The GOAT

[yusrisafri]

Who would you rank as the top 5 GOAT, in order?

For me:-
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Zidane
4. Pele (never watched him play, so im basing on stories and youtubes)
5. Cristiano

No right or wrong, to each his own opinion.

 

[Spursmatty87]

I Went to the spurs v Barca cl game a few years ago. I’m so glad to I did to watch Messi live was something else. Hard a say if he’s the best but his and CR7 longevity is crazy.

 

[kursaal]

I was 9 during the 1970 World Cup finals, which I remember vividly. As an aside, England had an even stronger team than in 1966 but were undone by the heat and contentious off field issues.

Anyone who was lucky enough to have seen Pele will say he is the greatest of all time. I take nothing away from the two Argentine geniuses but Pele topped the pair of them.

Back in the early 70's you could buy great matches and previous tournaments on proctector tapes and we'd watch them at home. I'd watch the '58, '62 and '66 World Cup tournaments. Aged just 17, Pele scored the only goal of quarter final as Brazil beat Wales. The semi final he scored a hattrick as Brazil crushed high scoring and much fancied France. In the final he added two more as Brazil swept aside hosts Sweden 5-2.

In 1962 Brazil retained the World Cup with Pelle aged 21. Garrincha being the star of that tournament for Brazil, but Pele playing his part.

Most people know about the 1970 Brazil team and Pele. Arguably the finest international team ever. Pele being the star.

I've heard people say, Pele played alongside better international team mates than Maradona and Messi. But what they fail to take into consideration is thec 1966 World Cup finals in England. Brazil had another fine side. However, in the group games against Hungary, Bulgaria and Portugal, Pele was ruthlessly kicked to pieces in all three games. Hecwas targeted constantly with 'tackles' that today would have earned straight reds. There were no substitues in that tournament. Pele had to play on with little protection from referees. The last game against Portugal was particularly infamous for how they brutalised Pele.

My point being, had Pele received any kind of fair protection from the officials, in all probability Brazil would have pipped England as winners. A great Brazil side but due Pele's injuries, they didn't win what ought to have been ultimately 4 World Cup truimphs on the spin.

Of course there is an arguement for either Maradona and Messi to have been better than Pele. But not for as long ond succesfully at international level.

I count myself lucky to have seen all three (not live). Just as I'm fortunate to have seen Johann Cruyff and Georgie Best.

 

[ohtottenham!]

I was 9 during the 1970 World Cup finals, which I remember vividly. As an aside, England had an even stronger team than in 1966 but were undone by the heat and contentious off field issues.

Anyone who was lucky enough to have seen Pele will say he is the greatest of all time. I take nothing away from the two Argentine geniuses but Pele topped the pair of them.

Back in the early 70's you could buy great matches and previous tournaments on proctector tapes and we'd watch them at home. I'd watch the '58, '62 and '66 World Cup tournaments. Aged just 17, Pele scored the only goal of quarter final as Brazil beat Wales. The semi final he scored a hattrick as Brazil crushed high scoring and much fancied France. In the final he added two more as Brazil swept aside hosts Sweden 5-2.

In 1962 Brazil retained the World Cup with Pelle aged 21. Garrincha being the star of that tournament for Brazil, but Pele playing his part.

Most people know about the 1970 Brazil team and Pele. Arguably the finest international team ever. Pele being the star.

I've heard people say, Pele played alongside better international team mates than Maradona and Messi. But what they fail to take into consideration is thec 1966 World Cup finals in England. Brazil had another fine side. However, in the group games against Hungary, Bulgaria and Portugal, Pele was ruthlessly kicked to pieces in all three games. Hecwas targeted constantly with 'tackles' that today would have earned straight reds. There were no substitues in that tournament. Pele had to play on with little protection from referees. The last game against Portugal was particularly infamous for how they brutalised Pele.

My point being, had Pele received any kind of fair protection from the officials, in all probability Brazil would have pipped England as winners. A great Brazil side but due Pele's injuries, they didn't win what ought to have been ultimately 4 World Cup truimphs on the spin.

Of course there is an arguement for either Maradona and Messi to have been better than Pele. But not for as long ond succesfully at international level.

I count myself lucky to have seen all three (not live). Just as I'm fortunate to have seen Johann Cruyff and Georgie Best.

A little bit older than you mate but of the same mini-generation. Maradona for me above both Pele and Messi, but it will always be about subjective opinions and the criteria we're using to judge. Nice to see you give a mention to George Best; imo, he's still the most naturally gifted player to ever play in the English league.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Robert Prosinecki.

 

[coysjod]

Tough one, think I'll go with:

1. Jimi Hendrix
2. Bob Dylan
3. David Bowie
4. James Brown
5. Freddie Mercury

 

[WhiteStripe]

Of the “modern” two. I’ve seen Ronaldo live multiple times….I’ve seen messi live once, at Wembley, and for me there is simply no comparison. Messi is by far the better of the two. I have never felt the way I did leaving Wembley that day about a players performance. Simply mesmerising.

 

[dimiSpur]

Messi is now number one. Of all time. Only Cristiano has produced similar numbers over such a long period of time. But last night, winning the World Cup, finally cements him firmly, I'd say, as the GOAT.

Maradona was a legend, obviously, a mythical character to go with his supreme talent, but I would say that doing what Messi has done is harder. The level of football has risen in the last 3 decades, defenders nowadays are athletic, intelligent footballers. Back in the Diego's day, whilst there were of course some great defenders around, they were perhaps easier to run by?

I've just never seen anyone do what Leo does. Yes CR7 is amazing, but he's a strong, athletic goalscorer. Ruthless. But he's like a player we've seen before, on super steroids. Messi on the other hand is just different. His game is unlike anyone else's.

I must admit getting emotional seeing him with the trophy. Fully deserved to cap off what's been such an amazing career. Obviously he's not retiring just yet, but this is the moment we'll see replayed in 50 years.

 

[allatsea]

I was 9 during the 1970 World Cup finals, which I remember vividly. As an aside, England had an even stronger team than in 1966 but were undone by the heat and contentious off field issues.

Anyone who was lucky enough to have seen Pele will say he is the greatest of all time. I take nothing away from the two Argentine geniuses but Pele topped the pair of them.

Back in the early 70's you could buy great matches and previous tournaments on proctector tapes and we'd watch them at home. I'd watch the '58, '62 and '66 World Cup tournaments. Aged just 17, Pele scored the only goal of quarter final as Brazil beat Wales. The semi final he scored a hattrick as Brazil crushed high scoring and much fancied France. In the final he added two more as Brazil swept aside hosts Sweden 5-2.

In 1962 Brazil retained the World Cup with Pelle aged 21. Garrincha being the star of that tournament for Brazil, but Pele playing his part.

Most people know about the 1970 Brazil team and Pele. Arguably the finest international team ever. Pele being the star.

I've heard people say, Pele played alongside better international team mates than Maradona and Messi. But what they fail to take into consideration is thec 1966 World Cup finals in England. Brazil had another fine side. However, in the group games against Hungary, Bulgaria and Portugal, Pele was ruthlessly kicked to pieces in all three games. Hecwas targeted constantly with 'tackles' that today would have earned straight reds. There were no substitues in that tournament. Pele had to play on with little protection from referees. The last game against Portugal was particularly infamous for how they brutalised Pele.

My point being, had Pele received any kind of fair protection from the officials, in all probability Brazil would have pipped England as winners. A great Brazil side but due Pele's injuries, they didn't win what ought to have been ultimately 4 World Cup truimphs on the spin.

Of course there is an arguement for either Maradona and Messi to have been better than Pele. But not for as long ond succesfully at international level.

I count myself lucky to have seen all three (not live). Just as I'm fortunate to have seen Johann Cruyff and Georgie Best.

Great post 100% correct. Far too many are pushing Messi etc ahead of Pele when they never saw him play. Fabulous talent who has you say was kicked out of the 1966 World Cup.

 

[hughy]

I Went to the spurs v Barca cl game a few years ago. I’m so glad to I did to watch Messi live was something else. Hard a say if he’s the best but his and CR7 longevity is crazy.

I paid the money for a ticket about 5 rows back close to the half-way line just to see him up close. So glad I did, will definitely be telling my kids about the day Messi ripped Spurs to pieces.

I wont do an all-time top 5, because I believe it's difficult to rank players you haven't personally seen play, but in my lifetime:

1. Messi
2. C. Ronaldo
3. ZIdane
4. Ronaldo
5. Ronaldinho

I don't think there are many who run those 5 close, so it's pretty easy for me.

 

[Tucker]

What, no Andy Sinton?

Shite.

 

[XIIIMPC]

Messi's performance vs. us at Wembley is one of the best individual performances I can remember against Spurs.

Anyway, in my mind Messi has closed the discussion with Ronaldo (imo that was closed several years ago, but surely Ronaldo is totally out of the question now since Messi won a World Cup while Ronaldo was torpedoing two clubs in a row and becoming such a toxic influence everywhere he went that he was cast aside by his international side and fired from his day job mid-tournament). I suppose because they're of different eras Messi vs. Pele and Maradona is more subjective, but imo he beats both.

I've always thought the WC was a bit overrated in discussions of this sort. That's not to say it doesn't matter at all, but it's also not a settler. I thought Messi was the GOAT before last night. For one thing, there's so much random chance involved in straight knockout games between top-level footballers separated by razor-thin margins. They aren't even two-legged. If last night hadn't happened, Messi's status as "GOAT" would functionally hinge on Higuain's incompetence and one good touch by Gotze in the 2014 final, and that seems unfair to me. The Champions League last 16, and particularly last 8, is both a higher quality of football (teams more rigidly coached because managers have longer with them, players typically higher in value on average) and less at the mercy of random chance (because of two-legged games). Maradona and Pele also both played at a time where World Cups were one of few times many people saw them, which elevated their importance, while we have seen Messi perform every week because our viewing habits have changed.

So for me it's Messi, but I'm too young to have experienced Pele or Maradona during the peak of their careers.

Also probably worth taking into account the totality of Maradona's career, or even just his career in World Cups - which includes 1994. Maradona may have dragged Argentina to one in 86 but he tanked them in 94 - Messi has never done anything close to that.

 

[GMI]

Who would you rank as the top 5 GOAT, in order?

For me:-
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Zidane
4. Pele (never watched him play, so im basing on stories and youtubes)
5. Cristiano

No right or wrong, to each his own opinion.

I have you about right to be honest. Out of those Zidane is my personal favourite. Loved watching him play.

However, across all things, there is only one GOAT. The original - Muhammad Ali.

 

[Stavrogin]

I think comparisons between Messi and maradona are like those between LeBron James and Michael Jordan.

It's difficult both to compare and distinguish them but I look at it like this:

If you put them head to head in similar teams, who comes out on top?

My feeling is that Maradona would be more likely to win. Somehow he'd find a way.

 

[14/04/91]

I've always had Maradona at number 1 mainly because of the phenomenal influence he had individually. Argentina '86 weren't a particularly great side but he inspired them to winning the WC.
Similarly he won Serie A twice in four years with Napoli.
In 86/87 they actually won the double which included their first league title ever.
In 89/90 they were up against both Milan clubs and players such as Gullit, Rijkaard, Van Basten, Klinsmann & Matthaus.

1. Diego
2. Messi
3. Pele
4. Ronaldo (Portugal)
5. Ronaldo (Brazil)

 

[carmeldevil]

What? No forum legend Lewis Holtby?

 

[Trix]

Messi is now number one. Of all time. Only Cristiano has produced similar numbers over such a long period of time. But last night, winning the World Cup, finally cements him firmly, I'd say, as the GOAT.

Maradona was a legend, obviously, a mythical character to go with his supreme talent, but I would say that doing what Messi has done is harder. The level of football has risen in the last 3 decades, defenders nowadays are athletic, intelligent footballers. Back in the Diego's day, whilst there were of course some great defenders around, they were perhaps easier to run by?

I've just never seen anyone do what Leo does. Yes CR7 is amazing, but he's a strong, athletic goalscorer. Ruthless. But he's like a player we've seen before, on super steroids. Messi on the other hand is just different. His game is unlike anyone else's.

I must admit getting emotional seeing him with the trophy. Fully deserved to cap off what's been such an amazing career. Obviously he's not retiring just yet, but this is the moment we'll see replayed in 50 years.

Amazing how many people post stuff like this and just don't understand why this is bollocks. How old are you out of interest?

 

[Aleks]

Amazing how many people post stuff like this and just don't understand why this is bollocks. How old are you out of interest?

I mean, all we hear about football from back then is footballers smoking at half time, having poor diets, not spending time in the gym and also players having quite wild party lifestyles. The fact that ketchup being banned is some revolutionary thing in player diets kind of proves this. I can totally understand why he would think this.

Though the type of challenges players faced back then were way worse.

 

[soflapaul]

I was 9 during the 1970 World Cup finals, which I remember vividly. As an aside, England had an even stronger team than in 1966 but were undone by the heat and contentious off field issues.

Anyone who was lucky enough to have seen Pele will say he is the greatest of all time. I take nothing away from the two Argentine geniuses but Pele topped the pair of them.

Back in the early 70's you could buy great matches and previous tournaments on proctector tapes and we'd watch them at home. I'd watch the '58, '62 and '66 World Cup tournaments. Aged just 17, Pele scored the only goal of quarter final as Brazil beat Wales. The semi final he scored a hattrick as Brazil crushed high scoring and much fancied France. In the final he added two more as Brazil swept aside hosts Sweden 5-2.

In 1962 Brazil retained the World Cup with Pelle aged 21. Garrincha being the star of that tournament for Brazil, but Pele playing his part.

Most people know about the 1970 Brazil team and Pele. Arguably the finest international team ever. Pele being the star.

I've heard people say, Pele played alongside better international team mates than Maradona and Messi. But what they fail to take into consideration is thec 1966 World Cup finals in England. Brazil had another fine side. However, in the group games against Hungary, Bulgaria and Portugal, Pele was ruthlessly kicked to pieces in all three games. Hecwas targeted constantly with 'tackles' that today would have earned straight reds. There were no substitues in that tournament. Pele had to play on with little protection from referees. The last game against Portugal was particularly infamous for how they brutalised Pele.

My point being, had Pele received any kind of fair protection from the officials, in all probability Brazil would have pipped England as winners. A great Brazil side but due Pele's injuries, they didn't win what ought to have been ultimately 4 World Cup truimphs on the spin.

Of course there is an arguement for either Maradona and Messi to have been better than Pele. But not for as long ond succesfully at international level.

I count myself lucky to have seen all three (not live). Just as I'm fortunate to have seen Johann Cruyff and Georgie Best.

I'm with you on Pele. It's hard to discount Maradona or Messi but the one thing you pointed out was how little protection he had. A friend's father played for the Peruvian national team in the 50s and 60s and shared that he was tasked with shutting Pele down. He said that his job was to specifically go out and kick him every chance he got and despite that, he missed time and time again. His entire job for 90 minutes was to shadow him and then kick him. Do whatever it takes. Let that sink in to understand what Pele was up against. No doubt Maradona had to deal with it but that was still to a lesser extent and the game was weeding out that style (or lack thereof) of football. But Maradona gets kudos as he was one of those rare players that stepping on the pitch made everyone on his team better. Regardless of who is the greatest, it's been incredible watching all three play as they transform football from a sport to an art.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Bongani Khumalo has though.

Make of it what you will