The realism of a full rebuild

[Scorpio666]

I'd be keen to have the opinion of someone in the stadium to corroborate something I thought I noticed with the crowd and players, albeit on TV.

Mind you I was watching the game with it being 4am and the sound turned a fair bit down, but strictly from an arm-chair perspective, it feels like Conte, with his ability to inspire but also with his demand for support, has created a weird dynamic in the stadium? The support was vociferous and I thought we were on the verge of starting to dominate the game around the time the Reggie chance and our first goal happened, but also the tail end of both halves, it sounded on TV like the crowd was starting to moan at every misplaced and/or unadventurous pass. Not blaming Conte for inspiring support of course, but it feels like he gets the crowd going and once that happens the crowd goes, for better or for worse. I think the boos at HT are linked to this.

What with some of our players being nice guys but absolute ice-cream puffs, I thought Winks, Sanchez and to a lesser degree Davies melted under the turn of the crowd. I strongly felt Davies' mistake for the goal in particular was more of a mental thing, you could see it on his face. It also seemed to me that PEH kinda gave up too, which was weird. Only Sonny and Reggie seemed to respond with increased effort.

Anyone in the stadium can shed some light on this or am I hearing things on TV?

Nothing new at all. The home crowd have always moaned and groaned at misplaced passes for all the years I've been going.

What is getting worse is those arriving late and leaving early. I appreciate that for some they are leaving to get trains etc.

 

[Trix]

It's all good. Getting offended by randoms on the internet was for my early 20s. Trix is lovely IRL I'm sure.

And I didn't mean anything by it. It's just how I post I'm fairly blunt IRL as as well tbh.

 

[spids]

Maybe Conte thinks CL would be a distraction next season and better off out of it. Wasn't that how he won the league with Chelsea?

Not as much of a distraction as the Europa League or the Europa Conference League are in comparison.

 

[Jet]

Nothing new at all. The home crowd have always moaned and groaned at misplaced passes for all the years I've been going.

What is getting worse is those arriving late and leaving early. I appreciate that for some they are leaving to get trains etc.

I'd agree, I've been watching since 1995 on TV and moaning and groaning has always been there.

What I feel is the difference is, is the speed at which the groans appear. It feels like general tolerance for things not going our way is at an all time low. Can't deny that its a combination of covid + weird times + our see-saw form I guess.

 

[Donki]

We need to be so sure with our signings and the money we have been spending. The rebuild has basically been going on since the last year of Poch. In that time we have signed so many players and spent over £300m. How many can we say have been a success? Hoeberg, Romero and Regi at a push? With some hope with the new guys and Sarr, It’s simply been quite depressing.

I hope between now and the summer Conte gets backing and is allowed to continue shaping the team.

 

[Donki]

I'd agree, I've been watching since 1995 on TV and moaning and groaning has always been there.

What I feel is the difference is, is the speed at which the groans appear. It feels like general tolerance for things not going our way is at an all time low. Can't deny that its a combination of covid + weird times + our see-saw form I guess.

We as a fan base and in football as a whole, people moan a lot louder and faster than back in the day. When we had players like Iverson, Nielsen and Freund we unbraced them and loved them, even made cultish hero’s of them.

Now if a player doesn’t rip it up within 5 games he’s done.

 

[DJS]

Happy to hear Conte is happy with how things are going, I am concerned we won’t be able to keep Kane if we don’t get top 4 though.

 

[Donki]

Happy to hear Conte is happy with how things are going, I am concerned we won’t be able to keep Kane if we don’t get top 4 though.

I think United are gonna come in for him in the summer.

 

[Trotter]

Name me a single successful club that hasn't made a whole load of duff signings. We're no different but many seem to expect us to hit the bullseye every time. It doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

You would expect us to hit the bullseye at least once in 5 years though. We basically have missed it, and even the whole dart board ever since Mitchell decided he could not work with Levy and upped and left really, but are still paying the most money of any team in Europe to watch our failures.
What has happened to our club since moving from WHL has been totally unacceptable.

 

[1882andallthat]

I honestly didn't realise there were so many on here that just don't actually understand the game, and the reality of how things really work in team sports. It's actually quite alarming that some posters can spend hours every day talking about all things football on here, and yet just expect things to happen like they do on Fifa or football manager. I'm not talking about genuine criticism that is valid, I'm talking about writing a young kid off after 30 minutes of football in a new country, and not understanding how an entire rebuild isn't going to happen over night.

At the very start of the transfer window I made a detailed post regarding how the club was moving forward, how there were plans in place that the manager, DOF and chairman were firmly behind. It was about being patient because the club had a two window strategy in order to be ready to compete properly next season. January was about getting all our ducks in a row so that come the Summer things could progress to where we have needed them to be for years. Deadwood players off the wage bill and in the shop window elsewhere. Come the Summer it won't be about having to move players out first, or freeing up wages and we can just get on with preparing for the coming season.

Those of you that keep shouting about top 4, and missed opportunities really need to understand that was never the main aim. Of course we'd like it, and will be doing all we can to get there this season, but not at the expense of being optimum for 22-23. "Why didn't we get a RWB in January" well because the one we really want isn't available until the Summer. Traore was seen as a possibility, but only at the price we were willing to go to, and the fact he could cover other roles as well. We could have bought another RWB to get by, but we'd rather the one we really want, rather than a makeshift purchase that affects long term progression. This is the same for other positions and why those we brought in were done as they were. Bentacur was the only full purchase this window as we were sure of what we were getting. Kulusevki is only a loan and only becomes permanent if he does well(this needs to be remembered).

Criticism at times is valid for sure and last night for instance I can completely understand why there was a fair amount. It's worth pointing out though that the players that really struggled last night(and boy were they poor) are the positions we are actively looking to upgrade in the Summer and have been planning to from the off. RWB, CB and CM were awful last night and this along with another FORWARD are the positions that were identified as where we really need to upgrade.

Now I know it's probably unrealistic to believe people on here will be able to but we really need to understand this is the beginning of the process and we need to temper expectations and let Conte get us to where we all want to be. I know some of you don't buy into ITK and think it's largely spin from the club, well I'd urge you not to take my word for it, and actually listen to what Conte is and has been saying for weeks........

"We are some way behind the best teams in this league, and it will take a lot of work to get us to that level". "THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW AND ESPECIALLY IN JANUARY WHERE THINGS ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT".


I know some of you will be saying(and rightfully so) heard this all before, and you are right you have. This is different though for so many reasons. We now have a top level coach who the club are backing, we really need to get behind it and at least give it the Summer window he's said from the start he needs. We will have up's and downs on the way, but we are on track for where Conte expects us to be come next August.

Absolutely and spot on, we are where we are and people need to be honest and unbiased about this. We're not where we want to be but we're making some progress, unfortunately people with unrealistic expectations think we should be able to run before we can walk.

We have to understand where we currently are properly to truly appreciate what we need to do to get to where we want to be. We have to understand that the likes of West Ham, Brighton, Leeds and Southampton have players in certain positions who are higher quality than we have, e.g in the centre of the midfield and on the flanks before we can even think about giving Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City a run for their money.

We can't just acquire players of top quality at the drop of the hat in a January window.

We have made a start but Conte can't perform miracles, there were some players on the pitch last night who were doing the best they could but should be squad players and back ups at best.

As for those getting on at Kulusevski already that's plain ridiculous I'm with you on that, he will take time, who knows if he will cut it in the PL but we can't write him off after 5 mins. On the basis of what we've seen already I think that we may have bought a gem in Bentancur and he looks as though he will adapt more quickly.

We may or may not achieve top 4, not because we have a depth of quality, because we're one of 4 who are equally inconsistent as each other and by that reason it makes it a lottery on who ends up there in the end, I.e by just about being a little less inconsistent than the other 3 rivals this season (Arsenal Man Utd and West Ham). I believe it will be that close and could come down to the final two or three games or even the last game or a spread of 1-4 points.

It is an important lottery (4th place) though because it will have a degree of influence over who we can acquire in the Summer alongside the fortunes of how Ndombele and Lo Celso fare on loan, because shifting them in the longer term depends on how well they perform in this shop window.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I honestly didn't realise there were so many on here that just don't actually understand the game, and the reality of how things really work in team sports. It's actually quite alarming that some posters can spend hours every day talking about all things football on here, and yet just expect things to happen like they do on Fifa or football manager. I'm not talking about genuine criticism that is valid, I'm talking about writing a young kid off after 30 minutes of football in a new country, and not understanding how an entire rebuild isn't going to happen over night.

At the very start of the transfer window I made a detailed post regarding how the club was moving forward, how there were plans in place that the manager, DOF and chairman were firmly behind. It was about being patient because the club had a two window strategy in order to be ready to compete properly next season. January was about getting all our ducks in a row so that come the Summer things could progress to where we have needed them to be for years. Deadwood players off the wage bill and in the shop window elsewhere. Come the Summer it won't be about having to move players out first, or freeing up wages and we can just get on with preparing for the coming season.

Those of you that keep shouting about top 4, and missed opportunities really need to understand that was never the main aim. Of course we'd like it, and will be doing all we can to get there this season, but not at the expense of being optimum for 22-23. "Why didn't we get a RWB in January" well because the one we really want isn't available until the Summer. Traore was seen as a possibility, but only at the price we were willing to go to, and the fact he could cover other roles as well. We could have bought another RWB to get by, but we'd rather the one we really want, rather than a makeshift purchase that affects long term progression. This is the same for other positions and why those we brought in were done as they were. Bentacur was the only full purchase this window as we were sure of what we were getting. Kulusevki is only a loan and only becomes permanent if he does well(this needs to be remembered).

Criticism at times is valid for sure and last night for instance I can completely understand why there was a fair amount. It's worth pointing out though that the players that really struggled last night(and boy were they poor) are the positions we are actively looking to upgrade in the Summer and have been planning to from the off. RWB, CB and CM were awful last night and this along with another FORWARD are the positions that were identified as where we really need to upgrade.

Now I know it's probably unrealistic to believe people on here will be able to but we really need to understand this is the beginning of the process and we need to temper expectations and let Conte get us to where we all want to be. I know some of you don't buy into ITK and think it's largely spin from the club, well I'd urge you not to take my word for it, and actually listen to what Conte is and has been saying for weeks........

"We are some way behind the best teams in this league, and it will take a lot of work to get us to that level". "THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW AND ESPECIALLY IN JANUARY WHERE THINGS ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT".


I know some of you will be saying(and rightfully so) heard this all before, and you are right you have. This is different though for so many reasons. We now have a top level coach who the club are backing, we really need to get behind it and at least give it the Summer window he's said from the start he needs. We will have up's and downs on the way, but we are on track for where Conte expects us to be come next August.

I was thinking of starting a thread exactly like this one, top man and completely bang on.

 

[chrisd2k]

The other thing that springs to mind is are we planning for long term or short term in the summer?

I'm all for Short-term success, I think we need it, but we aren't a financially doped club so signings need to have this in mind and I hope those that are making the decisions accept this reality.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

This constant criticism, the 'I know best (better) and desire for 'instant' success to me is a reflection of of a wider societal trend. Nearly everything we 'want' can be obtained instantly - 24/7 everything.

Couple that with an absolute craving for success (which is fair) and how close we were to grasping it under Poch really draws out anger, frustration and entitlement that can be seen with every defeat and in every transfer window.

Patience, whilst shitty, really is a virtue.

So so true, its a mix of this.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

The other thing that springs to mind is are we planning for long term or short term in the summer?

I'm all for Short-term success, I think we need it, but we aren't a financially doped club so signings need to have this in mind and I hope those that are making the decisions accept this reality.

It seems we are planning for both mate.

We are looking to buy players to fit Conte's system and vision (short-> Medium term) whilst also making sure the majority of these are young players hence taking care also of the (long-term).

Conte I'd imagine might like to add a few more experienced heads but on the whole we are targeting younger signings often around or under 25 (Romero 23, Gil 20, Emerson 23, Sarr 19, Kulu 21, Bentancur 23) all I believe under 25 but most of which are at a good level ready to go now.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Great post, do you think Conte will stay if we don't get atleast the Europa league? My fear is if we get 7th for example and Man Utd come in for him who have Champions league football Conte will be away. Hopefully i'm wrong but i have doubts a manager of Conte ability would want another season of no Champs league football.


On the rwb position is the player we are waiting for in the summer a real possibility? Or just a target.

Conte’s record in Europe is very poor. He seems to specialise in winning league titles so I don’t think it would bother him too much. The money is the advantage of CL so we can get the players we need in the summer.

 

[Trix]

The other thing that springs to mind is are we planning for long term or short term in the summer?

I'm all for Short-term success, I think we need it, but we aren't a financially doped club so signings need to have this in mind and I hope those that are making the decisions accept this reality.

From the names currently being banded around, I'd say it's a mix of experienced players and players in their early to mid 20's.

 

[Delboy75]

Our good players are so far ahead of the rest it’s literally like they are playing a different sport. Kane Son Romero ( despite odd error still obviously class) and Bentancur looks like he has that swag as well. Players I’ve seen enough of now to know they simply aren’t good enough Sanchez Dier Emerson Reguilon Hojbjerg Winks, this is if we want to be a serious elite team. Lucas does just enough on his day, Bergwijn I actually still have some hope for. Skipp obviously should be ok, Kulusevski to soon to judge. Dier hopefully can maintain his form. First Xi probably needs 5 starters.

 

[Dr Know]

There were 2 occasions last night that summed up how bad some fans are. First one was when Reggie was substituted and as he applauded fans in the South Stand while he walked off the pitch, there was one fan shouting abuse at him and saying he should have blocked the crosses for their goals.

The second was a guy behind me wanting Emerson to break both his legs so he never has to watch him play for Spurs again.

The sad thing is that you get these fans all round the ground and they tend to be the ones you hear loudest.

Same applies for the match day thread on here too.

…….sometimes they are also the fans that cum in their pants when those same players have a 10/10 game. It’s all about emotions mate and some people have less control than others.

I’m in no way condoning the breaking of legs and stuff like that BTW.

 

[Erm33]

Last night was swings and roundabouts with the Leicester game. We should have won that comfortably on our performance but stole it with 2 quick late goals. Yesterday we should have lost comfortably and threw the points away with two quick late goals. It is what it is right now with the squad we have. We're still on for 4th on PPG. If we get it or not will depend largely on whether our strongest 11 can stay fit and be on the pitch at the same time as we've seen how quickly we can weaken with just one or two injuries in almost every position.

 

[dontcallme]

Good post Trix. I found it extraordinary how many people were writing about the numerous positions we needed to upgrade on in January or we have “failed the manager.”

When it was pointed out that buying the quality needed was unavailable in January this was dismissed like somehow reality isn’t relevant.

The Poch era has shown us the importance of the need for a conveyor belt of players. Whether times are good or bad we need to constantly be active in the transfer market.

There is no quick fix. The only fix is correct player recruitment.