The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - Groundhog Day you say? Groundhog Day you say?

Adam456

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Pochettino (love that man) gave us two of the best nights I've ever had as a Spurs fan just last year (City, Ajax), we also smashed Real Madrid at home, have outplayed every team in the league (albeit sadly not always in the same season) and has taken our club from 4th hopefuls to CL regulars, was it time for him to go? Almost definitely, his system was based on belief and as soon as that belief started to disappear, so did the foundations of his tenure,
Appreciate that this is only part of your post and not disagreeing with you on Mourinho's tactical credentials but the above is simply not true

Poch massively overachieved with his squad by coaching them to play as a unit and by massively improving players' individual decision making and consistency. Belief improved, based on performance and results. Arguably it was actually a lack of belief (in admittedly a young squad) that stopped us converting that into trophies. That he was ultimately allowed to be undermined by some of the same players that we just shipped out will go down as one of the stupidest events in the club's history
 

Spurs' Pipe Dreams

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Appreciate that this is only part of your post and not disagreeing with you on Mourinho's tactical credentials but the above is simply not true

Poch massively overachieved with his squad by coaching them to play as a unit and by massively improving players' individual decision making and consistency. Belief improved, based on performance and results. Arguably it was actually a lack of belief (in admittedly a young squad) that stopped us converting that into trophies. That he was ultimately allowed to be undermined by some of the same players that we just shipped out will go down as one of the stupidest events in the club's history
As soon as players stopped believing in the project the writing was on the wall, some games we needed to be more tactical and adapt to the opposition and Poch came up short on those occasions, he's a young coach himself and will learn and improve but he was never a tactical genius and sometimes (not always) that was shown.
 

McFlash

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Oh do me a favour. Poch didn’t have his own thoughts or reasons? Granted the guy had his limitations in the end (ie. we won jack shit), but we progressed. Let’s see how we get on in the future couple of years before fingers get pointed.
Yeah we progressed, I don't think that anyone would argue otherwise but the youth stagnated terribly.
I'm sure Poch had his reasons, which is why I said that I'd like to know his thinking, to find out what his plan was with the academy.
Not really sure what your point is though?
 

dagraham

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JM’s view on youth ‘Go out a boy, come back a man’. In other words, ‘go and prove yourself to me’. I believe this is the best motivation one can get. Elite youth will train with first team, and prove first being accepted by the seniors. Then take your opportunity when you get it (Tanganga).
That was pretty much Redknapp’s thinking too if I’m not mistaken? And I agree with it. Certainly didn’t do Kane any harm.
 

eddiev14

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I think we’re going to be a lot more decisive on player transfers with Mourinho. He’ll know exactly who he wants and he won’t play a straight bat to the press like Poch did, every single time.

It sounds like Poch was quite indecisive on players and I’d put that down to inexperience and maybe a fragile confidence in his own ability to coach different types of players. It seemed Poch had a ridiculous checklist for players but the list was often more about his philosophy than the player themselves. It’s been said many times that he pushed for Janssen because he liked his character, and there are others like Sissoko that fit that mould.

Mourinho was great when he had money but it’s often forgotten that he also got a few players out of nowhere (or as he put it “grabbed a few kids from Brazil”) at Porto, and turned that team from nobodies into European Champions.

We’ve just not seen that Mourinho for ages because he’s always had unlimited cash and had to battle ludicrous politics at United.

He’ll be decisive this summer and I’m liking the ITK that he’s identified and spoken to the striker he wants already.
 

Hoopspur

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Yeah we progressed, I don't think that anyone would argue otherwise but the youth stagnated terribly.
I'm sure Poch had his reasons, which is why I said that I'd like to know his thinking, to find out what his plan was with the academy.
Not really sure what your point is though?
In my rushed (not needed) reply I didn’t take on board your point. Probably a usual thing that goes on around here!

Obviously these two managers have different opinions - one that prefers the younger players to play with the established first teamers as opposed to the other who prefers the experience with lower ‘quality’ teams. I guess we’ll never really know which route is more productive - class will show in the end hopefully?

I was trying to be a bit protective of Poch - only because I like him. But having said that I realise the guy is gone and recognise that I have to support the current manager - which I have to admit is difficult for me (at the moment).

Which route is best?
 
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Hoopspur

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Yeah we progressed, I don't think that anyone would argue otherwise but the youth stagnated terribly.
I'm sure Poch had his reasons, which is why I said that I'd like to know his thinking, to find out what his plan was with the academy.
Not really sure what your point is though?
As an addendum, I’m actually pretty disappointed that a club like Spurs only seemingly has Parrott as a potential contender. Pretty poor for a youth policy. And we actually stole(?) him from elsewhere if I remember correctly?

I want, or expect, a conveyor belt of brilliant talent!
 

daveduvet

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Best January window for years given the outs and ins ... couple that with last summer and this is an ok time to be a Spurs man. Actually looking forward to tomorrow’s game for once in awhile.
 

Japhet

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I'm disappointed with no striker signing but not as much as many. We now have plenty of scoring potential from midfield to forwards which we haven't had previously. We still have Son, Dele and Moura and have added Bergwijn. We also have Ndombele and Lo Celso who I think can bag a few and Lamela in the mix so if Jose can be a bit creative with how we approach creating scoring opportunities I don't see it as all doom and gloom.
 

McFlash

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In my rushed (not needed) reply I didn’t take on board your point. Probably a usual thing that goes on around here!

Obviously these two managers have different opinions - one that prefers the younger players to play with the established first teamers as opposed to the other who prefers the experience with lower ‘quality’ teams. I guess we’ll never really know which route is more productive - class will show in the end hopefully?

I was trying to be a bit protective of Poch - only because I like him. But having said that I realise the guy is gone and recognise that I have to support the current manager - which I have to admit is difficult for me (at the moment).

Which rote is best?
I understand your view, let's face it, there are plenty of over the top posts on here.

The youth watchers in the youth thread seem to be mainly of the opinion that we should have been loaning out the kids. There are some good posters in there and I trust their opinions because most of them have been following the academy closely, for a long time.

Poch was brilliant and I'll always be a fan of his but he does seem to have been blinkered when it comes to the academy.
As you say, I'm sure he had his reasons and that's what intrigues me. I'd love to know what he was planning and why he did what he did.
 

Adam456

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As soon as players stopped believing in the project the writing was on the wall
That's true and the same as any manager when they're about to be sacked but you were saying that's what his success was built on. It simply wasn't. It was that he was an incredible coach who, while sometimes guilty of tactical inflexibility, had an 'A' game that blew most teams out of the water
 

McFlash

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As an addendum, I’m actually pretty disappointed that a club like Spurs only seemingly has Parrott as a potential contender. Pretty poor for a youth policy. And we actually stole(?) him from elsewhere if I remember correctly?

I want, or expect, a conveyor belt of brilliant talent!
I highly recommend the youth thread in Spurs chat. Some of the guys in there really know their stuff and are great at keeping mere mortals like me, up to date with all of the age groups.
It's one of my favourite places on SC.
 

dagraham

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Poch was brilliant and I'll always be a fan of his but he does seem to have been blinkered when it comes to the academy.
As you say, I'm sure he had his reasons and that's what intrigues me. I'd love to know what he was planning and why he did what he did.
This is purely a guess, but I assume it’s because he was so entrenched into his philosophy and the intensity of his training that he didn’t think it would be beneficial for the academy prospects to be at another club.

Whereas Jose ( and Redknapp ) are more pragmatic ( maybe more old school if you like) and think experience of playing games and being battled hardened are more important.
 

ButchCassidy

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As an addendum, I’m actually pretty disappointed that a club like Spurs only seemingly has Parrott as a potential contender. Pretty poor for a youth policy. And we actually stole(?) him from elsewhere if I remember correctly?

I want, or expect, a conveyor belt of brilliant talent!
Tanganga?
 

McFlash

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This is purely a guess, but I assume it’s because he was so entrenched into his philosophy and the intensity of his training that he didn’t think it would be beneficial for the academy prospects to be at another club.

Whereas Jose ( and Redknapp ) are more pragmatic ( maybe more old school if you like) and think experience of playing games and being battled hardened are more important.
You're probably right there, it's as simple as that. I agree with the philosophy thing but they can also learn from new, different experiences. And learn change and adaptability.
Maybe that's where Poch fell down
 

sausage

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This is purely a guess, but I assume it’s because he was so entrenched into his philosophy and the intensity of his training that he didn’t think it would be beneficial for the academy prospects to be at another club.

Whereas Jose ( and Redknapp ) are more pragmatic ( maybe more old school if you like) and think experience of playing games and being battled hardened are more important.
I thinks it's maybe a cultural thing in Spain, like the whole 'La Masia' thing where every age group plays in the same style of play blah blah so they can graduate into the first team and they know how to play the Barca way... except instead, they sell them to shit teams with buy backs and very rarely these days use their academy.
 

Bulletspur

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As an addendum, I’m actually pretty disappointed that a club like Spurs only seemingly has Parrott as a potential contender. Pretty poor for a youth policy. And we actually stole(?) him from elsewhere if I remember correctly?

I want, or expect, a conveyor belt of brilliant talent!
If I recall correctly, Winks is the only youth player that has been promoted into the seniors by Poch (I do not include the occasional bench warmers like Onomah, Edwards and co). Players like Bentaleb, Townsend and Mason he inherited from Sherwood's / AVB's reign, where they were then moved on. My point is the myth Poch promoted and encouraged the youth was exactly that, a myth.
 

Spurs' Pipe Dreams

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That's true and the same as any manager when they're about to be sacked but you were saying that's what his success was built on. It simply wasn't. It was that he was an incredible coach who, while sometimes guilty of tactical inflexibility, had an 'A' game that blew most teams out of the water
The man himself said as much on multiple occasions in many press conferences, he doesn't care too much about positions and who plays where it is about the team and playing for each other which is fine up to a point and that point came after Christmas last year, the players stopped believing and working in the system, the press disappeared and our performances suffered. Eriksen, Rose, Toby and Jan no longer believed and although we had a CL run, our game disappeared.

No manager is perfect, Fergie cycled through a lot of teams and left Moyes with an ageing squad and an impossible job. The difference is Fergie had the resources to refresh his squad (mostly with the best of Spurs players) and Poch was never allowed, you can blame Levy for that or the four mentioned above who stopped playing for him and didn't leave/sign a new contract when asked, it really doesn't matter. Poch took us on two title runs and 2 finals, with CL for 4 seasons, that's successful in my book but he was tactically weak sometimes, of course, his success was built on building a good working environment and motivating good footballers, that's what every good coach does, that's the foundation of everything a good team has.
 
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