What's happened to our supposed transfer policy?

[Real_madyidd]

All fine and dandy, but it ignores one crashingly obvious point. Come Friday we'll have spent at least £20m improving the squad that was all set to challenge for fourth, assuming that Hutton and Gilberto are done deals. It could yet be a good deal more.

Which suggests what?

Spot on. Backstabbing fuckers.

 

[sloth]

All fine and dandy, but it ignores one crashingly obvious point. Come Friday we'll have spent at least £20m improving the squad that was all set to challenge for fourth, assuming that Hutton and Gilberto are done deals. It could yet be a good deal more.

Which suggests what?

And Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and every other club continue to spend.

It suggests that our squad has plenty of room for improvement, that the Premier League is not a static proposition and that we have a management team that sees it and is prepared to invest

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The funny thing is a lot of us have been saying for a long time that we have no written in stone policy on buying young players - the likes of Lee, Rocha, Naybet and Berbatov should be proof of this - we've also said that if the right type of player came available and we thought there was value in his purchase we would buy him. We said this under Jol and we say it under Ramos.

We also said that Jol's sacking was inevitable for football reasons. We argued for it for football reasons and we denied that he was hamstrung by the clubs upper management. We said he was part of a buying committee and a structure that ensured he'd have one of the best squads in the country.

We also said we had a squad to challenge for the top four. Levy said it, Jol said in front of the WHL faithful at the end of last season, the press said, the experts said it, other managers have said it since, most of us thought it. In addition we had challenged for the top four in recent history. We didn't this season and we laid the blame at the feet of the coach. The apologists said it was due to the squad. Remarkably from a 'backward-sliding' start, Ramos has, with an injury ravaged squad, shown the potential we have.


The simple answer is what some of us have been saying from day one. Evidence backs one consistent argument. No jumping through hoops for some, no desperate contortions in order to make the facts fit the theory. It has been as we have said, what we predicted has been shown to have happened, the version we claimed has been supported by what has happened.

On the other side of the coin, you've got people with a known passion for a particular figure, an unwillingness to let go of their adoration and as a result a clear willingness to believe whatever is neccesary to fit their version of events.

In short, one side argues evolution the other the equivalent of Intelligent Design. One empirical the other faith.

Exceedingly well put.

 

[striebs]

Without being funny how do you know this?

And wern't people saying that Ramos was only recruited because he would be more attractive to investors who may consider buying the club?

My personal feling is that the policy is no different to what it was before.

I've gone on record as saying that Ramos was mainly recruited because he looked better in a sales prospectus .
Since then I've come to admire him as a coach (even though some of his subs are wreckless and he left his last club midseason)

Legend , I think your admiration for Levy is misplaced but I like the way you make your points .

During the last window we recruited potential at well over the going rate (KPB , Kaboule) but we didn't spash big cash on aging sicknotes . You can look at it as the policy having matured if you want .

I'm happy about this progression but would rather we had bypassed the intermediate stages and payed 25m+Chimbo for Alves who is a genuinely top class player than offer 8m for an albeit Scottish steady defender .

Jol wanted experience but it was withheld from him , there is little doubt (that with the players Jol requested who would have cost peanuts) he could have delivered fifth place ad infinitem and potentially fourth if the board had not undermined him .

 

[sloth]

It is not about being blinded by loyalty; it is about having the sense to see that, rather than assuming the grass is always greener, it is better to invest in lawnfeed.

Sometimes, yes. That's the trouble with good analogies, they always fit the argument you want to make perfectly :wink:. All analogies aside, Jol had shown this season he wasn't good enough.

I always had reservations about Jol, but they were as nothing compared to my reservations about our transfer policy. I certainly did not believe that our summer transfer activity had equipped us for a top four finish. (And I do not recall Jol saying it prior to the duress of that ridiculous statement issued by the club.)

I argued vociferously, that the acme of success this season should not be fourth, I also argued the acme of failure should not be fifth or sixth. The gap between us and the top four was greater than it might appear. This is not the same as saying we could not challenge for the top four, that we could not put pressure on. Probably all of last season's top four were odds on or close to even money to do it again this year, but our odds would have shrunken from around 8 to closer to 5, still odds against but reason for encouragement and proof of the good squad (the fifth best in the league) at Jol's disposal.

If it was a question of appointing a new manger I would pick Ramos over Jol every time. However I thought Jol had done a decent, if unspectacular, job, with the resources avaialble to him, and that he should have been given the opportunity and resources to build on that. Rather than bringing in a new manager who would set back progress by ripping up the blueprint and starting again.

I think that's fair enough. I also think history's proved you wrong. Jol was given an opportunity and he spunked it and that's why he was sacked. His performance this season was worse than any other Spurs manager's in a single season, worse than Gross, Ardiles and Santini and by an order of magnitude. The squad at his disposal was better tha the squads they had by a similar order of magnitude. And he'd been able to stamp his mark on the squad in a way they never got to.

Ultimately however I think the appointment of Ramos has been a good thing

Agreed

- because he has given the Board the reality check they bloody well needed.

?? The board appointed Ramos, if anyone needed a reality check it was a section of the support. They continue to need a reality check I'm afraid.

 

[striebs]

And Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and every other club continue to spend.

It suggests that our squad has plenty of room for improvement, that the Premier League is not a static proposition and that we have a management team that sees it and is prepared to invest

You make excuses for Levy's board if you want but the climate has not changed significantly from August .

Levy and your precious board fucked up between seasons and are now having to pull out the stops to cover their arses .

 

[SpurSince57]

And Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool and every other club continue to spend.

It suggests that our squad has plenty of room for improvement, that the Premier League is not a static proposition and that we have a management team that sees it and is prepared to invest

Yes, they've all splashed out big-time this window, haven't they?

Well, Chelsea have signed Anelka, but that's pretty much it. Sorry, but that statement is a monumental pile of arse.

Are you seriously suggesting that things have moved on so rapidly in less than six months that we need to massively reinforce the squad?

 

[striebs]

....but our odds would have shrunken from around 8 to closer to 5, still odds against but reason for encouragement and proof of the good squad (the fifth best in the league) at Jol's disposal.

Really , perhaps you can explain to the rest of us which of our recruits during the last window significantly improved our first 11 ?

Take Levy's cock out of your mouth and try and be honest .

 

[sloth]

We can, and will, all go round and round on this one, and there are lots of unknowables. However, some things are pretty clear:

i) of the £40 million spent in the summer, only Bale has been an immediate success, and unfortunately he's now crocked. Bent has been unlucky in that we kept hold of Berba and Defoe, so he's had little game time to prove he's worth a place. But Kaboul, Boateng and Taarabt are patently not ready. This was obvious to Jol, and it's obvious to Ramos too, so our summer signings were not, overall, successful;

This £40m was spent to enhance a squad which had just finished fifth. Had we remained in that top five, six, seven you might have a point because whatever else they did our transfer activities certainly didn't weaken us. We didn't. We plummeted into the relegation zone and not merely after three, four, five games, but after 10, 11, 12. Villa on the other hand invested a pittance and bought the likes of Harewood and yet soared. Their squad is not better than ours (it is worse), there was a difference though.

ii) Ramos has changed a lot of things behind the scenes, especially diet and fitness. But, visibly, he is a more tactically flexible coach than Jol, willing to change the system to accomodate the strengths and weaknesses of the players (eg his use of Zokora as an auxiliary defender, his inspired doubling up of Steed and O'Hara against Ronaldo, his belated recognition that Tainio is the nearest thing we have to Poulsen, his rejuvenation of players like Lennon and Jenas). On the evidence at Sevilla and so far at Spurs, I also think he's a fantastic game coach, willing to be bold and aggressive in his tactical and personnel switches.

I completely agree.

So, my take is that we still spent the money badly in the summer. But Ramos is able to make better use of what we have. And if we can attract a couple more big players to the club - a Lucho Gonzalez for instance - then I'm much more optimistic of our chances of breaking into the Top Four than I was under Big Martin Jol (much as I will always respect him).

I don't think we spent the money badly, but time will tell. I trade on sports for a living. We generate as close as possible to true odds and by comparing them to the market we find value. That does not mean we'll always back the most likely outcome, or that we always win, and the acme of our success is not that we did well or did poorly on this game or that, with this bet or that one, it is judged in the round, year on year, in the knowledge that regardless of specific results over the long term we are profitable. Transfers policy is exactly like this.

I also think Levy recognizes this, which is why he's sanctioned the expenditure of pretty big money on two very experienced players: Woodgate & Gilberto.

I refer you to the answer I gave to SS57 above.

 

[sloth]

Yes, they've all splashed out big-time this window, haven't they?

Well, Chelsea have signed Anelka, but that's pretty much it. Sorry, but that statement is a monumental pile of arse.

Are you seriously suggesting that things have moved on so rapidly in less than six months that we need to massively reinforce the squad?

I'm suggesting that when any club be it Chelsea, Utd, Liverpool or Spurs see an opportunity to improve a squad they will do so. This is not evidence of a changed policy, lol, it is evidence of an ongoing mission to improve our squad.

And that statement's not a pile of arse, it's rational and obvious and I wonder why you're reluctant to see it in that light and prefer to bluster instead??

 

[SpurSince57]

This £40m was spent to enhance a squad which had just finished fifth. Had we remained in that top five, six, seven you might have a point because whatever else they did our transfer activities certainly didn't weaken us. We didn't. We plummeted into the relegation zone and not merely after three, four, five games, but after 10, 11, 12. Villa on the other hand invested a pittance and bought the likes of Harewood and yet soared. Their squad is not better than ours (it is worse), there was a difference though.

In which case, it was largely wasted. Unless you're talking about two years' time, when it might pay off. Unfortunately, the squad needed players that would make an immediate impact. With the exception of Bale, it didn't get them.

There is a difference between us and Villa. Hiram J. Pipesucker didn't totally undermine O'Neill before the season was five minutes old.

An easy oversight to make.

 

[sloth]

Really , perhaps you can explain to the rest of us which of our recruits during the last window significantly improved our first 11 ?

Take Levy's cock out of your mouth and try and be honest .

I assure you I have no special passion for Levy, lol, he's not the sort of character to arouse unbridled passion, unlike a certain Ducth fellow late of WHL.

On the more substantive point of last window's recruits, I think Bent, Bale and Kaboul significantly improved us, not always in the immediate term, but not always not either. I don't believe in judging decisions made in the hear-and-now with the benefit of hindsight, that is like the idiots you get on the betfair forums saying if only I'd backed so-and-so I would have won, or if I hadn't backed that loser I wouldn't have lost. I'm happy with the way in which decisions are made, I think they have seen us a long way a long a journey which I hope will see us join the elite. I hope we continue in the same vein and feel extremely optimistic about our future.

 

[sloth]

In which case, it was largely wasted. Unless you're talking about two years' time, when it might pay off. Unfortunately, the squad needed players that would make an immediate impact. With the exception of Bale, it didn't get them.

This is the answer I gave to Streibs above...

On the more substantive point of last window's recruits, I think Bent, Bale and Kaboul significantly improved us, not always in the immediate term, but not always not either. I don't believe in judging decisions made in the hear-and-now with the benefit of hindsight, that is like the idiots you get on the betfair forums saying if only I'd backed so-and-so I would have won, or if I hadn't backed that loser I wouldn't have lost. I'm happy with the way in which decisions are made, I think they have seen us a long way a long a journey which I hope will see us join the elite. I hope we continue in the same vein and feel extremely optimistic about our future.

There is a difference between us and Villa. Hiram J. Pipesucker didn't totally undermine O'Neill before the season was five minutes old.

An easy oversight to make.

Which is a convenient stand on which to hang your hat. Alternatively you can look at what many of us have been saying all along, consistently and with no need to twist events to fit our case, and that is that Jol, whilst an amazing bloke, simply wasn't good enough to get us more than fifth. Don't believe me? Then trust in the words of the great man himself... it was he more than anyone, who insisted that a club like Spurs was over achieving when it finished fifth.

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm suggesting that when any squad be it Chelsea, Utd, Liverpool or Spurs see an opportunity to improve a squad they will do so. This is not evidence of a changed policy, lol, it is evidence of an ongoing mission to improve our squad.

And that statement's not a pile of arse, it's rational and obvious and I wonder why you're reluctant to see it in that light and prefer to bluster instead??

No, it's neither rational nor obvious. What's rational and obvious (at any rate, rational and obvious to anyone who hasn't swallowed the Levy bullshit hook, line and sinker) is that Ramos has come in, taken one look at the squad, told Levy that it isn't good enough, and pretty much held him to ransom. Are you seriously, seriously telling us that we are spending this amount of money on minor adjustments?

 

[DFF]

Everyone loves to trot out the 'top 4 capable squad' comment from Levy. Has no one considered that may have been the sentiment passed on from Jol at some point? That it wasn't merely Levy's sole assessment? And if it was, i'm disappointed that Jol may have simply been a yes man.

"Martin has confirmed to me that he feels he is equipped with a squad and a determination to take the challenge."

 

[sloth]

No, it's neither rational nor obvious. What's rational and obvious (at any rate, rational and obvious to anyone who hasn't swallowed the Levy bullshit hook, line and sinker) is that Ramos has come in, taken one look at the squad, told Levy that it isn't good enough, and pretty much held him to ransom. Are you seriously, seriously telling us that we are spending this amount of money on minor adjustments?

And what about the amount of money we spent last window? Was that Ramos' influence?

 

[striebs]

This is the answer I gave to Streibs above...

On the more substantive point of last window's recruits, I think Bent, Bale and Kaboul significantly improved us, not always in the immediate term, but not always not either. I don't believe in judging decisions made in the hear-and-now with the benefit of hindsight, that is like the idiots you get on the betfair forums saying if only I'd backed so-and-so I would have won, or if I hadn't backed that loser I wouldn't have lost. I'm happy with the way in which decisions are made, I think they have seen us a long way a long a journey which I hope will see us join the elite. I hope we continue in the same vein and feel extremely optimistic about our future.


Which is a convenient stand on which to hang your hat. Alternatively you can look at what many of us have been saying all along, consistently and with no need to twist events to fit our case, and that is that Jol, whilst an amazing bloke, simply wasn't good enough to get us more than fifth. Don't believe me? Then trust in the words of the great man himself... it was he more than anyone, who insisted that a club like Spurs was over achieving when it finished fifth.

The truth is we will never know what Jol could have achieved with a board who were pulling in the same direction .

My personal feeling (which might be wrong) is that Ramos is what Jol could have become a couple of years down the road .

Perhaps the key point is that Ramos will be better able to manage his superiors - managing upwards ; a pretty well established concept .

 

[striebs]

Everyone loves to trot out the 'top 4 capable squad' comment from Levy. Has no one considered that may have been the sentiment passed on from Jol at some point? That it wasn't merely Levy's sole assessment? And if it was, i'm disappointed that Jol may have simply been a yes man.

"Martin has confirmed to me that he feels he is equipped with a squad and a determination to take the challenge."

DFF , this post does not do you credit .

 

[SpurSince57]

Well, he may have been going along with the party line. A little disappointing, and somewhat at odds with his statement that we'd over-achieved. Then, one has to remember the fate of the last manager that complained about spending. Sacked two weeks before a cup semi-final, if I recall correctly.

And as for the improvement in results, it's less clear than one might imagine. When Jol got the boot, we were just one point down on the corresponding fixtures last season. We're down four under Ramos.

No wonder he thinks the squad isn't good enough.

 

[SpurSince57]

And what about the amount of money we spent last window? Was that Ramos' influence?

What about it?