Sherwood has gone!

[Stavrogin]

All about opinions and although we did well, as a team, in some of the bigger games like you mention we'd also been found wanting in a lot of the games we were expected to win had it not been for Bale. The likelihood is we would of failed to break them down which of resulted in a lot frustration.

I think its fair to say we did well last year under AVB and of course he deserves credit for that and allowing Bale that free role but we need to keep things in perspective, we had one of the best in the world winning games, more or less, single handily for us at times - that made a hell of a difference to where we finished.

So, not taking credit away from AVB - just restoring a semblance of balance to this.

I think this is a warped discussion. You can make the case that Villas Boas did well in his first season but you can also say there were a lot of problems and they were masked by certain unreproducible factors (Bale, Luck etc.). The test then comes the following year when you'd expect things to take shape.

On the face of it, his half of this season would seem to validate those who looked sceptically at last season's accomplishments. But I don't know. I guess you can look at this Peeeyempee's signature to get a better a understanding of the nature of the debate.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

I think this is a warped discussion. You can make the case that Villas Boas did well in his first season but you can also say there were a lot of problems and they were masked by certain unreproducible factors (Bale, Luck etc.). The test then comes the following year when you'd expect things to take shape.

On the face of it, his half of this season would seem to validate those who looked sceptically at last season's accomplishments. But I don't know. I guess you can look at this Peeeyempee's signature to get a better a understanding of the nature of the debate.

with a settled squad perhaps, but should you not also then take into account the fact he again lost his best player and then had to try to integrate 7 new players into the team?

 

[FinnYid]

Please do us all a favour and stop posting manipulated data and post them as facts. Save all your defence of sherwood till the end of the season. You will look silly if we drop further down the table since your only weapon is our current position, which is looking vulnerable.

Why would I look ridiculous if I'm only taking stance on current situation?

And "manipulated data" is quite an obscure and subjective term. And what part of data I've posted isn't fact? Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less fact.

 

[Mr Pink]

the only time balance is required is when people try to make out last season was all down to Bale. unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there's anyone trying to claim it was all AVB?


fair enough, point taken.

Well I sense from the majority of the tone of this thread that it was only a matter of time before everything clicked into gear under AVB. The foundations were there etc, we had a clear methodology and structure to our play - if we had stuck with him, it would of paid of.

I completely disagree with the notion myself, as I've said a hundred times in this debate. When I talk about Bale last season its not why that I am trying to discredit AVB as such, its more to do with the fact with the way we played under AVB over the last 18 months, and it wasn't yielding enough clear cut chances - when looking at it objectively.

Now how I did that, was to imagine what we would of been like without Bale last season - as he was responsible for a lot of our goals and attacking play. I then collate that with what I've seen this season and my mind was pretty much made up. The safe and slow possession, that resulted in us struggling to create enough clear cut chances in games was not a sustainable methodology in my eyes, no matter how good it was at denying the opponent likewise - a good tactic away from home actually, and I credit AVB for that.

The problem was he couldn't adjust it at home. Teams below us in the League came to sit deep and keep it compact, we'd play the same way - high line, slow possession with most of the game being played in a highly congested area of the pitch - the space between the halfway line and their box. He'd use our speed merchants, who offer little intelligence and guile, where they had no room to even use their pace and we just had no answer to it and nor did AVB.

Whether he didn't have enough of the right type of player or they couldn't grasp all of the instructions/demands I don't know, but ultimately he wouldn't change it when it was clear as day it wasn't effective enough to play that way at home in your bread and butter games.

Its not all black and white, but for me that was biggest his failing and I didn't see that changing anytime soon. I had been patient as I was pleased with some of things he had done, but after three hammerings with still no improvement whatsoever at the other end of the pitch the writing was on the wall IMO.

 

[FinnYid]

Obviously Mathematics isn't his thing. Moreover the season has not ended, and the final standing could look worse.

Yeah could look, we were 7th when AVB departed and to fall to the 8th would mean Newcastle catching us 10 points in 7 rounds. Pigs could fly too.

Moreover someone might consider tone of certain Ginger Messiah worshippers as such that they wish Spurs to get shite results on april and may just so that the Chosen One woulnd't look so bad. Each to their own way. Guess saying it aloud will get dislikes and spams from those that feel sting from the comment. But hey, AVB on avatar is quite a giveaway.

 

[Tit&Ham]

Still black or White in here, ey?

 

[Ionman34]

with a settled squad perhaps, but should you not also then take into account the fact he again lost his best player and then had to try to integrate 7 new players into the team?

You should, and that is the most disappointing thing about AVB leaving (I say leaving because I'm unsure if he jumped or got pushed).

The flip side to that though is that you would hope to see a discernible improvement in performance as the season progresses, I'm not sure that this was the case under AVB.

Stick or twist for Levy, I know I don't envy him the position.

 

[Mr Pink]

with a settled squad perhaps, but should you not also then take into account the fact he again lost his best player and then had to try to integrate 7 new players into the team?

If we had a settled way of playing I think the new players would of adjusted quicker, some of them anyway.

Because we played with a lack of expression, for want of a better phrase, when attacking - I believe that would prohibit the new players fitting in smoothly.

Hard to learn the movement and passing instincts of your team mates when there was so little ambition in our passing - and not enough movement.

Still I do agree its certainly a factor, integrating that many new players was never going to be easy no matter how you play.

 

[dudu]

Team v Newcastle away (I think I've got the set-up right?)

Lloris
Walker, Kaboul, Vertonghen, Naughton
Bentaleb, Capoue, Dembele
Lennon, Adebayor, Paulinho

Subs - Friedel, Dawson, Townsend, Chadli, Eriksen, Kane, Soldado... (Soldado - 84' ), (Townsend - 64' ), (Chadli - 75' )

Next league match, away V Norwich, who I believe were having issues at both ends of the pitch? (God knows how this team was set up? I'll go with this)

Lloris
Naughton, Dawson, Vertonghen, Rose
Bentaleb, Capoue
Lennon, Paulinho, Dembele
Adebayor

Subs - Friedel, Soldado, Townsend, Chadli, Eriksen, Kane, Fryers...... Soldado, Townsend, Chadli all came on.

Now, Chadli came off the bench in the Newcastle match to replace the somewhat ineffective (AGAIN) Lennon, & scored a pearler. Eriksen saw no football whatsoever, for the second game running. Assuming, for the Norwich game, Kaboul was injured, along with Walker, it was obvious for Dawson to come in and take Kaboul's place. Naughton was the obvious swap for Walker, I'll bite my tongue about Rose.

WHY wasn't Chadli's excellence rewarded with Lennon's shirt from the start? WHY wasn't, for the second game running, Eriksen given any time on the pitch? WHY was the previous system, a system that destroyed a much better team than Norwich, not used against them? Especially when it worked so bloody well in the previous match!

Apart from the forced changes through injury, why the system change? (I may not have the formations right, but we definitely played a different system in each game).

Nothing at all to do with circumstance, and absolutely nothing at all to do with your unnecessary "conspiracy" suggestion. There was one overriding factor in both of those games, ie the person who selected the team, the set-up and the tactics.

What you are saying? Were you not happy with the set up and the tactics vs Newcastle?

I guess some managers play different systems against different systems and some may feel it justified to select a team identical (injury permitting) to the previous one that had just won 4-0 in the same competition.

There aren't many managers that have gone to Norwich and played a 4-3-3 so perhaps it has something to do with the way they setup or perhaps all the other managers are missing trick, which is possible considering at the time we played them the had just had a few good home results?

Chadli did actually start the direct next game vs Dnipro and played in its entirety. He had as decent a game as anyone on the night, worked hard but maybe didn't do enough to justify a start in the following game either. Townsend played a good hour that night so perhaps, starting Lennon in a nearly identical side to the victors of the previous weeks game was, without hindsight, not that dreadful a thing to have done.

I like Chadli as a player, have done since the start of the season but i think you will agree up till a few weeks ago, perhaps when he scored that goal at the Newcastle game, he hadn't done enough or any more than anyone else (Lennon, Townsend, Siggy) to warrant a definite start every game.

And i have no idea why Eriksen didn't play those two games - maybe he was burnt out, needed a rest, slightly off the pace in training? Maybe Tim is just an asshole who likes to fuck with us

All managers get things wrong and do things we aren't going to like or maybe ever even know the reason for. I don't particularly think he will be here next year with us but he is here now isn't he! And while he is I personally cannot ignore the fact that he is still highly inexperienced and prone to making errors. I don't hold his inexperience against him, i am rooting for him to learn from his mistakes.... which he sometimes does and which he sometimes does not..... like many a manager before him.

Would i prefer a more experienced manager, of course i would.

At the moment im more interested in finding positives where I can, if i can, trying to enjoy the end of a pretty insane season of football. I happen to think we have given, overall, a good account of ourselves in the last few games following Tim's public tirade at the players.

Tomorrows game will clearly be our biggest test since then. I have no idea whats going to happen and of it all goes tits up i will be as aggravated as anyone but i certainly won't be surprised.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

If we had a settled way of playing I think the new players would of adjusted quicker, some of them anyway.

Because we played with a lack of expression, for want of a better phrase, when attacking - I believe that would prohibit the new players fitting in smoothly.

Hard to learn the movement and passing instincts of your team mates when there was so little ambition in our passing - and not enough movement.

Still I do agree its certainly a factor, integrating that many new players was never going to be easy no matter how you play.

Barca probably have the most settled way of playing of any team in football. now, take out Messi plus two or three lesser/role players (to equate to Parker, Huddlestone, Caulker etc) and replace those with as many completely new players as we did. how likely is it that that that transition would be smooth or seamless, even with most of the remaining core having been there for so long and being familiar with the system, as opposed to the two straight summers of significant turnover that we have had?

I'll be the first to admit that AVB made quite a few mistakes especially this season, but the obvious thrashings aside, I don't think he was doing too badly all things considered, and season-on-season the results were broadly the same, and on the evidence of last season I think we would've picked up had he been given the chance to continue

 

[sloth]

Barca probably have the most settled way of playing of any team in football. now, take out Messi plus two or three lesser/role players (to equate to Parker, Huddlestone, Caulker etc) and replace those with as many completely new players as we did. how likely is it that that that transition would be smooth or seamless, even with most of the remaining core having been there for so long and being familiar with the system, as opposed to the two straight summers of significant turnover that we have had?

I'll be the first to admit that AVB made quite a few mistakes especially this season, but the obvious thrashings aside, I don't think he was doing too badly all things considered, and season-on-season the results were broadly the same, and on the evidence of last season I think we would've picked up had he been given the chance to continue

Think it was behind the scenes stuff which got him the sack, aided and abetted by the manner and style of two heavy losses to (at the time) top four rivals.

 

[FinnYid]

Think it was behind the scenes stuff which got him the sack, aided and abetted by the manner and style of two heavy losses to (at the time) top four rivals.

And when it came to scoring on PL, we looked like relegation fodder team. Actually Fulham was 19th at the time and had scored on par with us, probably with less help from somewhat lucky pen calls. Sure we had loads of shots, but those opportunistic attempts outside box weren't really that threatening.

 

[Revan1882]

It took Modric an entire season to adapt to the Premiership and the same again to adapt to La Liga. And bear in mind, broken leg aside he played most weeks. We can't say the same thing about any of this season's new signings. Explains an awful lot, in my opinion.

I understand it takes a while to bed in, it takes longer however when like Modric you are played out of position. I'm not saying that we should be seeing the best of any of the new players just yet, but it can't be the reason that in the first twenty mins of games we don't play but the second half we do. It doesn't make sense as for me if it was the other way around than yes you could say they were getting used to the pace of the game so tire later on.
TS keeps chopping and changing, that for me has more of an effect on how we start games then the fact that players are new as not all of them are. Our team as a whole look like they don't have a clue in the first 20mins of games, whether they are new or old players and in some games we haven't played any of the new players but its still the same. For me its the changing the starting 11 all the time that causes this issue and perhaps the training isn't up to scratch.

 

[Revan1882]

Take a look at our injury list since tim has been in charge and you might find a reason why there's been so much chopping and changing

We have had injures, but I don't think he knows what his starting 11 should be so he keeps trying to mix it up. Which I don't think helps and causes us to start so badly as there have been many chances for us to keep the core of the team the same. I can't think of a single game when our midfield as been the same from the last game... don't mean there hasn't but I really can't think of one.
It could also be that training isn't really going well, but without seeing them train all the time I couldn't say. However something isn't right for us to start matches so badly.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Ben Pearce @BenPearceSpurs

#thfc Quote that Spurs fans WON'T like: "To be honest, I've not watched them [Liverpool] that closely."

 

[yankspurs]

Ben Pearce @BenPearceSpurs

#thfc Quote that Spurs fans WON'T like: "To be honest, I've not watched them [Liverpool] that closely."

LMAO!

Tim said this? God help me.

 

[Cheltenham Spur]

Ben Pearce @BenPearceSpurs

#thfc Quote that Spurs fans WON'T like: "To be honest, I've not watched them [Liverpool] that closely."

Probably for the best. If he had to actually think about how to stop them his head would explode.

 

[allatsea]

Ben Pearce @BenPearceSpurs

#thfc Quote that Spurs fans WON'T like: "To be honest, I've not watched them [Liverpool] that closely."

He is either lying or that should be a sackable offence on it's own.

 

[highscore]

Ben Pearce @BenPearceSpurs

#thfc Quote that Spurs fans WON'T like: "To be honest, I've not watched them [Liverpool] that closely."

 

[al_pacino]

Trolled by Sherwood.

Everyone has seen plenty of Liverpool this season from the fans to the pros. Hands up who hasn't got a very good idea how they play and who their key players are? Stopping them is still a problem though.