Ramos' anti-tactics

[Hoowl]

Good Post. Jol often got slated for his lack of tactical nous so it's a nice change (i still think jol was the right man at the right time and did a fantastic job). After his first few games it's seemed like Ramos' tackical masterstroke was just to take a full back off for a striker and go to some kind of 343 formation. However, it's now clear to see he is far more astute than I initially thought. It's a really good point that we have made the top four sides we have played against look bad. Exciting times lie ahead!

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Wasn't jol here for the 5-1 at chelsea too?

That was under Glenda :wink:

 

[SpurSince57]

Anti-tactics is a fine way to describe it Locotoro. Better than all the alternatives too.

And it's very clear what you're saying so I don't understand the confusion.

Someone writes that the big sides don't always play bad against us and that you should see some of the matches from before Ramos' time... well duh!!!

Someone else points out Jol's 2-1 versus Chelsea last season, but no one seems to engage with the principal.

Ramos is streets ahead of any previous coach we've had. His preperation, attention to detail, ability to get the best out of players, to develop their technical skills as well as athleticism and stamina mark him out as special and that's before you even look at his game-plan and in-game tactics.

On the specific point you make though and in response to the poster who mentions the 2-1 last year. The difference between our win against Chelsea and our near win at the Bridge in the cup, plus the numerous near wins against Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool over his three years is that Jol often found ways to pose awkward questions of the opposition (last year in the cup against Chelsea was a prime example of this) and in doing so neutralised their threats, but when the opposition adapted he couldn't react. He had no plan B. Nor did he, as Ramos does, adapt first or quickly. And his anti-tactics were very much about playing to our strengths which is attacking and very little about stopping opponents playing to theirs, which can mean attacking but also a range of other things.

You're also right to point to his time at Sevilla and the problems he caused the big sides. Interestingly although Sevilla had a reputation as an exciting dynamic team away from home their matches involved few goals and frugal defences.

Anyway gotta go as my daughter's going to start screaming in a bit. Good article though, with good observations.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Jol's Plan A was frequently spot-on (if overly cautious at times), but he was less successful when it came to responding to changing circumstances. Perversely, one of the games in which he did do this well was in the home leg against Sevilla, resisting the temptation to panic after we went two down, weathering the storm and then making changes at half-time that got us back into the game.

I don't think it's any slight on Martin to say he's an inferior tactician to Juande. Apart from Mourinho and possibly SAF, I don't think any other manager/coach in the EPL comes close either.

And on the subject of our performances against the 'Big Four', it's worth pointing out that our away league record against them over the past three-and-a-half seasons is better than Liverpool's against Arsenal, Chelsea and United. I was amazed to hear the other week that Liverpool's draw against Chelsea was the first time they've got a point against any of the others.

 

[inegve]

Aint easy anti-tacting the Berbs&Keano combo.Liverpool won't be able to do it.

 

[stevenqoz]

The key thing for Ramos is fluidity. He expects all of his players to be flexible in terms of when, where and how they play. He has a plan which recognises the likelihood that change will probably be necessary not only by bringing on substitutes but also change within the formation initial lineup. He is a true squad man and he recognised that in the end we would need 14 players to win the game and this we did.

 

[worcestersauce]

Good Post Locotoro, there is a sense that to play tactics just to counter tactics is what small teams do but if you call it adaptability then thats ok and thats what top teams can do.

It does highlight his tactical nouse but I think the difference with Juande is that he also makes the players believe the tactics will work.

 

[DogsOfWar]

Excellent post.

Mourinho provided a great example of this last season when Berbatov and Lennon ran them ragged in the first game.
In the second game he set up his team to stop those two which meant the game was settled by an offensive competition between Drogba/SWP and Malbranque/Keane which Chelsea came out on top of.

That was the point when I realised we actually had a very good side, a top four team was having to alter it's tactics to stop us.
On Sunday Grant didn't and paid the price.

 

[SpurSince57]

On a detail point, a great many SCers, myself included, were highly dubious about the wisdom of playing the Hudd at CB, yet Juande went right ahead and did it. Being able to drop the Hudd or Zoko back to CB from CM if need be means we don't necessarily have to have a spare CB on the bench, which allows us a greater degree of flexibility in subs.

 

[walworthyid]

Excellent post!

We should all recall that Fergie changed his formation 5 times in the game at WHL.

Ramos is the most tactically aware and adept manager in the prem since Jose.

I remember an interview he gave while at Seville where he said that he has a system that can enable weaker players to beat superior players alot of the time, but that if he had the best players or players at least as good as those from the top teams his team would win everything.

Not very modest, but very true and I guess it is one of the main reasons he came to Spurs. He knows that we are one of the richest teams in the entire world and that given the right circumstances we can attract the best players in the world.

Juande will win us things, oh, he already has!!!

 

[TheChosenOne]

I think that sums it up pretty well. Jol's Plan A was frequently spot-on (if overly cautious at times), but he was less successful when it came to responding to changing circumstances. Perversely, one of the games in which he did do this well was in the home leg against Sevilla, resisting the temptation to panic after we went two down, weathering the storm and then making changes at half-time that got us back into the game.

I don't think it's any slight on Martin to say he's an inferior tactician to Juande. Apart from Mourinho and possibly SAF, I don't think any other manager/coach in the EPL comes close either.

And on the subject of our performances against the 'Big Four', it's worth pointing out that our away league record against them over the past three-and-a-half seasons is better than Liverpool's against Arsenal, Chelsea and United. I was amazed to hear the other week that Liverpool's draw against Chelsea was the first time they've got a point against any of the others.

T'was the Wigan,Watford and Sheffield type results that counted against us in the past, these are the games which the alleged Big Four usually win especially at home.

 

[robin09]

Well he's got another opportunity to strengthen his reputation in what I think is going to be a tricky tie at the Brum tomorrow.

 

[yanno]

Locotoro - you and I have duelled in the other thread, but I think this is an excellent post. And since you clearly understand these matters, my argument about Zoko is that he should play the role Poulsen plays for Sevilla, which is partly about filling in the holes when FBs like Dani Alves bomb forward.

I suspect when Ramos has his own squad next season, we will see even more horses for courses in terms of his team selection. Huddlestone is a great example. There will be matches when because of the way the opposition set up, it's possible to start him as a CB, where he can use his excellent passing skills to initiate attacks. There will also be occasions during matches when the opposition have dropped very deep and again Ramos may be able to put the Hud on at CB to pull the strings from there. Alternately, especially in Europe, Ramos may have Big Tom controlling the game from CM.

As I wrote in the thread below, Juande is streets ahead of most other coaches in terms of his ability to read the game, and gives Spurs a definite edge in almost every match.
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27769

Good post.

 

[tRiKS]

I think the opposite is true with Ramos.. Benitez is an anti-tactican. Jose was. Allerdyce is as is Megson et al.....Wenger, Ferguson and Ramos attempt to impose thier will on the other team. Ramos has shown that his consistent tactics and approach are effective in all departments and we happen to upset tactic of others by simply playing well with the ball and working hard off it. If Ramos adhered to the anti-tactic philosophy we would have seen a move away from 442 in a few of the games we've played. The fact we still played 442 against Chelsea's 451/433 in the final is the best example of how Ramos doesn't set up an anti-tactic.

 

[DC_Boy]

Good post LT and good insights

As I've been saying for months I trust JR more than any manager since Billy Nick - he knows what he's doing

I remember in for example the days of Hodd I would often slate his team selections and some people would say what gives you the right - Hod knows more than you - fair enough I'd say - but he still keeps ****ing it up doesn't he (and I loved Hod the player more than any other Spurs player ever) -

with JR whatever team he picks even if I'm baffled I say 'that's the best team'

 

[nipponyid]

Great post and insightful....after watching a lot of Italian football i can get what you are on about..upwards & onwards with the ramos revolution.

 

[tRiKS]

Great post and insightful....after watching a lot of Italian football i can get what you are on about..upwards & onwards with the ramos revolution.

No that a great a post. Factual regarding what Anti-tactics are but muddle and kurfuzzled thinking Ramos employs them.

 

[DogsOfWar]

On a detail point, a great many SCers, myself included, were highly dubious about the wisdom of playing the Hudd at CB, yet Juande went right ahead and did it. Being able to drop the Hudd or Zoko back to CB from CM if need be means we don't necessarily have to have a spare CB on the bench, which allows us a greater degree of flexibility in subs.

I think this point can even be extended to players' positions during a match.
If a CD such as King, Kaboul or Hudd brings the ball out of defence there is rarely someone to pick them up until they reach the oppositions back four.
If a CM such as Hudd or Zokora can drop back to cover then this gives another attacking option and a real flexibility/fluidity to our play.

Ditto the fullbacks. If Hutton, Gilberto or Chimbo join an attack, the opposite FB can stay back creating 3 at the back to cover their two strikers and a 5-2 going forward.

The beauty of this kind of play is that it is very difficult to stop using 'anti-tactics', the opposition players have to deal with too many ifs and buts to produce a simple solution.

 

[Langers]

Great post.

Your observations are spot on. Ramos seems to be able to strategically out fox the best of them. I’ve been really impressed with the changes he makes during the game as the players seem to adapt almost instantly. The communication and planning to have the players that well drilled is credit to the players and coaching staff.

In the past tactical changes during a game seemed to cause confusion, and would often be a hindrance.

I’m not sure there is such a thing as anti-tactics, I would have thought negative and positive tactics, are simply tactics. But that’s just me pedantic.

 

[striebs]

We beat the scum and chelsea because we had Ledders back + the addition of Woodgate

We needed King and Woodgate to be in with a shout against Chelsea .

Even so , if we had tried to have played them on their terms with the personel they have I think we would have been unsuccessful .


Ramos very much played a spoiling game , just as teams have against us .

Prime example was taking attacking threat Malbranque off and leaving Zokora the spoiler on .

This substitution bemused me , presumably the mere act of a less than obvious substitution makes opposition coaches worry what Ramos is up to .

 

[Chaplain]

No that a great a post. Factual regarding what Anti-tactics are but muddle and kurfuzzled thinking Ramos employs them.

I think you've misunderstood them tbh - he's not saying we use "anti-tactics" as that we defend and nullify the other team and grind a win, like Mourinho or even Benitez, as you've said yourself, but that he adapts his tactics and team selection to his opposition to play to their weaknesses and nullify their strengths while playing to our strengths.