Missing Mason...

[Bus-Conductor]

No I don't. I think the reason our FBs can help join the attack, which is vital when our wide-strikers cut inside, is because of Dier at DM who can and does drop back to make almost a back three at times.

Neither Mason nor Bentaleb can do that.

But Walker is seeing 30% less of the ball this season than he did last season. Fact. I haven't checked Rose, but I'm pretty sure it's similar for him too.

How does that support your theory ?

I'm not saying Dier is redundant for every occasion but do you really think we need a third CB at home to Sunderland ?

 

[Donki]

But Walker is seeing 30% less of the ball this season than he did last season. Fact. I haven't checked Rose, but I'm pretty sure it's similar for him too.

How does that support your theory ?

I'm not saying Dier is redundant for every occasion but do you really think we need a third CB at home to Sunderland ?

While both full backs maybe seeing less of the ball, I would never doubt your stats, does it say if they have more of the ball in attacking areas, or if they are more advanced on the pitch for more of time, even without the ball? I don't know for a fact if they do but I would suspect they are, we are able to open team up better and easier than we were last year where it looked like we had no space or room to move.

Is Dier needed all the time at DM, probably not but against Sunderland at home we still managed to net 4, and that was with thier keeper making some good saves and Lloris letting in a soft one. So while not required we won, and won easily.

Apart from our points tally and the fact we are only 5 points from the top of the table the most impressive thing for me this season has been our goal difference, +20 at this moment in time, with Dier playing as a DM for most of the games. Again I would suggest that having Dier in there doesn't stiffle us going forward as much as some make it out to be.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

While both full backs maybe seeing less of the ball, I would never doubt your stats, does it say if they have more of the ball in attacking areas, or if they are more advanced on the pitch for more of time, even without the ball? I don't know for a fact if they do but I would suspect they are, we are able to open team up better and easier than we were last year where it looked like we had no space or room to move.

Is Dier needed all the time at DM, probably not but against Sunderland at home we still managed to net 4, and that was with thier keeper making some good saves and Lloris letting in a soft one. So while not required we won, and won easily.

Apart from our points tally and the fact we are only 5 points from the top of the table the most impressive thing for me this season has been our goal difference, +20 at this moment in time, with Dier playing as a DM for most of the games. Again I would suggest that having Dier in there doesn't stiffle us going forward as much as some make it out to be.

For the record, per 90 minute metric, on Squawka, Walker has an overall attack score (which I guess is an amalgamation of the various attacking algorithms) this season of 3.02, last season was 3.33. Key passes this season 0.75, last season 0.76, Chances created this season 0.80, last season 0.76, assists this season 0.05, last season 0, Take ons this season 0.50, last season 0.96. Not much difference in attacking productivity.

 

[Donki]

For the record, per 90 minute metric, on Squawka, Walker has an overall attack score (which I guess is an amalgamation of the various attacking algorithms) this season of 3.02, last season was 3.33. Key passes this season 0.75, last season 0.76, Chances created this season 0.80, last season 0.76, assists this season 0.05, last season 0, Take ons this season 0.50, last season 0.96. Not much difference in attacking productivity.

What about Rose? Actually how does he compare to our other FBs?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What about Rose? Actually how does he compare to our other FBs?

Rose overall attack score this season 7.61, last season 10.76. Per 90 min Successful passes this season 31.38, last season 31.90. Key passes this season 0.64, last season 0.87. Chances created this season 0.83, last season 1.03. Assists this season 0.18, last season 0.15.

So no attacking productivity improvement and in most areas (bar a 0.03 per 90 min improvement in assists) he was producing more last season than this.

 

[Donki]

Rose overall attack score this season 7.61, last season 10.76. Per 90 min Successful passes this season 31.38, last season 31.90. Key passes this season 0.64, last season 0.87. Chances created this season 0.83, last season 1.03. Assists this season 0.18, last season 0.15.

So no attacking productivity improvement and in most areas (bar a 0.03 per 90 min improvement in assists) he was producing more last season than this.

So with both FBs down on last season, and from what we are seeing on the pitch we are playing much more through the middle, I am going to keep an eye on both to see what they do off the ball and IF they are creating space on a regular basis. We are looking much better as an attacking unit this season than the last few so TBH I'm not that bothered.

 

[Lou3000]

I think Poch misses Mason too. If there is one thing I think I have figured out about Poch is that he loves an "all-rounder." Carroll is being selected because he's Mason-lite. Mason and Carroll aren't better than anyone on the team in any single discipline, but they're the jack of all trades and have a good eye for a forward pass.

But Dembele + Dier is the most consistent pairing in the premier league. So, even with Mason back, he's going to be second behind Dembele or Alli next to Dier.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I think Poch misses Mason too. If there is one thing I think I have figured out about Poch is that he loves an "all-rounder." Carroll is being selected because he's Mason-lite. Mason and Carroll aren't better than anyone on the team in any single discipline, but they're the jack of all trades and have a good eye for a forward pass.

But Dembele + Dier is the most consistent pairing in the premier league. So, even with Mason back, he's going to be second behind Dembele or Alli next to Dier.

I agree with every word about Mason. Well said mate

Re the bold bit. Do you mean statistically? I only ask because I'd say, and maybe a few others would say, too, that Dier & Alli was a better pairing? It was what earned both of them International call ups, and it was the talk of the footballing world.

Alli was certainly a better player back there, he had more opportunity to come from deep, and Dembele (in my opinion) played better as part of the 3. I'm still baffled as to why Poch changed that pairing

 

[TheVoiceofReason]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but in terms of our starting 11, i really dont think we miss him all that much.

 

[Lou3000]

I agree with every word about Mason. Well said mate

Re the bold bit. Do you mean statistically? I only ask because I'd say, and maybe a few others would say, too, that Dier & Alli was a better pairing? It was what earned both of them International call ups, and it was the talk of the footballing world.

Alli was certainly a better player back there, he had more opportunity to come from deep, and Dembele (in my opinion) played better as part of the 3. I'm still baffled as to why Poch changed that pairing

I agree that the Dier + Dembele + Alli combo is the most potent, but Alli shows his age from time to time and can't remember what position he's playing. Dier and Dembele in the lineup is when we're our best, I agree that doesn't always mean them sitting next to each other

 

[Lighty64]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but in terms of our starting 11, i really dont think we miss him all that much.

I think he is missed even if it means bringing him on to freshen it up.

 

[Lighty64]

I agree that the Dier + Dembele + Alli combo is the most potent, but Alli shows his age from time to time and can't remember what position he's playing. Dier and Dembele in the lineup is when we're our best, I agree that doesn't always mean them sitting next to each other

I did a long break down on page 2, and it was quite long so won't repost that with all the info in an update, but in the league our best midfield combos after the Sunderland match are

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P5 - W4 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0

 

[james Stock]

I think Poch changed the approach because he feels that one of the two mids needs to be a good accurate passer of the ball, so he put Carroll in the spot Mason would occupy. Alli is a goal threat but his first touch is not the best and like Dier he is not a great passer.

 

[philip]

For the record, per 90 minute metric, on Squawka, Walker has an overall attack score (which I guess is an amalgamation of the various attacking algorithms) this season of 3.02, last season was 3.33. Key passes this season 0.75, last season 0.76, Chances created this season 0.80, last season 0.76, assists this season 0.05, last season 0, Take ons this season 0.50, last season 0.96. Not much difference in attacking productivity.

I'm not a statto like you are, but surely if his attacking stats are similar to last year but he's seeing less of the ball, it means he's seeing less of it in defence - ie our FBs aren't having to defend as much as last year.

Surely that would indicate that the system is better than last year and back up what I said?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm not a statto like you are, but surely if his attacking stats are similar to last year but he's seeing less of the ball, it means he's seeing less of it in defence - ie our FBs aren't having to defend as much as last year.

Surely that would indicate that the system is better than last year and back up what I said?

I'm not as willing to trust human emotion as you, I like to see if unbiased facts support or contradict an argument. He's making slightly more tackles, slightly more interceptions and slightly more clearances, the same amount of blocks, marginally more errors leading to goals this season. That doesn't suggest to me he's having to defend less.

What I would say, and to @Donki to is this. What my eyes tell me, and the stats possibly confirm, is pretty much that Walker is contributing slightly less offensively in terms of quantity and slightly more defensively in terms of quantity. So pretty much the opposite of what you and Donki were saying.

We are actually having slightly less of the football this season than we did last season, ergo, the opposition are having more, ergo, we are having to defend marginally more, not less. All marginal though, but more none the less. But what we are doing is defending better in other, key, areas of the pitch such as from the front four and the CB2.

So back to the conundrum of our CM2 and what is the best combination?

I think Dier clearly brings some good, consistent defensive solidity to the team at times. As does Dembele. But Neither Dier nor Dembele make themselves available to receive the ball, pass the ball or - importantly for our system IMO - make anywhere near as many forward (or vertical as Poch likes to say) passes (I've put these stats/facts on here previously I'm not going to type them all out again but if you want check them yourself somewhere like squawka or whoscored).

IMO, we have to take into consideration the opposition, the venue etc and select the combination we think represents the best balance of skills, the best balance of risk/reward etc.

I think we are incredibly lucky to have the choices we have right now. All have good attributes, all work hard but all offer variety. It's about getting the right blend in that front 6.

 

[Donki]

I'm not as willing to trust human emotion as you, I like to see if unbiased facts support or contradict an argument. He's making slightly more tackles, slightly more interceptions and slightly more clearances, the same amount of blocks, marginally more errors leading to goals this season. That doesn't suggest to me he's having to defend less.

What I would say, and to @Donki to is this. What my eyes tell me, and the stats possibly confirm, is pretty much that Walker is contributing slightly less offensively in terms of quantity and slightly more defensively in terms of quantity. So pretty much the opposite of what you and Donki were saying.

We are actually having slightly less of the football this season than we did last season, ergo, the opposition are having more, ergo, we are having to defend marginally more, not less. All marginal though, but more none the less. But what we are doing is defending better in other, key, areas of the pitch such as from the front four and the CB2.

So back to the conundrum of our CM2 and what is the best combination?

I think Dier clearly brings some good, consistent defensive solidity to the team at times. As does Dembele. But Neither Dier nor Dembele make themselves available to receive the ball, pass the ball or - importantly for our system IMO - make anywhere near as many forward (or vertical as Poch likes to say) passes (I've put these stats/facts on here previously I'm not going to type them all out again but if you want check them yourself somewhere like squawka or whoscored).

IMO, we have to take into consideration the opposition, the venue etc and select the combination we think represents the best balance of skills, the best balance of risk/reward etc.

I think we are incredibly lucky to have the choices we have right now. All have good attributes, all work hard but all offer variety. It's about getting the right blend in that front 6.

Totally agree that I think we have a great mix of midfielders, and thats even with Mason and Bentaleb still out. I think Poch does well to pick what he thinks can best compete with the opposition. I can see why he likes CArroll the kid never hids and shows for the ball continually, trying to get the ball moving forward.

Is there any stat that can show work off the ball? I didn't say anywhere that Walker was contributing more offensively than last season in fact I said he was down on last season, your stats clearly show thus far this season he hasn't. What I will be looking out for is what they are doing without the ball, Walker is in the top 5 of most sprints made this season so he is putting a shift in, unless those sprints are him heading off down the tunnel.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Totally agree that I think we have a great mix of midfielders, and thats even with Mason and Bentaleb still out. I think Poch does well to pick what he thinks can best compete with the opposition. I can see why he likes CArroll the kid never hids and shows for the ball continually, trying to get the ball moving forward.

Is there any stat that can show work off the ball? I didn't say anywhere that Walker was contributing more offensively than last season in fact I said he was down on last season, your stats clearly show thus far this season he hasn't. What I will be looking out for is what they are doing without the ball, Walker is in the top 5 of most sprints made this season so he is putting a shift in, unless those sprints are him heading off down the tunnel.

Where did you get the sprints stat ?

 

[Donki]

Where did you get the sprints stat ?

Was from a report in the Standard by Collomosse, hes qouting the EA Sports’ Player Performance Index data. Walker comes fifth in the league so far, only Alli has made more for us.

 

[ClintEastwould]

I did a long break down on page 2, and it was quite long so won't repost that with all the info in an update, but in the league our best midfield combos after the Sunderland match are

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P5 - W4 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0

Dier and Alli statistically the best but i have not seen us dominate and control(with eye pleasing aesthetics to boot) so many consecutive matches since the days of ratboy as we have seen with Carrol's inclusion in the side. I think we have struggled not becausem of this but because of a drop-off in terms pressing and energy notably from Kane. Not to mention teams starting to sit deeper and deeper. We obviously need more invention in the final third but i dont believe either Mason or Bentaleb will make any dramatic difference. It has to come from our forwads who are looking jaded and not meeting our excellent defence halfway to produce the results our performances merit. I think we have been playing some of our best football in years. Our forwards are just lacking that extra bit of energy and incision.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Dier and Alli statistically the best but i have not seen us dominate and control(with eye pleasing aesthetics to boot) so many consecutive matches since the days of ratboy as we have seen with Carrol's inclusion in the side. I think we have struggled not becausem of this but because of a drop-off in terms pressing and energy notably from Kane. Not to mention teams starting to sit deeper and deeper. We obviously need more invention in the final third but i dont believe either Mason or Bentaleb will make any dramatic difference. It has to come from our forwads who are looking jaded and not meeting our excellent defence halfway to produce the results our performances merit. I think we have been playing some of our best football in years. Our forwards are just lacking that extra bit of energy and incision.

We have players like Chadli, Onomah, Pritchard and Oduwa as well as Son who can provide competition and rotation for the forward players.

Putting Mason or Bentaleb isn't going to improve the IQ of any of our forward players but these two both se and recycle more ball, they do it more quickly than the likes of Dier, Dembele and Alli and the pass forwards more. So, in other words, may not improve the IQ of the attacking players but could possibly aid quicker forward transition, putting the forward players into situations where they are more often attacking fewer and less well set/prepared defences.

Dembele is hard working, tenacious, robust and hard to knock off the ball but invariably misses opportunities to speed up transition because he wants to dwell on the ball, Dier doesn't dwell but he's not a quick thinking, 360 degree picture in his head, risk taker, incisive or forward passer either.