SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[Deleted member 27995]

The Dier stuff makes a ton of sense to me.

I'd like to say that I don't like this narrow three we end up with at the edge of the oppositions area, we barely had any width until the last quarter of the game yesterday and then it only happened after Sissoko was pushed out to right back. Moura constantly drifted inside almost on top of Kane and in some instances Kane drifted either backwards or pushed over on top of Son. It neutralizes Kane, which is infuriating.

 

[mpickard2087]

Swear city had a similar shaper vs Bournemouth today and absolouely destroyed them.

That would be where the similarities end. There is no way City would ever have the ball at the back and 30-40 yards between the ball and the hidden men they want to give it to. Players all occupying the same space, on the same horizontal or vertical plains. No harmony between the players and the movements they're making in order to move the opposition about and create an overload. Etc. From a tactical perspective, the way they construct attacks and manipulate the ball about the park is several light years difference to us unfortunately.

 

[theShiznit]

Lets face it Pochettino is a defensive coach that has relied upon the high press and individual brilliance to create goals.
Now that we have no high press and teams have shut off the space for those individuals we have nothing. Can't even get those individuals the ball in the final third.

People talk about City playing a similar way but they are light years ahead, they have players that have an understanding of the overall pattern of play, who all play with their head up on the swivel, can play first time or dummy it and go for a return, look/see beyond the first available pass, interchanging with precision (even in tight spaces) Where as we have players with limited first touch that have no picture until they receive the ball and look up, all standing in the same space in straight lines not thinking where to go if a pass gets to the next player just slowly coming towards the ball and worse than this jogging around.
Lamela is the only one i see that has any nous about how to play against this type of packed defence/midfield, but his touch is hit and miss and balance, dribbling limited.
I would never start Moura again against a bus parker, he is one of the worst culprits who plays with his head down, when he does find space between the lines, a pass is not an option as the ball bounces around off him, so he just tries to bundle his way through, and with Kane somewhere nearby standing next to his two markers, he's not looking for the ball so it just breaks down.
People hoping Dele Alli is going to be the answer because he can make late runs, but again that's fine if space is there, but in this defensive pattern we see regularly against us Alli is going to make minimal difference.

It's got to the point (for me) where i just hope we stumble upon a system or combination of players that somehow hit it off on the pitch, as i see nothing systematically changing for the foreseeable.

It must be so easy to recreate these defensive conditions in training?

 

[Cochise]

For me I just hate how we always tend to end up in this sort of shape (a little artistic license used, but in the main it's very accurate):

Thankyou for making a picture to describe what I wanted to say (and did say in the match thread). Our CM's were more of a hindrance than a help today, effectively taking themselves out of the game by taking up those positions. All they did was knock the ball back and forth without giving Newcastle anything to think/worry about.

 

[mpickard2087]

Thankyou for making a picture to describe what I wanted to say (and did say in the match thread). Our CM's were more of a hindrance than a help today, effectively taking themselves out of the game by taking up those positions. All they did was knock the ball back and forth without giving Newcastle anything to think/worry about.

Our centre mids have always taken up those positions though, I don't think you can blame them when it's obviously tactical instruction. I've seen Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Mason, Bentaleb etc. doing exactly the same week in, week out and picking the ball up off the centre backs toes. It's a whole tactical failure in my opinion rather than any individual at fault. And when you don't have Eriksen's tactical intelligence and ability to do the job of three men linking the deep midfield to the high attack it's shown up even more.

 

[theShiznit]

Thankyou for making a picture to describe what I wanted to say (and did say in the match thread). Our CM's were more of a hindrance than a help today, effectively taking themselves out of the game by taking up those positions. All they did was knock the ball back and forth without giving Newcastle anything to think/worry about.

Is that really what you took from that post/graphic?

what about those four advanced of the CM's standing in a straight line surrounded by 8 players aren't they hindering the whole team let alone the CM's?

 

[Cochise]

Is that really what you took from that post/graphic?

what about those four advanced of the CM's standing in a straight line surrounded by 8 players aren't they hindering the whole team let alone the CM's?

Agreed, they are looking for the ball between the lines, but the lines were too close together. The CM's and CB's should be used to draw out some of those players to open those pockets up, but our four were on top of eachother and in front of their midfield.

Had one of Winks or Sissoko been playing off the shoulder of one of those midfielders they would've had something to think about, their positioning uncertain. If your opponent stands in front of you all day, you can hold your shape.

 

[punkisback]

I think we need a new addition to the coaching staff, an attacking coach. We never seem to sign good attacking players or coach them; maybe its because Poch was a defender?

 

[theShiznit]

Agreed, they are looking for the ball between the lines, but the lines were too close together. The CM's and CB's should be used to draw out some of those players to open those pockets up, but our four were on top of eachother and in front of their midfield.

Had one of Winks or Sissoko been playing off the shoulder of one of those midfielders they would've had something to think about, their positioning uncertain. If your opponent stands in front of you all day, you can hold your shape.

Unfortunately i don't think it's as simple as the CM's playing higher up drawing out the 2 banks of four, we saw Winks on occasion carry the ball to almost the edge of the box and later Eriksen and Lo Celso playing higher up but still just shuffling the ball side to side. as these teams pretty much leave the space wide due to our lack of quality in those ares. Confident they can deal with any hopeful balls into the box leaving no space between the lines.

 

['O Zio]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we really miss having the Walker/Rose combination as wingbacks. Them pushing so high up the pitch and staying wide forced bus-parking teams to stretch out which obviously opens up spaces in the middle for the likes of Ali, Eriksen etc. to take up. That was what made us so lethal in Walker's final season. Ever since he left we've had fullbacks who are unsuited to playing that role (Trippier and Davies) and Rose has either been injured and/or not at his best for whatever reason. We've also now got the double-whammy of not having anyone to play the Dier or Wanyama role as people have described above, so even when we do play a quick wingback like KWP we just leave ourselves too vulnerable with it.

We need to go back to having really aggressive attacking fullbacks with plenty of recovery pace otherwise we just keep ending up passing the ball around sideways against these bus-parking teams. We're far too easy to defend against at the moment because we only threaten through the middle and rely on moments of individual brilliance to break through.

 

[spursfan77]

I think we need a new addition to the coaching staff, an attacking coach. We never seem to sign good attacking players or coach them; maybe its because Poch was a defender?

I was thinking this earlier. The players need a new voice too to react to.

 

[stevenqoz]

Poch has several problems to address but one of them is not Winks. He is superior to Dier in most aspects of central midfield play. Better touch, quicker distribution, more mobile. That said, most sides will come to WHL and sit deep, not unlike Newcastle. To me our primary problem lies with the lack of a natural wide attacking player. George N who we just sold, was judged by Poch not to be up to the job. Jack Clarke, is two seasons off being that player. What this means is our formational options are limited. Neither Lamela, Son nor Moura want to stand getting white on their boots on the touchline. Whether we play full backs in a four or wing backs in a three it is presently down to Rose and KWP to provide width and delivery, neither are up to the job of getting to the goaline regularly and pulling it back. (Trippier left partly because offensively, last season, he couldn't do it regularly) The lack of a natural winger against Newcastle narrowed the pitch by 20 metres, it also meant that by and large most of the play was actually right in front of the defence, defenders rarely having to turn. We won't always need such width but it should always be an option

 

[Shadydan]

Time to bring this thread bad methinks



The counter attacking point is very interesting, kinda suggests that Mourinho is gonna play with pace out wide more often which could mean more starts for Lucas.

Incidentally if rumors are correct and he is interested in Bale then that could potentially be a hell of a signing.

 

[dudu]

Time to bring this thread bad methinks



The counter attacking point is very interesting, kinda suggests that Mourinho is gonna play with pace out wide more often which could mean more starts for Lucas.

Incidentally if rumors are correct and he is interested in Bale then that could potentially be a hell of a signing.

Such boring tactics

 

[Nerine]

Time to bring this thread bad methinks



The counter attacking point is very interesting, kinda suggests that Mourinho is gonna play with pace out wide more often which could mean more starts for Lucas.

Incidentally if rumors are correct and he is interested in Bale then that could potentially be a hell of a signing.

Cool vid, that.

 

[dagraham]

Time to bring this thread bad methinks



The counter attacking point is very interesting, kinda suggests that Mourinho is gonna play with pace out wide more often which could mean more starts for Lucas.

Incidentally if rumors are correct and he is interested in Bale then that could potentially be a hell of a signing.

will never happen, but I can’t imagine many defences in the world would sleep well knowing they had to face Bale, Kane and Son together.

 

[C-oops]

It's been one game. An away one against a local rival. Lots of these bedroom tacticians are going to look stupid if he changes it up tonight and in future.

 

[wrd]

I enjoyed how we went about things tactically thus far. I love the back 5 and front 5 notion which stops needless energy from being expanded. I also think we are really fortunate in the sense that we have 2 youth prospects which I'd say can execute this set up in an even better fashion in Sessegnon and Foyth. I hope we go down that route sooner rather than later although it has to be said. Davies basically playing as a LCB when we're in posession is exactly where he belongs and it also focuses on the strengths of Aurier but I see more potential in the aforementioned Sessegnon and Foyth.

I find it interesting that although we are taking on similar set ups to Liverpool/City it still has that typical Jose pragmatism. City and Liv both go for the 2-3-5 where as we are setting up more in the 3-2-5. I'll be honest I haven't analysed Liverpool and City enough to see whether the additional 3rd man in midfield allows for them to be able to add the 6th man to the front more easily which allows for quicker overloads although I have seen Wijnaldum provide that on occasion and also Hendo but I think for the players we have I prefer the pragmatism.

City tend to set up with inverted fullbacks giving them:

Stones Laporte
Fernandinho
Walker Zinchenko

This allows Walker to be the 6th man in the overload which works perfectly with Silva/Mahrez on that right not being of a similar ilk to Sterling/Sane but they also heavily benefit from Zinchenko playing as a midfielder from Ukraine.

Liv just go with the fullbacks pushing up because their fullbacks are their playmakers with very little coming from midfield, to the point where Keita barely gets a look in although with their dominance they've begun adding Oxlade-Chamberlain as the 3rd midfielder at times.

Matip Van Dijk
Fabinho
Hendo Wijnaldum

As I say I'm pleased we're being more pragmatic as we don't have the defence at the moment to be risking the back 2 and it also allows us to get into that back 4 rather quickly with Dier being able to drop back pretty sharpish.

I'm excited from Ndombele, He has been incredible in picking out runs where Kane has been isolated he typically finds Son now his field of view has the potential to look like this:

Dier Ndombele
Moura Kane Dele Son Sessegnon

Now those are some options in a front 5 to be passing to. Interesting they cite our assistant coach as the attacking aspect to Jose more pragmatic defensive qualities.

 

[wrd]

Davies being injured is going to cause issues for us tactically but there's a few solves we can look at. In my opinion we can't play the set up we have in the last 2 with Danny Rose, he isn't good in that LCB role and for my money he'd have been hooked had Jan been on the pitch.

I see a few solutions

The first is what I've mentioned in my previous post which is to switch the fullback to the attacking left and bringing in Foyth as the RB who sits with Sessegnon left but I think most of us would agree that Aurier deserves to continue his current run in the team as he's put 2 good performances together and you want to reward that.

The next solution which is what I think we will end up dong is replacing Rose/Davies with Vertonghen. He can play LB and he'd essentially be playing as an LCB so that would sit nicely with me.

I must admit I have concerns about how we're lining up the CB's at the moment. I think we can all agree that Sanchez was not good as a RB and although he's been the stand out CB in the first 2 games under Jose, I'm not sure whether it'd be better if he was the left sided CB in the 4 and thus the central defender in the 3 which means he can cover with his pace. I guess the argument is whether you think we need more pace on the sides of the back 3 or whether it's better to have the pace central to cover the two slower CB's. Truth is I don't know and would be guessing.

The final solution would actually take us closer to what Poch was trying to achieve. Which if you continue down the route of having a front 5 and a back 5. You instead push both fullbacks up into your front 5 positions and drop Moura so your front 5 would look something like this:

Aurier Dele Sessegnon
Kane Son

Which to be fair I quite like as attacking options but this does come with problems. The key thing Poch ran into was that he tried to play it so we had two CB's sitting high and then we had Winks/Sissoko/Eriksen as the 3 in midfield which didn't provide the additional man to sit between the CB's properly. So when the ball was in the final 3rd we had 2 slow CB's up against the counter starting high up with Winks/Sissoko not doing much to provide cover for them. Which was frustrating when you consider that most of our attacks started with Winks having to take the ball off of the CB's toes, either that or a Jan/Alder hopeful long ball.

So what I'd propose if we went down this route was that we would drop Moura as I already mentioned and go with a midfield 3 of Dier, Ndombele and Lo Celso. I've seen a few people put Ndombele and Lo Celso as their midfield duo for the next game but I believe unless we played Vert at LB which would mean we would have the 3 then we would run into problems when teams try to counter us.

So instead I'd go when in possesion with a formation looking like this:

Sanchez Dier Vert
Lo Celso Ndombele

Aurier Dele Sessegnon
Kane Son

One of the key parts of this is I think Jose will drop the CB line back allowing them to spread a little better with Dier sitting in so that would help the fullbacks get back into position a little easier with the cover there.

So you have Ndombele and Lo Celso with the ability to try and pick the correct passes and play between the lines. Now the problem with this is what we faced under Poch with the Diamond which is the covering of width. I believe the reason we struggled under Poch was because as I say we lacked that DM to sit between the CB's but also we didn't have a coherent plan for when we were out of possesion for who's responsibility it was to get out wide and it meant our midfield was pulled apart with Son and Kane ordered to stay up.

So out of possession I'd want the team to set up like this:

Aurier Sanchez Vert Sessegnon
Lo Celso Dier Dele Ndombele Son
Kane



I think that might work as a solution if we want to try and replace Davies with Sessegnon and I'd be really happy as I've managed to shoehorn Lo Celso in but I do think Jose will be more pragmatic and go with Vert on the left. which expels less energy.

 

[rsmith]

The first is what I've mentioned in my previous post which is to switch the fullback to the attacking left and bringing in Foyth as the RB who sits with Sessegnon left but I think most of us would agree that Aurier deserves to continue his current run in the team as he's put 2 good performances together and you want to reward that.

Nice analysis, but I do see some issues.
If we bring in an attacking LFB, and drop the RFB back, we have the LFB and Son occupying the same space as Son seems to like to play as a LW and it seems that Dele likes to drift left in support. On the other side, with Moura playing inside right, we lose the width and crossing that Aurier is currently providing. If Coco plays, he tends to start on the right, but cut in rather than attack the byline.

At CB, one of our current problems is that we are playing Toby out of position at LCB to accommodate the uni-footed Sanchez. I do like the sound of Verts at LFB as he has shown the ability to carry the ball forward and is arguably our best crosser of the ball. I can picture his crosses from deep terrorising defences, particularly on transitions.

I think the thing we learnt last night is that Jose will set his side up on a game-by-game basis (or even half-by-half) and will pick the players and formation that will do a job on any given day.