Ratings vs Arsenal

[Bus-Conductor]

Dembers obviously. CM is a lot about physicality, time and winning the right to play. Dembers has been the best CM in the premier league this season never mind our team

Sorry but i simply disagree. In three plus years with us Dembele has rarely played two "great" CM games consecutively, which is why in all that time it's only this season he's actually nailed a place down there more frequently, and then it's been mostly next to the ultra conservative Dier, with (when I last looked) the hardest working front four ahead and the best CB pairing behind.

Dembele isn't close to being complete. He moves the ball way to slowly and frenetic games like yesterday can easily pass him by in midfield.

The complete CM is an incredibly rare thing. The best central midfielder in the league this season for me has been Kante. He's been fucking outstanding, but I wouldn't call him complete. Last season it was Matic and he's probably the closest to a complete CM when on song in the EPL right now, followed maybe by Schniederlin. Both are in the Petit mould. Physique, athleticism, intelligence, tenacity, positional awareness, passing range.

I think playing a CM2 is one of, if not the, hardest jobs in football. You rarely find a player who has physical presence, tackles like a bastard, passes like a maestro, is dynamic, intelligent etc.

 

[Spurger King]

In hindsight, and having just watched the last 35 minutes of the game, I don't think Poch got loads wrong tactically during this game. I think in an ideal world he should have swapped Alli - who bar chasing down the ball for Kane's wonder goal had an absolutely awful game - but the problem was Lamela had got himself on a yellow, and we all know that he is prone to fly into a tackle recklessly, and though he was contributing really well without the ball, he wasn't contributing much of substance with the ball either and was also wasteful, so I can really understand the logic of taking him off first. At 67 min, 2-1 up, Mason's was the right man to come on, his ability to compete, show for the ball and pass it was exactly what was needed at 2-1 up against 10 men. And for the next ten minutes we were actually managing the game very well, and looking like adding to our tally whilst they were not threatening at all.

The bigger problem for me was how little control our CM's were exerting on the game throughout, and also how little our front four, but particularly Alli, Lamela and Kane contributed to this and added to the problem by repeatedly fucking away possession.

I find it really troubling that a team away from home and with ten men for 39 minutes of the game managed to complete almost as many passes as we did. Their front four completed 18 more passes (112) than our front four (94).

Both their goals come about as a result of us sloppily coughing up the ball in attack. You could say we were a bit unfortunate as we actually didn't concede many clear chances to them, but we didn't create any clear chances from open play, so they were unlucky to concede two goals to us too.

What also happened was Wenger made a very offensive sub of Giroud on for Elneny just before the goal. What this meant was, now when we kept turning over the ball cheaply, they would break with an increased numerical advantage, as a result of these factors - our cm's lack of control, our forwards/am's turning over the ball, their numerical forward overload - the game became end to end.

I don't know if the next two subs were forced on Poch through injury/fitness (I can't see why else he would make the like for like swap of Rose/Davies) but if they weren't forced then they were not tactically very smart, but I guess with Mason on, swapping one of the poor CM's for an pacey, direct attacker was worth a shot.

But I come back to my point about "control". And I used the stats comparison with last year to try and make that point. Last year our CM's completely dictated the game, the tempo, they made 30 more passes (against a more superior 11 men) than our CM's did this year. And they were aided by having both Eriksen and Dembele in the AM's, meaning possession wasn't continually frittered away cheaply. It was a much better combination for a frenetic game of this type.

As I've said elsewhere, we are talking margin calls now. What Poch is IMO getting a little wrong in terms of selection or tactically at times, he is getting very right in terms of what he's coaching into this team and in other tactical areas he's improved us drastically. And I can understand why with his front foot, final third loading philosophy, he maybe feels that Dier and Dembele mitigate and help him manage the defensive phases. And in some cases I empathise and see that logic. Which is important - that even if you don't agree with something, you see some logic - but I do think that in many games this season we have missed what a player like Bentaleb brought to the team. And as I've said elsewhere I think we have thrown a tiny bit of the CM baby out with the CM bathwater. I'd like to see either Dier/Bentaleb or Dembele/Mason together.

I think we suffered from a shattered Dier, and a not fully fit Dembele being in the centre. When Mason came on it seemed to muddle up our formation, and it made it easier for Arsenal to get at us.

Bentaleb needs game time, but more importantly he needs to use that game time to show us what we have been missing. I like Carroll a lot as he can offer a metronomic stability in the middle (along with the positive, forward passing that Mason is also capable of), but he is a bit lightweight and lacks the defensive grit that Bentaleb and Mason have shown in the past.

Personally I'd like to see Bentaleb come on from the bench against Dortmund, and maybe get a start against Villa. Pochettino needs to be smart in the way he manages our midfielders (especially Dier) because whenever we play poorly it seems to be the centre of the park that is leading to our problems.

 

[TimmyShee]

We'll it's inevitable that Dier will be suspended for two games soon so we will soon see.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Sorry but i simply disagree. In three plus years with us Dembele has rarely played two "great" CM games consecutively, which is why in all that time it's only this season he's actually nailed a place down there more frequently, and then it's been mostly next to the ultra conservative Dier, with (when I last looked) the hardest working front four ahead and the best CB pairing behind.

Dembele isn't close to being complete. He moves the ball way to slowly and frenetic games like yesterday can easily pass him by in midfield.

The complete CM is an incredibly rare thing. The best central midfielder in the league this season for me has been Kante. He's been fucking outstanding, but I wouldn't call him complete. Last season it was Matic and he's probably the closest to a complete CM when on song in the EPL right now, followed maybe by Schniederlin. Both are in the Petit mould. Physique, athleticism, intelligence, tenacity, positional awareness, passing range.

I think playing a CM2 is one of, if not the, hardest jobs in football. You rarely find a player who has physical presence, tackles like a bastard, passes like a maestro, is dynamic, intelligent etc.

Completely disagree that he hasn't played two great games together. Do you not agree he gives us a platform to get into games, a physical presence and someone who's composed on the ball. I think him dawdling on the ball is an exaggeration just as much as saying Bentaleb has a brain fart every game. Not only that even if he does hold onto the ball a second too long at times at least he can properly look after it and manoeuvre it. He's got the ability to do that. I don't trust dier or Mason when they are closed down at pace I trust Dembele. I agree he's not the complete midfielder but he's the closest we have and I'd have him over schniederlin every day of the week.

With regard to him not being a regular last season I actually disagreed with the manager and thought he should of played a lot more. Maybe it was a fitness issue as well. Bentaleb has played far fewer games this season so does that mean he's not good enough either?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think we suffered from a shattered Dier, and a not fully fit Dembele being in the centre. When Mason came on it seemed to muddle up our formation, and it made it easier for Arsenal to get at us.

Bentaleb needs game time, but more importantly he needs to use that game time to show us what we have been missing. I like Carroll a lot as he can offer a metronomic stability in the middle (along with the positive, forward passing that Mason is also capable of), but he is a bit lightweight and lacks the defensive grit that Bentaleb and Mason have shown in the past.

Personally I'd like to see Bentaleb come on from the bench against Dortmund, and maybe get a start against Villa. Pochettino needs to be smart in the way he manages our midfielders (especially Dier) because whenever we play poorly it seems to be the centre of the park that is leading to our problems.

I think against West Ham he (Dier) and we as a team were outnumbered in midfield and overrun, I think yesterday the game was just too frenetic for players like Dier and Dembele. We've seen this before with both of them in other games and phases of games and people like myself and @mpickard2087 have pointed this out.

I think our forward players carelessness absolutely contributed to the midfield problems yesterday. Our forwards were good without the ball, worked hard but it was like a fucking hot potato for all of them, and the full backs and even Eriksen at times and that really didn't help our cause.

With Arsenal down to ten and us 2-1 up with 15 minutes to go, there's no dressing up that that was a guilt edged chance to to put some real daylight between us. More annoying is that Arsenal will take a morale boost out of coming from behind against us, at our place, with ten men in a week when their bottle was being questioned and our players must come out of that feeling like they've been kicked in the bollocks, especially after being worked over by West Ham in the week. It's been a tough few days. And now we go away to one of the best teams in Europe this season who held Bayern to a draw on saturday and who also play with a high intensity. Hard to imagine a tougher 8 days of football to be honest.

 

[Shadydan]

I think against West Ham he (Dier) and we as a team were outnumbered in midfield and overrun, I think yesterday the game was just too frenetic for players like Dier and Dembele. We've seen this before with both of them in other games and phases of games and people like myself and @mpickard2087 have pointed this out.

I think our forward players carelessness absolutely contributed to the midfield problems yesterday. Our forwards were good without the ball, worked hard but it was like a fucking hot potato for all of them, and the full backs and even Eriksen at times and that really didn't help our cause.

With Arsenal down to ten and us 2-1 up with 15 minutes to go, there's no dressing up that that was a guilt edged chance to to put some real daylight between us. More annoying is that Arsenal will take a morale boost out of coming from behind against us, at our place, with ten men in a week when their bottle was being questioned and our players must come out of that feeling like they've been kicked in the bollocks, especially after being worked over by West Ham in the week. It's been a tough few days. And now we go away to one of the best teams in Europe this season who held Bayern to a draw on saturday and who also play with a high intensity. Hard to imagine a tougher 8 days of football to be honest.

They need to go to Barcelona next week, let's hope they get trashed and crumble as a result.

 

[Spurger King]

I think against West Ham he (Dier) and we as a team were outnumbered in midfield and overrun, I think yesterday the game was just too frenetic for players like Dier and Dembele. We've seen this before with both of them in other games and phases of games and people like myself and @mpickard2087 have pointed this out.

I think our forward players carelessness absolutely contributed to the midfield problems yesterday. Our forwards were good without the ball, worked hard but it was like a fucking hot potato for all of them, and the full backs and even Eriksen at times and that really didn't help our cause.

With Arsenal down to ten and us 2-1 up with 15 minutes to go, there's no dressing up that that was a guilt edged chance to to put some real daylight between us. More annoying is that Arsenal will take a morale boost out of coming from behind against us, at our place, with ten men in a week when their bottle was being questioned and our players must come out of that feeling like they've been kicked in the bollocks, especially after being worked over by West Ham in the week. It's been a tough few days. And now we go away to one of the best teams in Europe this season who held Bayern to a draw on saturday and who also play with a high intensity. Hard to imagine a tougher 8 days of football to be honest.

I don't think Arsenal should be feeling too great about themselves. That's twice now in the league that they've had to pull a goal out of their arse late in the game to avoid defeat to us (that's the positive alternative to us capitulating to them twice, and I'm sticking to it!).

As for Dortmund, I just don't see it as a high pressure game in all honesty. I suspect Pochettino will be placing emphasis on the players simply enjoying the occasion and treating themselves to a break from the pressures of the league.The players are clearly shattered. Win and it will boost confidence (and give us a great chance of a trophy). Lose and it means tiredness won't be so much of a factor in our challenge for the title.

The players will know that. It's the very definition of a win-win.

 

[dontsalebale]

Sorry but i simply disagree. In three plus years with us Dembele has rarely played two "great" CM games consecutively, which is why in all that time it's only this season he's actually nailed a place down there more frequently, and then it's been mostly next to the ultra conservative Dier, with (when I last looked) the hardest working front four ahead and the best CB pairing behind.

Dembele isn't close to being complete. He moves the ball way to slowly and frenetic games like yesterday can easily pass him by in midfield.

The complete CM is an incredibly rare thing. The best central midfielder in the league this season for me has been Kante. He's been fucking outstanding, but I wouldn't call him complete. Last season it was Matic and he's probably the closest to a complete CM when on song in the EPL right now, followed maybe by Schniederlin. Both are in the Petit mould. Physique, athleticism, intelligence, tenacity, positional awareness, passing range.

I think playing a CM2 is one of, if not the, hardest jobs in football. You rarely find a player who has physical presence, tackles like a bastard, passes like a maestro, is dynamic, intelligent etc.

How much did Kante create or dominate in his three games against us not a lot. He is a dynamic midfield player no doubt but he cant dominate and pull strings the way Dembers does. If you cannot see what he brings to the table it is going to be difficult to convince you otherwise. Your criticism about him moving the ball to slowly is about 12 months out of date which makes me think you are grasping at straws. He is now the player we thought we were getting when Modric left. As for the Matic comparison I think you will be whistling a different tune after we play Chelski

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How much did Kante create or dominate in his three games against us not a lot. He is a dynamic midfield player no doubt but he cant dominate and pull strings the way Dembers does. If you cannot see what he brings to the table it is going to be difficult to convince you otherwise. Your criticism about him moving the ball to slowly is about 12 months out of date which makes me think you are grasping at straws. He is now the player we thought we were getting when Modric left. As for the Matic comparison I think you will be whistling a different tune after we play Chelski

Some German guy wrote a tactical analytical article for an online publication that @sloth posted on here a few days ago saying exactly the same things about Dembele and Dier. Dembele hasn't suddenly become this metronomic playmaker. I can see what he brings, which is why I'm not saying drop him and never play him again, I'm saying I don't think him and Dier are always the best balance or blend and I'm saying Dembele isn't always great as a CM in a team that has "quick transition" as one of it's core principles.

Personally I think Dembele should be used more often in an advanced role, because at the moment we have too many forward players like Alli, Kane, Son, Lamela who fuck about trying flicks and tricks and dribbling at defenders when they really aren't great at dribbling, where Dembele wouldn't fritter it away like that, looks after it better, can dribble, is incredibly hard to knock off the ball and would also help the forward press.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't think Arsenal should be feeling too great about themselves. That's twice now in the league that they've had to pull a goal out of their arse late in the game to avoid defeat to us (that's the positive alternative to us capitulating to them twice, and I'm sticking to it!).

As for Dortmund, I just don't see it as a high pressure game in all honesty. I suspect Pochettino will be placing emphasis on the players simply enjoying the occasion and treating themselves to a break from the pressures of the league.The players are clearly shattered. Win and it will boost confidence (and give us a great chance of a trophy). Lose and it means tiredness won't be so much of a factor in our challenge for the title.

The players will know that. It's the very definition of a win-win.

I don't think Pochettino will be approaching the Dortmund game remotely like that, and I don't think he should either. Last year we all thought going out the Europa would help us kick on, instead it had almost the opposite effect.

 

[Spurger King]

I don't think Pochettino will be approaching the Dortmund game remotely like that, and I don't think he should either. Last year we all thought going out the Europa would help us kick on, instead it had almost the opposite effect.

Well I hope you're wrong, and I expect you're wrong.

We won't field our strongest 11. We'll field a good team with some key changes. Obviously I want us to win it, and so will Pochettino, but the 9 games left in the Prem are more important than the possible 7 extra matches.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Well I hope you're wrong, and I expect you're wrong.

We won't field our strongest 11. We'll field a good team with some key changes. Obviously I want us to win it, and so will Pochettino, but the 9 games left in the Prem are more important than the possible 7 extra matches.

We might make a couple of changes (fb's and a midfielder maybe) but I meant the stuff you said about Poch telling the players it's a freebie and to enjoy themselves etc.

 

[Bulletspur]

In hindsight, and having just watched the last 35 minutes of the game, I don't think Poch got loads wrong tactically during this game. I think in an ideal world he should have swapped Alli - who bar chasing down the ball for Kane's wonder goal had an absolutely awful game - but the problem was Lamela had got himself on a yellow, and we all know that he is prone to fly into a tackle recklessly, and though he was contributing really well without the ball, he wasn't contributing much of substance with the ball either and was also wasteful, so I can really understand the logic of taking him off first. At 67 min, 2-1 up, Mason's was the right man to come on, his ability to compete, show for the ball and pass it was exactly what was needed at 2-1 up against 10 men. And for the next ten minutes we were actually managing the game very well, and looking like adding to our tally whilst they were not threatening at all.

The bigger problem for me was how little control our CM's were exerting on the game throughout, and also how little our front four, but particularly Alli, Lamela and Kane contributed to this and added to the problem by repeatedly fucking away possession.

I find it really troubling that a team away from home and with ten men for 39 minutes of the game managed to complete almost as many passes as we did. Their front four completed 18 more passes (112) than our front four (94).

Both their goals come about as a result of us sloppily coughing up the ball in attack. You could say we were a bit unfortunate as we actually didn't concede many clear chances to them, but we didn't create any clear chances from open play, so they were unlucky to concede two goals to us too.

What also happened was Wenger made a very offensive sub of Giroud on for Elneny just before the goal. What this meant was, now when we kept turning over the ball cheaply, they would break with an increased numerical advantage, as a result of these factors - our cm's lack of control, our forwards/am's turning over the ball, their numerical forward overload - the game became end to end.

I don't know if the next two subs were forced on Poch through injury/fitness (I can't see why else he would make the like for like swap of Rose/Davies) but if they weren't forced then they were not tactically very smart, but I guess with Mason on, swapping one of the poor CM's for an pacey, direct attacker was worth a shot.

But I come back to my point about "control". And I used the stats comparison with last year to try and make that point. Last year our CM's completely dictated the game, the tempo, they made 30 more passes (against a more superior 11 men) than our CM's did this year. And they were aided by having both Eriksen and Dembele in the AM's, meaning possession wasn't continually frittered away cheaply. It was a much better combination for a frenetic game of this type.

As I've said elsewhere, we are talking margin calls now. What Poch is IMO getting a little wrong in terms of selection or tactically at times, he is getting very right in terms of what he's coaching into this team and in other tactical areas he's improved us drastically. And I can understand why with his front foot, final third loading philosophy, he maybe feels that Dier and Dembele mitigate and help him manage the defensive phases. And in some cases I empathise and see that logic. Which is important - that even if you don't agree with something, you see some logic - but I do think that in many games this season we have missed what a player like Bentaleb brought to the team. And as I've said elsewhere I think we have thrown a tiny bit of the CM baby out with the CM bathwater. I'd like to see either Dier/Bentaleb or Dembele/Mason together.

You cannot let it go can you @Bus-Conductor. This hardon you have for both Mason and Bentaleb. Let it flop man

 

[UpTownSpur]

I do rate him. But like a minority on here I have issues with his 'attacking substance' game by game. He did the usual Lamela stuff well yesterday, perhaps particularly well, and I credit him for that, but there was little in the way of consistent final third quality for me.

I agree with this completely and I see there's familiar themes of Lamela points of discussion in this thread. With that in mind I'd like to act as a mediator between the LFBC (Lamela Fan Boy Community) and the LTC (Lamela Truther Community). I think I speak for the whole LTC when I say that Lamela gave an excellent performance against Arsenal in terms of work rate, hustle and winning the ball back, and, indeed, he's perhaps the best at the club at this and reaches a level other players should aspire to. On the other hand, I wish that members of LFBC would cede some ground and acknowledge that, as an attacking threat, he's quite limited and rarely manages to effect the game, perhaps once in ten games or so does he really make a difference in terms of providing FTQ, and isn't at the same level as Alli, Eriksen or Kane in that regard. He deserves his place at the moment because Son or Chadli really haven't shown enough - Njie remains my great hope. Though, looking forward, would the LFBC not acknowledge that ideally we should be looking to bring in a special player like a Mharez or a Hazard of last season, if we want to move to the next level? And Lamela would make a great back up to a number of positions across the AM3. I know lots of you think he is somehow going to drastically improve and reach those levels but I don't see it personally.

 

[Spurs 1961]

Some German guy wrote a tactical analytical article for an online publication that @sloth posted on here a few days ago saying exactly the same things about Dembele and Dier. Dembele hasn't suddenly become this metronomic playmaker. I can see what he brings, which is why I'm not saying drop him and never play him again, I'm saying I don't think him and Dier are always the best balance or blend and I'm saying Dembele isn't always great as a CM in a team that has "quick transition" as one of it's core principles.

Personally I think Dembele should be used more often in an advanced role, because at the moment we have too many forward players like Alli, Kane, Son, Lamela who fuck about trying flicks and tricks and dribbling at defenders when they really aren't great at dribbling, where Dembele wouldn't fritter it away like that, looks after it better, can dribble, is incredibly hard to knock off the ball and would also help the forward press.

Dembele for me was a waste of space until this season when he has looked reasonably fit and so contributed. I agree his contribution is when playing higher up the pitch and running at defences; he offers something that is different to the likes of Eriksen, Lamela and Son. I personally think Alli alongside Dier is better as Alli is quicker, has more energy and can burst forward yet still get back ... I think he has more in his locker than Dembele but he is young so will be inconsistent

 

[Spurs 1961]

Rose or Lamela for me. Can't say anyone was great but these two tried so hard. When players are not on form it comes down to being able to battle, give all and these two do. Went for Lamela in the end as I think when he went off we lost something. Of course had he stayed he might have got sent off but let's face it we might have been better with ten than we were with eleven at the end when we were just hanging on

 

[Borks]

Rose or Lamela for me. Can't say anyone was great but these two tried so hard. When players are not on form it comes down to being able to battle, give all and these two do. Went for Lamela in the end as I think when he went off we lost something. Of course had he stayed he might have got sent off but let's face it we might have been better with ten than we were with eleven at the end when we were just hanging on

You have a gooner as your display pic, bad times!

 

[Bobbins]

Disappointing game for a variety of reasons.

It was the exact starting line-up I was hoping for. But it didn't perform as I was hoping it would.

Dembele was clearly not 100% fit as huge swathes of the game passed him by. I prefer to see him in a more advanced position and looking back, with the benefit of hindsight, it might've been better to have him start in the 10 area with Eriksen on the left, and Mason or Alli alongside Dier. Alli can be very lightweight in a CM2 though so that's represent a significant risk against Arsenal.

Alli overall was terrible, and again, clearly didn't look fit.

Lloris will be disappointed to have got a hand to both goals and not kept one out. I also felt he could've been quicker to react to the breaking of our defensive line.

Rose and Walker demonstrated again that they may be the two most accomplished athletes at fullback in the league, but are also two of the worst crossers of the ball.

It must be said the squad is looking tired, as well all expected from a Poch team in the latter stages.

Son was, once again, terrible. I'm sorry to have to say it but he really was.

Taking Lamela off killed us but was also very probably the right thing to do. Mason was the right player to bring on as well. I was hoping to see us switch to a 4-3-3 at that point and maintain some territory and pressure on the Arsenal defence, which happened initially, but we surrendered this pretty quickly.

It's frustrating. Elements of the squad aren't performing as well as they could/should. Mason's lost some ability to exert control. Son is all over the shop - he should've been a great player to bring on in that game - quick, strong, with a very dangerous shot. Personally I've had enough of seeing him in the forward three and want to see him play striker - where he seemed more effective and has less responsibility. He should've been putting pressure on Ospina in that kind of game with direct running and dangerous shooting. Bentaleb is so off form it's frightening - he should have been an ideal bench option on Saturday, able to come on and exert control, forward influence, and with a great engine. But he's simply not playing well enough for Poch to pick.

Overall it's annoying not to beat them but at least we didn't lose and at least we got a world class goal. I think Poch did quite well and made mostly the right decisions. But the squad does need reinforcement in the summer in some key areas - especially in terms of seniority, not just more kids.

 

[double0]

Mason Bentaleb is a very good partnership and I'm surprised we haven't been using it at certain times.

Last season the complaints was the protection from that pairing wasn't good enough which lead to goals being conceded and Dier without question along with Alderweireld have improved our defensive record.

Last season poor defensive record was down to are CB's, it was atrocious, with Alderweireld we have improved at the back now and it would be interesting to see Mason Bentaleb in certain games.

 

[Spurs 1961]

Dembele for me was a waste of space until this season when he has looked reasonably fit and so contributed. I agree his contribution is when playing higher up the pitch and running at defences; he offers something that is different to the likes of Eriksen, Lamela and Son. I personally think Alli alongside Dier is better as Alli is quicker, has more energy and can burst forward yet still get back ... I think he has more in his locker than Dembele but he is young so will be inconsistent

Meant to say Alli alongside Dier and Dembele further forward