winning a trophy is significant progress.

Also the idea we choke in important games would be dispelled. We need to get the monkey off our back.

 

[Coyboy]

It won't mean nothing, our history is built on cup wins. We've had a good few years of qualifying for the CL but it's not realistic to think we can qualify every season.

Yes and I'd like our future to be built on more than cup wins. I'd say it is realistic at the moment to say we can qualify, we may not each year. We may not this year but we have the capability to do so.

 

[dagraham]

Yes and I'd like our future to be built on more than cup wins. I'd say it is realistic at the moment to say we can qualify, we may not each year. We may not this year but we have the capability to do so.

Agree, but I don't see why we can't do both. It doesn't have to be a straight up choice.

There are 9 games left and we have a 5 point cushion on the 5th placed team, who we also have to play. We're 3 games away from winning the cup, where the semi and final are both at our home ground. We're out of the CL now and have a big enough squad.

It's all in our hands and there are no excuses.

 

[Coyboy]

Agree, but I don't see why we can't do both. It doesn't have to be a straight up choice.

There are 9 games left and we have a 5 point cushion on the 5th placed team, who we also have to play. We're 3 games away from winning the cup, where the semi and final are both at our home ground. We're out of the CL now and have a big enough squad.

It's all in our hands and there are no excuses.

No and I never disagreed with that.

 

[Donki]

I get the feeling that with all the "Spurs have to win a trophy" talk, if we do win the FA Cup it will quickly change to "ah, but it's only the FA Cup. Not a big trophy".

Can hear it now.

Ofc it will but it will stop all the bottler bullshit we have to listen too. OFC CL qualification is the most important thing but we have a team/squad that should be able to handle bothz

 

[mattyspurs]

It won't mean nothing, our history is built on cup wins. We've had a good few years of qualifying for the CL but it's not realistic to think we can qualify every season.

I can't speak for everyone Mullers, but I think this is where the issue lay "our history is built on cup wins"

Damn right, and we are all proud of our history, however I think that this is what the media, and other fans think too. "it's ok, it's Spurs. They are a good cup team but nothing else. Anyone can win a cup on their day" yada yada yada

The fans here who are dismissing a cup win (even though i don't really think they are properly dismissing it) Want to be known for our new history as not just a domestic cup team. They want to be known going forward as proper title challengers, QF/SF maybe further in the CL etc etc etc...

The domestic trophies will hopefully just be a by product of the greater things going forwards.

I hope that makes sense?

 

[Mullers]

I can't speak for everyone Mullers, but I think this is where the issue lay "our history is built on cup wins"

Damn right, and we are all proud of our history, however I think that this is what the media, and other fans think too. "it's ok, it's Spurs. They are a good cup team but nothing else. Anyone can win a cup on their day" yada yada yada

The fans here who are dismissing a cup win (even though i don't really think they are properly dismissing it) Want to be known for our new history as not just a domestic cup team. They want to be known going forward as proper title challengers, QF/SF maybe further in the CL etc etc etc...

The domestic trophies will hopefully just be a by product of the greater things going forwards.

I hope that makes sense?

It does and I think these days we are known for being a consistent league side. The top sides can concentrate on the league and win trophies, I think we have to do the same. Arsenal last won the league in 2004, they qualified for the league every single year bar last season. But they didn't win anything at all for 9 years and they got a tremendous amount of stick for that.

I don't really see why other fans and the media would treat us differently if we can't get the job done. And surely the Arsenal case tells us that qualifying for the CL every season is not a guarantee for anything.

 

[Shadydan]

Ofc it will but it will stop all the bottler bullshit we have to listen too. OFC CL qualification is the most important thing but we have a team/squad that should be able to handle bothz

It won't, media/fans will just move the goalposts to suit their narrative/agenda.

 

[Donki]

It won't, media/fans will just move the goalposts to suit their narrative/agenda.

It doesn't matter if we won the league they would say the same things "what matters is retaining it" etc.

 

[Mullers]

It doesn't matter if we won't the league they would say the same things "what matters is retaining it" etc.

If we won it, I wouldn't care what they say.