Martin Jol v Harry Redknapp: Their Spurs Records Compared

[adamthfc]

They definitely weren't. I was on COYS at the time and the most everyone on there was expecting was 6th and a good run in one or two of the cups. I think histories being rewritten here. We finished the previous season quite well but we had to I guess as we were right in the shit early on, but everyone still had us well behind Arsenal and Liverpool. If there were people saying they expected fourth that season they were being extremely optimistic. I guess it's similar to a few saying now we can win the title which a few have said and if we did, i doubt you would say it was expected.

Spot on

 

[hybridsoldier]

Martin Jol did a great job in an up and coming side and had he not got sacked probably could have won the Carling Cup with us.

However, Harry Redknapp was the right man at the right time and has quite literally transformed the club into one of the biggest clubs in the country again.

We can compare them all we want, cold hard facts are Jol is gone and hasn't done a great dead since whilst THFC has moved way beyond Jol could have ever taken us.

People say Jol laid the foundations, I think this is fair but you have to credit Frank Arnesen for the tremendous job he did over-seeing one of the biggest squad clearouts I've ever seen. His first summer we signed a truckload of players. Sure they were not world beaters but they helped us step up and become a better side.

Further on, Damien Comolli also did a great job, bringing in players like Berbatov, Carrick, Zokora, Ekotto, Kaboul, Bale, Modric. Sure he made some bad signings too but I think Comolli did a good job and Harry has benefitted from these previous regimes.

Jol did a good job and has my respect but I think the jobs that Arnesen and Comolli did in giving Jol good players is massively massively understated.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Martin Jol did a great job in an up and coming side and had he not got sacked probably could have won the Carling Cup with us.

However, Harry Redknapp was the right man at the right time and has quite literally transformed the club into one of the biggest clubs in the country again.

We can compare them all we want, cold hard facts are Jol is gone and hasn't done a great dead since whilst THFC has moved way beyond Jol could have ever taken us.

People say Jol laid the foundations, I think this is fair but you have to credit Frank Arnesen for the tremendous job he did over-seeing one of the biggest squad clearouts I've ever seen. His first summer we signed a truckload of players. Sure they were not world beaters but they helped us step up and become a better side.

Further on, Damien Comolli also did a great job, bringing in players like Berbatov, Carrick, Zokora, Ekotto, Kaboul, Bale, Modric. Sure he made some bad signings too but I think Comolli did a good job and Harry has benefitted from these previous regimes.

Jol did a good job and has my respect but I think the jobs that Arnesen and Comolli did in giving Jol good players is massively massively understated.

Agree. Everyone involved has played a part in bringing us to where we are today.

 

[VegasII]

The players had jelly babies when Jol managed...haven't heard about jelly babies this time around. Ketchup full restored to the catering dept after the Ramos baby food debacle.

Does this count under the banner of comparing records?

 

[pook]

it always gets me how folks analyze managers and DoFs by going up and down lists of players - this signing good, that signing bad - without considering the squad.

comolli's signed some fine players, and full credit to him for that; but his squads were never balanced, and it's no wonder (to my mind, anyway) that the success so many of his acquisitions merited didn't come until he was gone. redknapp did more to balance his squad with a single signing (palacios) than anything comolli appeared (based on his history) likely to do, given as much time as you like. there's every reason to suspect that comolli's next signing, had he stayed on, might have been a better player than wilson palacios, but little reason to think it would have 'filled the holes'.

without weighing in on the superiority/inferiority of the two managers in question, it's always struck me that harry's enjoyed a significantly greater damien-comolli-benefit-to-detriment ratio than did jol. harry gets comolli's players, but without his obstacles.



ok, i guess i will weigh in on it ... i think harry's probably the better gaffer ... but i love martin jol (martin jol loves me). if only he'd been allowed to keep carrick, though ... i wonder ...

 

[striebs]

it always gets me how folks analyze managers and DoFs by going up and down lists of players - this signing good, that signing bad - without considering the squad.

comolli's signed some fine players, and full credit to him for that; but his squads were never balanced, and it's no wonder (to my mind, anyway) that the success so many of his acquisitions merited didn't come until he was gone. redknapp did more to balance his squad with a single signing (palacios) than anything comolli appeared (based on his history) likely to do, given as much time as you like. there's every reason to suspect that comolli's next signing, had he stayed on, might have been a better player than wilson palacios, but little reason to think it would have 'filled the holes'.

without weighing in on the superiority/inferiority of the two managers in question, it's always struck me that harry's enjoyed a significantly greater damien-comolli-benefit-to-detriment ratio than did jol. harry gets comolli's players, but without his obstacles.



ok, i guess i will weigh in on it ... i think harry's probably the better gaffer ... but i love martin jol (martin jol loves me). if only he'd been allowed to keep carrick, though ... i wonder ...

Yep .

Commoli was a decent scout but could not construct a team so was a lousy D.O.F. - unless he was intentionally unbalancing the team in order to get the manager sacked .

Berbatov and Bale were not "finds" but he did manage to persuade them to sign on the dotted line . His line of Gaulic charm had Levy mesmerised for much longer than it should have .

Commoli is the person clubs bring in when they want to replace their manager . It has happened at the last 3 clubs he has been at .

The McKinsey's of D.O.F.'s - totally fucking useless but great at sacking people and rubber stamping the manangements decisions .

 

[Bus-Conductor]

it always gets me how folks analyze managers and DoFs by going up and down lists of players - this signing good, that signing bad - without considering the squad.

comolli's signed some fine players, and full credit to him for that; but his squads were never balanced, and it's no wonder (to my mind, anyway) that the success so many of his acquisitions merited didn't come until he was gone. redknapp did more to balance his squad with a single signing (palacios) than anything comolli appeared (based on his history) likely to do, given as much time as you like. there's every reason to suspect that comolli's next signing, had he stayed on, might have been a better player than wilson palacios, but little reason to think it would have 'filled the holes'.

without weighing in on the superiority/inferiority of the two managers in question, it's always struck me that harry's enjoyed a significantly greater damien-comolli-benefit-to-detriment ratio than did jol. harry gets comolli's players, but without his obstacles.



ok, i guess i will weigh in on it ... i think harry's probably the better gaffer ... but i love martin jol (martin jol loves me). if only he'd been allowed to keep carrick, though ... i wonder ...

You make some fair points, that I partially agree with, and at the time (the beginning of the 08-09 season) I was arguing for upgrading Comolli, not the manager (Ramos) who had once again been left with an unbalanced squad (particularly poor attacking options).

But Jol was just as guilty of making personnel errors that affected our balance and success. It was his choices as manager that effectively exchanged players like Kanoute for Mido, Mendes for Brown, left Robinson in goal, Dawson at CB.

Comolli made some errors like paying stupid money for players who didn't fit our ethos (Bent, Bentley) and as you rightly say, not always bringing in exactly what was needed, but he also brought in some players who did and who we reaped the benefit of and who have and will eventually make the club vast profit on and off the pitch.

I think he was in many ways the DOF equivalent of Jol, good but not good enough and should have been replaced, not had the whole DOF system ditched.

Comolli is still making the same kind of mistakes at Liverpool with big purchases, just as Jol has hardly pulled up any trees, despite be given some great opportunities in Germany and Holland.

 

[mike_l]

They definitely weren't. I was on COYS at the time and the most everyone on there was expecting was 6th and a good run in one or two of the cups. I think histories being rewritten here. We finished the previous season quite well but we had to I guess as we were right in the shit early on, but everyone still had us well behind Arsenal and Liverpool. If there were people saying they expected fourth that season they were being extremely optimistic. I guess it's similar to a few saying now we can win the title which a few have said and if we did, i doubt you would say it was expected.

I can't recall what my pre-season expectations were tbh, mainly because I can't remember clearly the strength of our rivals at the time rather than our own squad. However, during the season I wasn't thinking that we were over achieving at all, we had a ridiculously talented squad and not many teams outside of the top 4 were as good as us.

As I recall Liverpool were a 2 man team with the rest of the squad poor and the only others near us were City and that was still prior to their mega-superstar buys.

Not saying I expected 4th, but it certainly wasn't a surprise, I don't think it was as miraculous an achievement as Jol almost getting it with the much weaker squad.

 

[jurgenthegreat]

You make some fair points, that I partially agree with, and at the time (the beginning of the 08-09 season) I was arguing for upgrading Comolli, not the manager (Ramos) who had once again been left with an unbalanced squad (particularly poor attacking options).

But Jol was just as guilty of making personnel errors that affected our balance and success. It was his choices as manager that effectively exchanged players like Kanoute for Mido, Mendes for Brown, left Robinson in goal, Dawson at CB.

Comolli made some errors like paying stupid money for players who didn't fit our ethos (Bent, Bentley) and as you rightly say, not always bringing in exactly what was needed, but he also brought in some players who did and who we reaped the benefit of and who have and will eventually make the club vast profit on and off the pitch.

I think he was in many ways the DOF equivalent of Jol, good but not good enough and should have been replaced, not had the whole DOF system ditched.

Comolli is still making the same kind of mistakes at Liverpool with big purchases, just as Jol has hardly pulled up any trees, despite be given some great opportunities in Germany and Holland.

you keep opn having a go at mido but you forget it was his partnership with keane that got us the first 5th place , he had a tremendous season

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

I can't recall what my pre-season expectations were tbh, mainly because I can't remember clearly the strength of our rivals at the time rather than our own squad. However, during the season I wasn't thinking that we were over achieving at all, we had a ridiculously talented squad and not many teams outside of the top 4 were as good as us.

As I recall Liverpool were a 2 man team with the rest of the squad poor and the only others near us were City and that was still prior to their mega-superstar buys.

Not saying I expected 4th, but it certainly wasn't a surprise, I don't think it was as miraculous an achievement as Jol almost getting it with the much weaker squad.

If someone told you at the beginning of that season we would finish fourth it would have been a massive surprise. Obviously as the season progressed and we were doing well you start to adjust your hopes. Even then though we were still third favourites behind Liverpool and Man city according to the pundits and virtually everyone on these sites. It was only the last month of the season when people started to believe we could do it.

 

[adamthfc]

If someone told you at the beginning of that season we would finish fourth it would have been a massive surprise. Obviously as the season progressed and we were doing well you start to adjust your hopes. Even then though we were still third favourites behind Liverpool and Man city according to the pundits and virtually everyone on these sites. It was only the last month of the season when people started to believe we could do it.

Im quitw stunned anyone would argue otherwise.

 

[mike_l]

If someone told you at the beginning of that season we would finish fourth it would have been a massive surprise. Obviously as the season progressed and we were doing well you start to adjust your hopes. Even then though we were still third favourites behind Liverpool and Man city according to the pundits and virtually everyone on these sites. It was only the last month of the season when people started to believe we could do it.

Im quitw stunned anyone would argue otherwise.

The initial point wasn't about whether anyone thought we would finish 4th or not, it was that no-one would have said we had the 4th best squad, which is a point which I believe to be debatable.

It's not at all impossible to have believed that we had the 4th best squad but also been of the opinion that we wouldn't finish 4th, partly due to pessimism but also down to historical thinking. You get so used to the same top 4 year in year out that even if you think we have a better squad than Liverpool you still think that they will finish higher.

 

[mike_l]

Im quitw stunned anyone would argue otherwise.

I'm quite stunned that you're quite stunned, if you go back and look at the squad we had going into the season we finished 4th, it's hardly a squad of no-hopers. I don't think they overachieved that season, whereas Jol's squad had much less quality overall and probably overachieved by finishing 5th nevermind getting so close to 4th.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

you keep opn having a go at mido but you forget it was his partnership with keane that got us the first 5th place , he had a tremendous season

We missed CL by a couple of points with Mido, imagine what could have been if we'd have had Kanoute.

One of Jol's master strokes that cost us very dear.

 

[Riandor]

Whilst I don't get all misty eyed about Jol he does deserve a lot of credit for guiding us into being a well liked team that did do pretty well.

I too agree that for once we had a manager with personality and I was proud to have him as our manager.

But our football was not the best.

The vlub though has benefited from having Jol and we have continuously improved, at least at the player level, if not always the final position level.

To be honest though the most praise should still go to Levy.

Everyone makes mistakes, levy and our managers all included... Redknapp can really wind me up too, but by and large he is getting it right on the field and if we continue in this vain (results wise), we will be challenging Chelsea for that top 3 spot.

Hell it isn't beyond us to aim for 2nd as I am starting to question Manchester UTD's stength in depth, but you always write them off at your peril.

So no I think 3rd should be the realistic aim.
R.

 

[adamthfc]

I'm quite stunned that you're quite stunned, if you go back and look at the squad we had going into the season we finished 4th, it's hardly a squad of no-hopers. I don't think they overachieved that season, whereas Jol's squad had much less quality overall and probably overachieved by finishing 5th nevermind getting so close to 4th.

It wasnt comsidered the 4th best squad by anyone.defoe was the only striker or not and most on here say he is Shit bale hadnt come on by this point.ledleys injuries had got worse And we had bougbt bassong a cb from a relegates team.we also had thw traditional sky 4 and huge spending city on top of that. Jols Squad was was considered more 5th best than harrys 4th best at that time.plus jols team played 40 games has any prem team ever played less in a season

 

[adamthfc]

We missed CL by a couple of points with Mido, imagine what could have been if we'd have had Kanoute.

One of Jol's master strokes that cost us very dear.

Selling fredi for that measly fee is one of the worst bit of busineas ever done
By the club

 

[SpurSince57]

We missed CL by a couple of points with Mido, imagine what could have been if we'd have had Kanoute.

One of Jol's master strokes that cost us very dear.

I imagine we'd have struggled to make seventh.

 

[mike_l]

It wasnt comsidered the 4th best squad by anyone.defoe was the only striker or not and most on here say he is Shit bale hadnt come on by this point.ledleys injuries had got worse And we had bougbt bassong a cb from a relegates team.we also had thw traditional sky 4 and huge spending city on top of that. Jols Squad was was considered more 5th best than harrys 4th best at that time.plus jols team played 40 games has any prem team ever played less in a season

That's a matter of opinion, and I disagree.

As for the strikers, Defoe, Pav and Crouch all hit respectable totals that year. City may have had shitloads of money at that point but hadn't really been able to attract too much, Robinho had flopped already and they relied solely on Tevez, Liverpool had gone to shit and there was no other competition really.

I'm not trying to take away from Redknapp here, but Jol's squad was of much poorer quality and I absolutely do believe that the season we finished 4th we had the 4th best squad, at least.

 

[adamthfc]

That's a matter of opinion, and I disagree.

As for the strikers, Defoe, Pav and Crouch all hit respectable totals that year. City may have had shitloads of money at that point but hadn't really been able to attract too much, Robinho had flopped already and they relied solely on Tevez, Liverpool had gone to shit and there was no other competition really.

I'm not trying to take away from Redknapp here, but Jol's squad was of much poorer quality and I absolutely do believe that the season we finished 4th we had the 4th best squad, at least.

No one knew liverpool had gone to shit before theseason started and city had still spent fuck loads money and many considered shoe ins for 4th.