Mental weakness at Spurs

[hellava_tough]

A lot has been made of the players' mental weakness over the last couple of weeks, not least by our manager.

This isn't a new thing, however, as over the last 20-odd years Tottenham Hotspur have also had a reputation for being a bit soft; for "always letting you down" as I think Roy Keane once said.

So this is a thread to discuss the club's mentality.

Is there a systemic problem at the club? How does it manifest itself? Who's to blame? If it does exist, how do we change it?

 

[Dr Know]

Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??

 

[dontcallme]

Growing up it felt like Spurs were truly one of the top clubs in England. My first memory is 1991 where we won our 8th FA Cup, the most at that time when people really cared about it. We also had Gazza and Linekar who were huge stars coming off 1990 World Cup, though obviously Linekar was already huge.

Many of the fans at the game have seen some great honours won and some great players, expectations are huge.

I don't look at the fans as negatively as some on here. Truly talented but flawed players like Ginola and Berbatov can become fan favourites as can players with lower ability levels but always put everything into the game such as Freund.

I really believe this factor should be considered when buying players. Buying technically good players who appear to disappear when the going gets tough and don't have the ability of a true top player results in them being turned on.

I think the players at Spurs need to have a big personality to make it at Spurs. Redknapp identified this, as did Jol but their squads were ripped apart by their successor and while we were happy with the higher quality players we didn't actually progress as a club.

So we can blame the fans if we like but that doesn't solve the issue. The best way past it is to start looking into the characters of the players as a much higher factor when delving into the transfer market.

You've got to buy players who are the right fit and that isn't just about formation.

 

[Darrkespur]

Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??

I wonder if there's a bit of truth to this. I only go to the Lane a couple of times a season but I was at the Newcastle game last week and was amazed how quiet and negative the atmosphere was - as if the stadium was waiting for the team to impress them rather than getting behind them. I also go to some Swansea games as it's my hometown and the difference is remarkable - the Swans fans are always singing, have songs for every player and make far more noise.

I think having a good supportive atmosphere at your home ground can make a huge difference - just look at the results Stoke have at home compared to away. There does seem to be an attitude at WHL (not so much away) that it's up to the team to play well and the crowd will applaud them when they do - you'd have to think it would have an effect on the players.

 

[dontcallme]

I wonder if there's a bit of truth to this. I only go to the Lane a couple of times a season but I was at the Newcastle game last week and was amazed how quiet and negative the atmosphere was - as if the stadium was waiting for the team to impress them rather than getting behind them. I also go to some Swansea games as it's my hometown and the difference is remarkable - the Swans fans are always singing, have songs for every player and make far more noise.

I think having a good supportive atmosphere at your home ground can make a huge difference - just look at the results Stoke have at home compared to away. There does seem to be an attitude at WHL (not so much away) that it's up to the team to play well and the crowd will applaud them when they do - you'd have to think it would have an effect on the players.

Good home atmosphere is important, but if people aren't happy you need to look into why rather than just label them as bad people.

We pay the 2nd highest ticket prices in the league and are nowhere near competing for honours. The quality of football isn't good and there are few players that the fans really like. It was great seeing Kane get support in the EL league when he scored and went in goal.

Our net spend is nothing which personally I don't have a problem with but the fans have to be wondering where the money is going as they are paying a lot of money.

 

[Nocando]

I wonder if there's a bit of truth to this. I only go to the Lane a couple of times a season but I was at the Newcastle game last week and was amazed how quiet and negative the atmosphere was - as if the stadium was waiting for the team to impress them rather than getting behind them. I also go to some Swansea games as it's my hometown and the difference is remarkable - the Swans fans are always singing, have songs for every player and make far more noise.

I think having a good supportive atmosphere at your home ground can make a huge difference - just look at the results Stoke have at home compared to away. There does seem to be an attitude at WHL (not so much away) that it's up to the team to play well and the crowd will applaud them when they do - you'd have to think it would have an effect on the players.

Bang on. Anyone who ignores the impact of a mass groan when the ball gets passed backwards, and then subsequently hoofed forward aimlessly is in complete denial of the effect the supporters have on the players. Anyone who has played in front of a crowd understands the effect pressure, support or abuse has on a situation.

There's a reason why the great Utd team of the 90's, and to a lesser extent Wenger's 00's team, on the whole, never panicked and continued to play their game right up to the final whistle, even when losing. That was due in large parts to the confidence from the supporters and the faith they had in getting a result. Rather than feeling pressure to lump the ball forward they took their time and carried out their game plan and that's part of the reason why they were so successful. The players had belief and so did the supporters.

We have the polar opposite and to the worst degree possible. In fact dare I say I think we are possibly the worst for getting on players, teams and managers backs at crucial times. And it's no good pointing the finger at someone else or johnny come latelys or in frequent fans, this problem goes right through the heart of the vast majority of fans who attend.

Our mental problem is the players and fans lack belief, it's a self fulfilling prophecy deeply ingrained within the club.

 

[Darrkespur]

Good home atmosphere is important, but if people aren't happy you need to look into why rather than just label them as bad people.

We pay the 2nd highest ticket prices in the league and are nowhere near competing for honours. The quality of football isn't good and there are few players that the fans really like. It was great seeing Kane get support in the EL league when he scored and went in goal.

Our net spend is nothing which personally I don't have a problem with but the fans have to be wondering where the money is going as they are paying a lot of money.

Hang on a second, I never said they were bad people! I think it's a combination of the football we expect and that there a few holidaymakers in the crowd, but also just the general culture of the fans at games. We don't have to be entirely happy with the way our club does it's business, but we're called supporters for a reason - if there was some kind of mass movement to get behind the team more vocally at home matches I'm sure there would be a benefit to the performances on the pitch.

 

[scat1620]

Bang on. Anyone who ignores the impact of a mass groan when the ball gets passed backwards, and then subsequently hoofed forward aimlessly is in complete denial of the effect the supporters have on the players. Anyone who has played in front of a crowd understands the effect pressure, support or abuse has on a situation.

There's a reason why the great Utd team of the 90's, and to a lesser extent Wenger's 00's team, on the whole, never panicked and continued to play their game right up to the final whistle, even when losing. That was due in large parts to the confidence from the supporters and the faith they had in getting a result. Rather than feeling pressure to lump the ball forward they took their time and carried out their game plan and that's part of the reason why they were so successful. The players had belief and so did the supporters.

We have the polar opposite and to the worst degree possible. In fact dare I say I think we are possibly the worst for getting on players, teams and managers backs at crucial times. And it's no good pointing the finger at someone else or johnny come latelys or in frequent fans, this problem goes right through the heart of the vast majority of fans who attend.

Our mental problem is the players and fans lack belief, it's a self fulfilling prophecy deeply ingrained within the club.

Would make all the difference if the players tended to start games on the front foot, i.e. within the first few minutes, someone puts in a crunching tackle or going on a marauding run. At the beginning of most halves (1st and 2nd) our players have often looked like they've just rolled out of bed in recent years.

 

[Nocando]

Would make all the difference if the players tended to start games on the front foot, i.e. within the first few minutes, someone puts in a crunching tackle or going on a marauding run. At the beginning of most halves (1st and 2nd) our players have often looked like they've just rolled out of bed in recent years.

That just not the point though and that's exactly what I mean when I refer to the self fulfilling prophecy. We need to accept our role and not judge our response from what is or isn't being delivered on the pitch. As I said previously Man Utd created a situation of belief which the fans bought into and even if they weren't performing they did what they needed to in order to support (in both senses) the team. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this and accept they should do more (and I'm calling people out here) are part of the problem.

If I had my way I'd throw out the moaning fuckers and replace them with fans who were prepared to support the team, even if it was for free. I don't give a fuck how much they've spent, how long they've supported the club, how far they travel, or what their circumstances are, they're the problem and should take their negative shit elsewhere.

 

[shelfboy68]

Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??

Nothing to do with fans the fans mentality at spurs,which is stronger than anyone else with having to put up with the shit we do.
Using fans or pitches as an excuse for the problems at the club are weak excuses so please next.

 

[Dr Know]

Nothing to do with fans the fans mentality at spurs,which is stronger than anyone else with having to put up with the shit we do.
Using fans or pitches as an excuse for the problems at the club are weak excuses so please next.

I said maybe because I don't have the answer but seeing as you do please enlighten us

 

[Geyzer Soze]

I really really deeply disagree with the fans being the problem mentality. Although as I've mentioned a few times I was at the Newcastle game & it was awful I'll give you

I was also at the Lyon away game, the fans were fantastic, it was freezing cold, snow & sleet, fans had been attacked the night before ... we were penned in for an hour after the game in the wet & snow

1 player (Holtby) came over. That was a bit shit.

 

[sim0n]

revolving door with managers does not lend itself to stability/strength,.... mental or otherwise...

 

[Nocando]

I can only assume the people who think the fans don't create a negative mental environment are in some way trying to justify their own (lack of) actions.

It's quite obvious (and there are probably studies on this - not that they're needed it's stating the bleeding obvious) that the positive role of a supporter adds to the performance of the team. 100% of clubs do various initiatives (even stoke did it with Neil Baldwin) to improve the positivity at their club both internally and externally, and this extends to all sports. Simply saying you don't believe it is absolute horseshit, because it's so obvious and is something clubs and teams spend so much resources on trying to improve.

I think the debate manifests itself with people with the denial mentality blaming everyone else but themselves (because they pay their money) being on one side and the rest who understand the role they play in improving performances being on the other.

 

[Dirty Ewok]

There is something to be said for the supporters changing, when you are at WHL i noticed there certainly is a different atmosphere.....people want to be entertained OR they are waiting for the other shoe to drop and something horrible to happen. It leads to a very quiet uneasy atmosphere.

However on the pitch we do seem to be missing something in terms of attitude.

We do a solid job of identifying talent; we can find genuinely talented technical players or players who are tremendous athletes but we are very lacking at players who are mentally tough.

Part of this is likely down to our scouting (looking around football in general it's not just us), scouts get paid to go find extremely talented players who can develop into a high end player.

Thing is....if you are aiming your scouts to find talented technical players the scouts tend to ignore the player who just grinds away and works his ass off. They aren't flashy, they tend to not do anything at an outstanding level and they tend to only garner attention from their Manager, teammates and maybe the supporters who see the player EVERY week for an extended period of time. They just don't hit on the radar of a scout who is passing through for a short period of time.

I think we could really benefit from getting a player who is a b****** on the pitch, the type of player who can drive the others on the pitch forward when things aren't going well. But i think to find a player like this.....you have to adjust the way you scout and recruit otherwise (in many cases though not all) you will pass over a player who is mentally strong but technically lesser.

 

[Mullers]

I think it's been lot longer than 20 years. Carrick summed it up best. At Man Utd you're expected to win every game at Spurs you're not. Who is to blame? The board, the manager, the players.

 

[SlunkSoma]

Could it be a self-fulfilling prophecy in so much as the players expect to fail, and teams playing us know they need to be tougher thus having a two fold effect?
Also, I'll ask the question (and I may expand on this for a blg post somewhere), but is the so called 'Tottenham Way' a fallacy, borne of a rose-tinted particular era but not relevant or translatable to now? Our past success is often credited to Greaves, or Hoddle or Villa, but those eras contained tough players, MacKay, Roberts, Perryman. Have we taken this insistence on exciting expansive football too far and over looked the fact that whatever is done on the field needs to be rooted into solidity and pragmatism as oppose to the mercurial?

 

[Stavrogin]

I think it's been lot longer than 20 years. Carrick summed it up best. At Man Utd you're expected to win every game at Spurs you're not. Who is to blame? The board, the manager, the players.

If someone expected us to win every game, they'd be completely mad.

If Man United (in Ferguson's era) didn't expect to win every game, they'd be showing a lack of ambition.

You have to be able to win every game before you can expect to win every game!

 

[SlunkSoma]

There is something to be said for the supporters changing, when you are at WHL i noticed there certainly is a different atmosphere.....people want to be entertained OR they are waiting for the other shoe to drop and something horrible to happen. It leads to a very quiet uneasy atmosphere.

However on the pitch we do seem to be missing something in terms of attitude.

We do a solid job of identifying talent; we can find genuinely talented technical players or players who are tremendous athletes but we are very lacking at players who are mentally tough.

Part of this is likely down to our scouting (looking around football in general it's not just us), scouts get paid to go find extremely talented players who can develop into a high end player.

Thing is....if you are aiming your scouts to find talented technical players the scouts tend to ignore the player who just grinds away and works his ass off. They aren't flashy, they tend to not do anything at an outstanding level and they tend to only garner attention from their Manager, teammates and maybe the supporters who see the player EVERY week for an extended period of time. They just don't hit on the radar of a scout who is passing through for a short period of time.

I think we could really benefit from getting a player who is a b****** on the pitch, the type of player who can drive the others on the pitch forward when things aren't going well. But i think to find a player like this.....you have to adjust the way you scout and recruit otherwise (in many cases though not all) you will pass over a player who is mentally strong but technically lesser.

On the argument for atmosphere, barring the extreme I think players switch off from the crowd. I think it's humanly impossible to operate with 40,000 people baring down on you - the only way to do so is to ignore it.

 

[Dirty Ewok]

On the argument for atmosphere, barring the extreme I think players switch off from the crowd. I think it's humanly impossible to operate with 40,000 people baring down on you - the only way to do so is to ignore it.

To be fair.....there is something to be said for top level players tuning out the crowd regardless if it is positive or negative.

You can see numerous examples of athletes in a variety of sports saying that once they are into the flow of the game they don't even notice the crowd.

Then again, plenty of examples of players (regardless of sport) who say they thrive on the energy of the crowd....so it may be (and evidence would point to it being so) down to the individual athlete.