New Stadium Details And Discussions

[davidmatzdorf]

True but even the fact that Multiplex had huge compensation to pay when it delivered Wembley stadium almost 2 years late (so much £'s that Multiplex in effect went bust ), the stadium was still delivered late.....so we still need a contingency plan or thought process even if we get compensated

Yes, the problem with charging damages for late completion is that they notoriously don't work. They don't act as an effective incentive. On the minority of occasions when the contractor doesn't drag out a dispute about the damages until you arrive at a commercial settlement just to bring matters to a conclusion, you eventually get to deduct your your money from the final payment. The damages are calculated according to the anticipated costs to the client of the late completion.

What never, ever happens is that the contractor says "I'd better finish that building on time or I'll lose money" and accelerates work on site. They always assume they can squirm out from under the damages through a commercial negotiation and they routinely tell porkies about progress on site, when it's plain to the project manager that the job is running weeks/months behind schedule.

 

[worcestersauce]

Yes, the problem with charging damages for late completion is that they notoriously don't work. They don't act as an effective incentive. On the minority of occasions when the contractor doesn't drag out a dispute about the damages until you arrive at a commercial settlement just to bring matters to a conclusion, you eventually get to deduct your your money from the final payment. The damages are calculated according to the anticipated costs to the client of the late completion.

What never, ever happens is that the contractor says "I'd better finish that building on time or I'll lose money" and accelerates work on site. They always assume they can squirm out from under the damages through a commercial negotiation and they routinely tell porkies about progress on site, when it's plain to the project manager that the job is running weeks/months behind schedule.

So what d'ya reckon david' shall make them an offer they can't refuse, "either the work or you will be finished by June 2018, capiche".

 

[markiespurs]

How tight are the time tables on builds in general and on builds like this?

Presumably contractors negotiate a bit of leeway in the schedule for any unforeseen circumstances that might occur?

 

[davidmatzdorf]

How tight are the time tables on builds in general and on builds like this?

Presumably contractors negotiate a bit of leeway in the schedule for any unforeseen circumstances that might occur?

Generally not, in a normal tendering market. They're so intent upon competing to get the contract that they pare away at the build period (every week on site has fixed costs) past all logic, in order to get the tender down and win the job - as I implied above, on the assumption that they will wiggle out of damages for late completion.

At present, there is a shedload of work about and a shortage of skilled operatives, so contractors may be taking a more realistic approach to build periods, because they know they'll have difficulty retaining workers and they can afford to beef up the profit margin because there are a lot of tenders to choose from. But I doubt it. Habits die hard.

 

[dazzle]

My understanding was that Spurs are effectively acting as the project manager and as such, we are responsible for overseeing subcontractors and timelines. Although we may have penalty clauses for individual suppliers (e.g. if the if the steel turns up late), we won't have 1 contractor from which we can get large payments if the project runs late.

Is that right, or was that arrangement just for the groundworks?

 

[Graysonti]

My understanding was that Spurs are effectively acting as the project manager and as such, we are responsible for overseeing subcontractors and timelines. Although we may have penalty clauses for individual suppliers (e.g. if the if the steel turns up late), we won't have 1 contractor from which we can get large payments if the project runs late.

Is that right, or was that arrangement just for the groundworks?

Main contractor is Mace

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Main contractor is Mace

Contract manager is Mace. Not the same thing. Mace will be coordinating everything, the but the contracts for specific trades and packages will be directly between THFC's development company and the contractors.

I would think, as we are using a contract management form of procurement, that there will not only be damages (not "penalties", they're illegal) for late completion, but there will be financial incentives to complete specific phases early.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

.

What never, ever happens is that the contractor says "I'd better finish that building on time or I'll lose money" and accelerates work on site. They always assume they can squirm out from under the damages through a commercial negotiation and they routinely tell porkies about progress on site, when it's plain to the project manager that the job is running weeks/months behind schedule.

They should be insured for these types of occurrences. It's the insurers the customers would end up dealing with.

 

[Spursidol]

They should be insured for these types of occurrences. It's the insurers the customers would end up dealing with.

So would you want to insure a builder against the possibility (obviously a very remote chance !) he might finish a job late........

 

[Adam456]

With us moving to Wembley for a season, what happens if we don't finish the stadium on time? We must have some contingency plans because shit happens.

One of my mates is one of the owners. I won't say it to his face but the fact that they allowed that to happen just shows what a corner shop of a club they were (even if it seems like a nice idea)

 

[Spurs in Belgium]

I'll have a tear in my eye during my last game at WHL

Couldn't give a s*** about people disliking my posts, but what sort of Tottenham fan would disagree with this (Pereybere)!

 

[L.A. Yiddo]

Couldn't give a s*** about people disliking my posts, but what sort of Tottenham fan would disagree with this (Pereybere)!

There are some bizarre accounts on here that have no postings but do nothing but hand out neg reps. That's one of them.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

So would you want to insure a builder against the possibility (obviously a very remote chance !) he might finish a job late........

I work for an insurer. ....

 

[davidmatzdorf]

They should be insured for these types of occurrences. It's the insurers the customers would end up dealing with.

Insurance for that risk has always been unavailable. I would suggest that this is because the risk is so high that the premium would be farcically large and no one would opt for the insurance. There's no market for it at a realistic price.

The whole construction industry lives in something of a fug of self-delusion on two issues: 1) completion of construction on time and 2) rectification of defects following completion. I have been known, from time to time, to give iconoclastic lectures and training sessions on these topics... . Everyone nods enthusiastically and then goes back to work and ignores everything I said.

 

[Spursidol]

I work for an insurer. ....

Excellent. I'd love to get insurance to get our contractors to stop jobs over-running. Think they need to pay out as compensation maybe £10k per week per £250k of job size.....and incidence of overrunning is about 70%, with overruns of 4 weeks about 50% incidence, overruns of 8 weeks about 15% incidence.

I'd sure your underwriters could put together a brief proposal to the contractors.

Wed just need to 'stress test' the insurers balance sheet (and its reinsurers to ensure they could sustain a 1,0000% claims : premium ratio

 

[acky99]

With us moving to Wembley for a season, what happens if we don't finish the stadium on time? We must have some contingency plans because shit happens.

I personally think that it is a very big ask for us to be only out for one season my reasons are as follows,
The demolition of WHL will be time consuming, you then have to clear the oversite, you then have to prepare
for piling, the piling at the "kop" end is extreme, this is for the sliding pitch.Then the building of the last third of the stadium,then the roof, then the internals, then the pitch has to be ready, then all the safety measures in preparation for match day, I could go on, you cannot flood a site like this with labour as they will be getting in each others way.
I think we will be out for 18 months minimum! it is just too much to do in a year.
I hope I am proved wrong, I think it will be January 2019 when we move back in.

 

[sideways]

I personally think that it is a very big ask for us to be only out for one season my reasons are as follows,
The demolition of WHL will be time consuming, you then have to clear the oversite, you then have to prepare
for piling, the piling at the "kop" end is extreme, this is for the sliding pitch.Then the building of the last third of the stadium,then the roof, then the internals, then the pitch has to be ready, then all the safety measures in preparation for match day, I could go on, you cannot flood a site like this with labour as they will be getting in each others way.
I think we will be out for 18 months minimum! it is just too much to do in a year.
I hope I am proved wrong, I think it will be January 2019 when we move back in.

Different project overall, but Bilbao took down a stand and laid a pitch in 3 months, and then built the remaining 1/3 of their stadium to be open in one season. Why would ours be so different? Yes we have the sliding pitch, but the south stand is a simpler design to offset that. We would also have uninterrupted 7 day working with the club playing elsewhere as opposed to shutting down to accommodate 25ish match days.

 

[acky99]

Different project overall, but Bilbao took down a stand and laid a pitch in 3 months, and then built the remaining 1/3 of their stadium to be open in one season. Why would ours be so different? Yes we have the sliding pitch, but the south stand is a simpler design to offset that. We would also have uninterrupted 7 day working with the club playing elsewhere as opposed to shutting down to accommodate 25ish match days.

Yes Bilbao, may have done that, but have you seen how many piles are under the sliding pitch? and as you said they took a stand down and laid the pitch, we cannot do that because of the 3 sections of the pitch, plus we have to knock down most of the ground to accommodate our pitch. I can see us installing the NFL astro pitch afterwards but little else can be done after the stadium opens other than decoration.

 

[Lilbaz]

Yes Bilbao, may have done that, but have you seen how many piles are under the sliding pitch? and as you said they took a stand down and laid the pitch, we cannot do that because of the 3 sections of the pitch, plus we have to knock down most of the ground to accommodate our pitch. I can see us installing the NFL astro pitch afterwards but little else can be done after the stadium opens other than decoration.

Wont the kop stand be easier to build though? Single tier, no boxes etc...

Not sure why the club would lie about it.

 

[acky99]

Wont the kop stand be easier to build though? Single tier, no boxes etc...

Not sure why the club would lie about it.

Theoretically it would be easier to build as it only has 2 supports, but the amount of piles they have to put underneath it,
for the sliding pitch is a lot of work the whole area has to be levelled, so they can pile, hence the clearance of the whole area is required, as you can see with the parts that are being piled at the moment.
It is only my opinion, no other recent stadium build can be compared to ours, we have too many moving parts.