Style of play

[Japhet]

Firstly, I expect Eriksen to be off, either now, January or at the end of the season. We'll find it extremely difficult to replace him with a similar player and I think the acquisitions of Ndombele and LoCelso are trying to address this by adopting a different style of play. This was alluded to by some ITK during the transfer window. I think we might adopt a 433 formation or possibly a CM2 in certain games. Ndombele and LoCelso are both much more progressive midfielders than we're used to so I think a CM3 (probably with Winks or Dier in the middle) will give them freedom to get forward.

Our creativity would then be coming from deeper, but also from 2 sources instead of everything being funnelled through the traditional 10 position. This will encourage more width with both TN and GLC also being very adept at finding pinpoint passes between the lines which Son, Dele, Moura and Kane will lap up. I'm also hopeful this might lead to the binning of the narrow diamond formation which just seems to be an experiment that has never really worked.

 

[Bobbins]

I miss a bit of our old cavalier style. We never seem to take risks anymore - not with passing, positioning or pressing.

Would love us to learn to press like City or Liverpool and commit the tactical fouls they do. Instead there's far, far too much sideways nonsense, and almost zero vertical passing or movement. We give inferior teams all the time in the world to drop deep and present us with walls of defence, and we let superior (or equal, like Arsenal) teams the freedom to press the crap out of us by ourselves dropping incredibly deep and passing the ball around in our own 18 yard box.

We've been at our best in recent seasons when we've been a bit under the cosh in terms of possession but have battled our way out of it. The games against Barca away, and the second half at home, as well as Madrid and Dortmund at home and Juventus away, have seen us battle in the centre and break with pace and intent.

Poch does have this weakness of refusing to adapt his tactics or style to the opponent. Some managers are insistent that they must impose their game on others, regardless of the quality of the opposition. I think that's incredibly arrogant, and the best managers and teams adapt to play the game they need to play on the day, and prepare accordingly. I also think one of the other consequences of refusing to alter your style of play is that players become comfortable and lazy and are not challenged, which is what I think has happened to the vast majority of our team over the last two years.

 

[Lighty64]

Our mentality has definitely changed since Poch took over, that's for sure. We're much better at grinding out results (as displayed by the CL run and our games already this season).

However, in 2016/17, in the final season at the Lane, we destroyed teams. We had a clear system and team, pressed high and with intensity, and it led to us dominating the smaller teams and at least taking the game to the top 6 in those games. The unbeaten home record and defensive stats show this fairly clearly.

Since then, we seem to have somewhat lost that identity. We're not that young anymore, I can't remember the last time we really suffocated a team through our pressing and our defensive record has consistently been getting worse. NDombele and Lo Celso should freshen it up a bit, but with Eriksen/Toby leaving (either now or next season), I'm in agreement with a lot of posters here and think it's slightly worrying that we've lost our way a bit.

Here's hoping we get through this transfer window, Poch settles on a new, clear identity for his project and we start blowing teams away at the new stadium again.

I’ve already pointed this reason out a few times.

1, with CL it means less times of rotation, so it means we have to conserve energy some how, unless you have had the resources of City over the last 10 years to build even youth teams that could step up in bigger matches.

2, with the opo now sitting 10 men behind the ball, the full press is a lot harder to implement as it would leave 21 players playing in the same half all game except counters.

And a point you have picked out, plus what others have mentioned, pace with Walker and Rose, and the players being 3 years older that the majority are now internationals and playing 5-6 extra games and literally playing 2 seasons of back to back matches with very little break. Even the international matches last season were no friendly matches, we played 59 matches which was 5-6 less matches compared to Liverpool, we had 3-4 more also involved in international matches that weren’t friendlies and suffer a lot more injuries.

 

[Ronwol196061]

I miss a bit of our old cavalier style. We never seem to take risks anymore - not with passing, positioning or pressing.

Would love us to learn to press like City or Liverpool and commit the tactical fouls they do. Instead there's far, far too much sideways nonsense, and almost zero vertical passing or movement. We give inferior teams all the time in the world to drop deep and present us with walls of defence, and we let superior (or equal, like Arsenal) teams the freedom to press the crap out of us by ourselves dropping incredibly deep and passing the ball around in our own 18 yard box.

We've been at our best in recent seasons when we've been a bit under the cosh in terms of possession but have battled our way out of it. The games against Barca away, and the second half at home, as well as Madrid and Dortmund at home and Juventus away, have seen us battle in the centre and break with pace and intent.

Poch does have this weakness of refusing to adapt his tactics or style to the opponent. Some managers are insistent that they must impose their game on others, regardless of the quality of the opposition. I think that's incredibly arrogant, and the best managers and teams adapt to play the game they need to play on the day, and prepare accordingly. I also think one of the other consequences of refusing to alter your style of play is that players become comfortable and lazy and are not challenged, which is what I think has happened to the vast majority of our team over the last two years.

I was wondering if Poch can really change his style. We bought Ndombele and his position is really as Dembeles was. Remember Dembele never really ventured up,hardly ever. He would control the ball and usually lay it off. Wjat will Poch do with NDombele?
NDombele is much more adventurous it looks by nature than Dembele but will Poch let him go forward (the signs maybe there now that he will but will he pull him back?
It would be great if we could play on the front foot and play some open dynamic football.I hope that's where we are headed as the closed style (control and slow build ups) only got us so far.

 

[dudu]

Two points. That 16/17 season when we played the back three, and played this scintillating football everyone remembers...

We started that season with a Dier Wanyama double pivot and were awful. It took us until December time to start performing anywhere like the way people people remember. It wasn't a whole season of us blowing people away.

2nd point, how many of you actually watch Liverpool games? So many of you hold them up as a great footballing team, but they're just a slicker version of Leicester for me. Rely heavily on springing Salah and Mane early with long balls from VVD/Henderson. They shouldn't be talked about in the same breath as City for me.

Absolutely agree with this. City are a completely different beast in terms of footballing style to Liverpool, one that is very difficult to counter.

As for us. We will get slicker, stronger and more cohesive as the season goes on. Lamela appears fit and raring to go, Son will be much fresher than last year and we have two new proper footballing CMs to integrate who I feel will help dictate and evolve our style.

Im not sure how it's all going to piece together on a game to game basis but Poch has always tried to be versatile in his formations and I can't see that changing any time soon.

 

[gavspur]

Both Liverpool and City really stretch defences by keeping players out wide.. We could be doing the same with Moura right and Son left. Brings problems for fitting Dele in, although it could easily be Lamela right and Dele left, although that’s a lot less pace.

 

[dudu]

Both Liverpool and City really stretch defences by keeping players out wide.. We could be doing the same with Moura right and Son left. Brings problems for fitting Dele in, although it could easily be Lamela right and Dele left, although that’s a lot less pace.

Liverpool aren't doing it with the forwards tho, they are doing it with the fullbacks. I'm sure during the Norwich or Chelsea game I even heard the commentator say something about Klopp saying when Salah is hugging the wing too much, he is having too quiet a game.

 

[gavspur]

Liverpool aren't doing it with the forwards tho, they are doing it with the fullbacks. I'm sure during the Norwich or Chelsea game I even heard the commentator say something about Klopp saying when Salah is hugging the wing too much, he is having too quiet a game.

Which is pretty much what we did with Walker and Rose, Dele and Eriksen behind Harry in 16/17 season.

How we play now though, does none of those things. We have NO width.. Either the forwards tuck in, and the fullbacks bomb forward, or the wingers stay wide and the full backs sit deeper. What we do now is the forwards tuck in, making it very central and congested, and the full backs sit back.

Is Dier key to this? If we allow fullbacks to bomb forward, he needs to drop in CD, which he hasn’t done, even when fit, for two seasons. It seems like we’ve got a mix of formations, but have taken the wrong parts to mix.

 

[dudu]

Which is pretty much what we did with Walker and Rose, Dele and Eriksen behind Harry in 16/17 season.

How we play now though, does none of those things. We have NO width.. Either the forwards tuck in, and the fullbacks bomb forward, or the wingers stay wide and the full backs sit deeper. What we do now is the forwards tuck in, making it very central and congested, and the full backs sit back.

Is Dier key to this? If we allow fullbacks to bomb forward, he needs to drop in CD, which he hasn’t done, even when fit, for two seasons. It seems like we’ve got a mix of formations, but have taken the wrong parts to mix.

Let's give it some time to see how it progresses.....

I think the idea will be to have the fullbacks stay wide and relatively high as they did against Villa for the most part.

Clearly City were a whole step above us on Sunday but the next few games should start giving us a good indication of how we are going to be creating some width.

 

[Japhet]

Let's give it some time to see how it progresses.....

I think the idea will be to have the fullbacks stay wide and relatively high as they did against Villa for the most part.

Clearly City were a whole step above us on Sunday but the next few games should start giving us a good indication of how we are going to be creating some width.

I think the City game was a one off. We won't be under that much pressure any time soon and Poch decided to keep the ball away from the middle of the pitch. Everything was down the flanks which limited our creativity but meant that when we inevitably lost possession, it was in less dangerous areas. Tactically, that was quite cute since Ndombele and Winks are still finding their feet as a duo. I'm not sure why he didn't mirror their formation which would have steadied the ship, and I'll never understand the logic in inviting the press 20 yards or less from our own goal (especially since it wasn't opening up any creative opportunities for us). I'm expecting to see our true style start to emerge in the next few games now though.

 

[Bishop]

Liverpool aren't doing it with the forwards tho, they are doing it with the fullbacks. I'm sure during the Norwich or Chelsea game I even heard the commentator say something about Klopp saying when Salah is hugging the wing too much, he is having too quiet a game.

Liverpool's fullbacks are both very athletic and far, far better crossers of the ball than Rose and so far what we have seen from KWP and Aurier. They keep the opposition fullbacks wide because they absolutely know that either FB will hurt you with a cross out wide. That keeps the the defence stretched.

Liverpool are also very good at switching the play out to whichever FB is free. Despite what some in this thread have been claiming Liverpool's cm was better than ours significantly so in terms of ball playing ability. So they have both the vision to see the pass and the technique to pull it off, something every Poch CM so far has been lacking.

I'm hoping with the addition of Ndombele and hopefully Lo Celso into CM and the relaxation of Sissoko to the bench that we are going to start seeing a progressive use of the ball in CM. Ndombele so has shown he can spot runs and has the technique to play the pass, Lo Celso I'm less sure of but we will see. If we do get a faster pattern of distribution both short and long then we can start spreading defences and more gaps will become apparent and the runs of Son, Kane and Moura more fruitful.

 

[hellava_tough]

Liverpool's fullbacks are both very athletic and far, far better crossers of the ball than Rose and so far what we have seen from KWP and Aurier. They keep the opposition fullbacks wide because they absolutely know that either FB will hurt you with a cross out wide. That keeps the the defence stretched.

Liverpool are also very good at switching the play out to whichever FB is free. Despite what some in this thread have been claiming Liverpool's cm was better than ours significantly so in terms of ball playing ability. So they have both the vision to see the pass and the technique to pull it off, something every Poch CM so far has been lacking.

I'm hoping with the addition of Ndombele and hopefully Lo Celso into CM and the relaxation of Sissoko to the bench that we are going to start seeing a progressive use of the ball in CM. Ndombele so has shown he can spot runs and has the technique to play the pass, Lo Celso I'm less sure of but we will see. If we do get a faster pattern of distribution both short and long then we can start spreading defences and more gaps will become apparent and the runs of Son, Kane and Moura more fruitful.

Hopefully!

We could also do with a better ball-playing, press resistent, CDM.

 

[dudu]

I think the City game was a one off. We won't be under that much pressure any time soon and Poch decided to keep the ball away from the middle of the pitch. Everything was down the flanks which limited our creativity but meant that when we inevitably lost possession, it was in less dangerous areas. Tactically, that was quite cute since Ndombele and Winks are still finding their feet as a duo. I'm not sure why he didn't mirror their formation which would have steadied the ship, and I'll never understand the logic in inviting the press 20 yards or less from our own goal (especially since it wasn't opening up any creative opportunities for us). I'm expecting to see our true style start to emerge in the next few games now though.

Completely agree mate. Obviously we want to be using Man City as a benchmark for where we would like to be at in terms of competing against the best but we are a team in transition. Not sure that game was a fair representation of the levels to which we are going to be able to perform and the style with which we are going to play.

 

[dudu]

Liverpool's fullbacks are both very athletic and far, far better crossers of the ball than Rose and so far what we have seen from KWP and Aurier. They keep the opposition fullbacks wide because they absolutely know that either FB will hurt you with a cross out wide. That keeps the the defence stretched.

Liverpool are also very good at switching the play out to whichever FB is free. Despite what some in this thread have been claiming Liverpool's cm was better than ours significantly so in terms of ball playing ability. So they have both the vision to see the pass and the technique to pull it off, something every Poch CM so far has been lacking.

I'm hoping with the addition of Ndombele and hopefully Lo Celso into CM and the relaxation of Sissoko to the bench that we are going to start seeing a progressive use of the ball in CM. Ndombele so has shown he can spot runs and has the technique to play the pass, Lo Celso I'm less sure of but we will see. If we do get a faster pattern of distribution both short and long then we can start spreading defences and more gaps will become apparent and the runs of Son, Kane and Moura more fruitful.

If only Rose could cross......

 

[gavspur]

If only Rose could cross......

Sess can see and pick a pass/cross quite nicely tho. Looking forward to seeing him in our team.

 

[kcmei]

I think both Poch and Pep teaches team tactics equally well. But what Pep does better is how he trains players individually to react to certain situations and locations on the pitch. Collectively, the extra footballing intelligence gives his players more confidence on the pitch with and without the ball

 

[Ronwol196061]

I think both Poch and Pep teaches team tactics equally well. But what Pep does better is how he trains players individually to react to certain situations and locations on the pitch. Collectively, the extra footballing intelligence gives his players more confidence on the pitch with and without the ball

Poch had a plan and it worked to a good degree in getting us where we were.Changing the way we play is a challenge to himself....and we need him to succeed but Pep has challenged himself at a high level and for a lot longer.
So let's see with Poch. 2 seasons to get it really going

 

[double0]

Pep doesn't need to worry about budgets if things ain't working he just buys the best in x position. Klopp's teams are exciting i will say, it's mainly press and counter however theirs not much control imo in midfield both are 433. Stylistically Poch teams are balanced if he can get players fit its just as eye catching and more flexible imo.

 

[JCRD]

What is it?

 

[Wadec]

Poch needs to take a long look at himself. If he is not prepared or able to get the best out of a group of players, he has assembled he needs to walk.

I love Poch and he is the best manager in my life time, however the results and more worryingly performances are not that of a team engaged or coached well. Changes are needed whether that be in his backroom team or methods.

I feel that in his first few seasons with us the team and players each knew their roles and had a clear direction on how we/they were playing. I feel for too long we have relied on individual performances and solid team performances are few and far between. There is a pattern forming where we start a game poorly and have to adapt.

Pep has always said he believes that you can only stay at one club for so long before it becomes stale. I hope and believe Poch can turn this around but I dont know if he is enjoying working with this group at the moment and I feel it is reflecting in our performances.