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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
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Palace worked very hard to close us down in the first half but appeared to tire in the second half.
I agree with that. I also think that game by game with our mids getting back up to speed, and having Udogie back played a big part in our improvement from recent games. I actually thought we did ok first half.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,419
38,436
Yeah I think this is often the way when we come up against teams at home who we are expected to dominate. They work really hard which it makes it very difficult for us in the first half, but generally they game opens up in the second half as they tire.

I think this has been a problem for years to be honest. Not just for us either: all of the top teams have similar issues to overcome. Not in every match, but it is a regular problem which the top teams encounter.

For example look at some of City’s recent results: Bt Everton 2-1 at home (scored in 71 and 85 min) Bt Brentford at home, 1-0 (scored in 71 min), Drew Chelsea at home 1-1 (equalised 83 min).
It's definitely been a problem for years, regardless of the style of football. Under Poch, for that fantastic two or three seasons, his teams overwhelmed the opposition through relentless pressing but apart from that, breaking teams down has been a problem.
 

Styopa

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2014
5,349
14,808
It's definitely been a problem for years, regardless of the style of football. Under Poch, for that fantastic two or three seasons, his teams overwhelmed the opposition through relentless pressing but apart from that, breaking teams down has been a problem.

There was one season in particular with Poch, the last at WHL, where we just looked much fitter and stronger than most other teams.

But yeah overall, going right back to Redknapp, I can remember lots of really frustrating matches against mid and lower table teams.

Basically ever since we have become a regular top five or six team we have been having these issues.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,419
38,436
There was one season in particular with Poch, the last at WHL, where we just looked much fitter and stronger than most other teams.

But yeah overall, going right back to Redknapp, I can remember lots of really frustrating matches against mid and lower table teams.

Basically ever since we have become a regular top five or six team we have been having these issues.
Spot on.
 

SpursSince1980

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2011
4,754
14,485
I would like to see Ange tweak his attacking system against low block teams to allow for more shots outside the box. We seem really reticent about creating space to get off those long range efforts. Almost as if they have been instructed to err away from those shots. But you can see how teams congest middle. As they know we always try to work the ball into crossing along the ground. But we have the likes of Sonny, Madders, Bentancur, Kulu, Porro, and Sarr, who are all very capable of hitting the ball from outside the 18 yard box.

At least mix it up a little. Keeps the opponents on their toes, as we become more unpredictable. Because right now, we look relatively easy to shut down when teams park the bus and maintain discipline. We don’t have anyone capable of dribbling past players. And outside of Madders, no consistent playmakers.

Yesterday was an important win, but up until Johnson forced their CB into a mistake, Palace had done a pretty good job of limiting us to only two or three good chances. And frankly, they’re utter shite.

Thankfully we have Villa next week. Yes they beat us at our home. But if memory serves, we carved them to pieces in the first 20 mins, until Cash went full psycho on Bentancur. They won’t play a low block against us. It will be an interesting match between two teams that share some similarities in how they attack and defend.

Thats why I think Ange will start with our three quickest players up top. As Villa will come out swinging. Which will leave a lot of room behind their CBs. There will be chances galore. For both teams.
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,781
5,533
Is Ange healthy? The gravelly voice is typical of him, but since sometime in December, I've noticed in press conferences and interviews he's breathing heavy and coughing a lot. Quite a lot.

You'd think surrounded by medical staff they'd get on top of it, but he seems to a chest infection or something that just won't shake off.
 

brendanb50

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2005
4,486
3,895
I would like to see Ange tweak his attacking system against low block teams to allow for more shots outside the box. We seem really reticent about creating space to get off those long range efforts. Almost as if they have been instructed to err away from those shots. But you can see how teams congest middle. As they know we always try to work the ball into crossing along the ground. But we have the likes of Sonny, Madders, Bentancur, Kulu, Porro, and Sarr, who are all very capable of hitting the ball from outside the 18 yard box.

At least mix it up a little. Keeps the opponents on their toes, as we become more unpredictable. Because right now, we look relatively easy to shut down when teams park the bus and maintain discipline. We don’t have anyone capable of dribbling past players. And outside of Madders, no consistent playmakers.

Yesterday was an important win, but up until Johnson forced their CB into a mistake, Palace had done a pretty good job of limiting us to only two or three good chances. And frankly, they’re utter shite.

Thankfully we have Villa next week. Yes they beat us at our home. But if memory serves, we carved them to pieces in the first 20 mins, until Cash went full psycho on Bentancur. They won’t play a low block against us. It will be an interesting match between two teams that share some similarities in how they attack and defend.

Thats why I think Ange will start with our three quickest players up top. As Villa will come out swinging. Which will leave a lot of room behind their CBs. There will be chances galore. For both teams.
I think there’s some real merit in this. Appreciate pot shots from range can concede possession etc. but a few systems to get shots away at least keeps the opposition guessing; do they come out to stop a shot or sit in like they have been.

interestingly, I’ve watched a bit of Leverkusen this year and Grimaldo seems to be used to great affect in this way. Regularly firing swerving shots and crosses at goal or into the box to create chances/chaos.
 

spurs mental

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2007
25,338
50,011
I think there’s some real merit in this. Appreciate pot shots from range can concede possession etc. but a few systems to get shots away at least keeps the opposition guessing; do they come out to stop a shot or sit in like they have been.

interestingly, I’ve watched a bit of Leverkusen this year and Grimaldo seems to be used to great affect in this way. Regularly firing swerving shots and crosses at goal or into the box to create chances/chaos.
Not only that, but those long shots can easily lead to a deflected goal too, or a block landing at the feet of one of ours in a better position to score.
 

RuskyM

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
7,073
23,348
It's a hodge-podge patchwork season, and he's doing tremendously. Get to the end of the season, continue working together, make those few more adjustments, go for it next year. Players clearly believe in him. Night and day from a year ago.

Is Ange healthy? The gravelly voice is typical of him, but since sometime in December, I've noticed in press conferences and interviews he's breathing heavy and coughing a lot. Quite a lot.

You'd think surrounded by medical staff they'd get on top of it, but he seems to a chest infection or something that just won't shake off.

Could argue it's probably pretty normal for a nearly 60-year-old overweight bloke in a stressful job. Would be nice to get him some lemsip though.
 

sidford

Well-Known Member
Oct 20, 2003
11,380
29,903

Sometimes, it helps to have a little bit of distance.

I was unable to attend Saturday’s game between Tottenham Hotspur and Crystal Palace, so followed it from afar. The mood on social media at half-time was a mixture of frustration and boredom, with some exasperation that Spurs, having had two weeks without a game to prepare, were playing with such little invention against Palace’s deep block. At the stadium, the mood was said to be similar.

Had I been there, I would almost certainly have shared these feelings, especially with everyone’s tensions heightened after the home defeat to Wolverhampton Wanderers in the previous game.

As it was, I felt fairly confident, from a few miles away, that Tottenham would probably be fine and end up winning — as they have tended to do in tight home matches this season, and as they ultimately did on this occasion, too.

For those of us who follow Spurs obsessively — whether that’s on a professional level or as a fan — it can be hard to step back and appreciate the bigger picture. But to do so is to see how positive this season has been so far; a campaign where the consensus at the start was that qualification for any of the three European competitions would be a decent outcome and one that began with the sale of the best player in the club’s modern history.

With 12 of the 38 top-flight games to go, Spurs are in fifth place and look a good bet for Champions League qualification (Manchester United in sixth have six fewer points and a far inferior goal difference, and have played one more match), and are playing very entertaining football in the process.

To try to put where they are into context, it’s helpful to look at two of the three teams above them in the table: leaders Liverpool and third-placed Arsenal. Over the past few years, both have executed the kind of rebuild that Ange Postecoglou and Spurs are now attempting, and have done so with comparable resources.

But rather than comparing Spurs with those teams as they are now, it’s more useful to look at where they were 26 games into the respective reigns of Jurgen Klopp and Mikel Arteta (the number of matches Postecoglou has been in charge).

As the table below shows, Postecoglou has outperformed both pretty comfortably when it comes to points won. His team have also posted better attacking numbers than his Liverpool and Arsenal counterparts did, but worse defensive ones.

Comparing managers' PL starts
AFTER 26 PL GAMESPOSTECOGLOUKLOPPARTETA
Points504342
Wins151212
Draws576
Losses678
Goals for555040
Goals conceded393528
Expected goals45.936.230.9
Expected goals against43.923.138.3
Both Klopp and Arteta had mitigating circumstances to deal with, but this is still a reminder of the fact that Postecoglou has started extremely well at Tottenham — especially given their injury crisis from earlier in the season.

Unlike the Australian, Klopp and Arteta were appointed midway through a season (in October 2015 and December 2019 respectively), meaning they missed out on pre-season and an initial summer transfer window to start moulding the squad.

The Liverpool players Klopp was dealing with in his first 26 Premier League games were all ones he had inherited from Brendan Rodgers — save for January loan signing Steven Caulker, who ended up playing three times for him in the league, all as a late substitute. For Arteta, it was a similar story, with only Cedric Soares and Pablo Mari added to his squad during the majority of his first 26 league matches (a stretch that includes the start of the 2020-21 season), both of whom were very much stop-gap signings.

Liverpool’s league results in Klopp’s early period were also affected by their prioritising of the cups, ending up as beaten finalists in both the League Cup and Europa League that season. Arsenal’s priority towards the end of Arteta’s first half-season meanwhile was the FA Cup, which they won in a campaign that was stopped for three months between March and June because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

A strange beast in that first Klopp year, Liverpool were involved in some wild games including a 5-4 win at Norwich, a 3-3 home draw with Arsenal, and a dramatic 5-4 Europa League aggregate win against Borussia Dortmund (from 4-2 down after an hour of the second leg). They also beat Chelsea and Manchester City away (3-1 and 4-1 respectively) in Klopp’s first couple of months and knocked Manchester United out of the Europa League’s round of 16. But, conversely, they lost 3-0 at Watford and 3-2 at Southampton having been 2-0 up (admittedly with an understrength team).

They ended up finishing eighth, as Klopp (who took over with them 10th) began his mission to “turn doubters into believers”.

Arsenal were similarly inconsistent in Arteta’s first 26 league games, and also ended his first season eighth, having been 11th when he was appointed.

They beat Manchester United and newly-crowned champions Liverpool at home (the latter in a game in which they got completely outplayed) and drew at Chelsea, but were battered on a post-lockdown visit to City when they also lost to relegation-threatened sides Brighton & Hove Albion and Aston Villa. In the FA Cup, Arteta abandoned his attacking principles, played a 3-4-3 and dug in to beat City and Chelsea in the semis and the final.


That absence of a summer window at the start for Klopp and Arteta is obvious though when you look at some of the players each was selecting in some of those matches. Alberto Moreno and Joe Allen for Liverpool, for instance, or Shkodran Mustafi and Sead Kolasinac for Arsenal. Players like these were quickly discarded or marginalised.

There’s an element of that for Postecoglou now too, but largely that concerns his fringe players. He can pick a starting Tottenham team most weeks filled with players who are expected to be in his long-term plans, helped by the fact that six of them are his signings (he also had a more productive first winter window than either Klopp or Arteta did).

Given they were arriving with the season well underway and the general state of their clubs at the time, you could argue that Klopp and Arteta inherited even more of a mess than Postecoglou did. But even if we take the first 26 games for each manager with a pinch of salt and look a bit beyond that, his record so far still stacks up well.

In Klopp’s first full season in charge of 2016-17, which began 10 months after he’d been appointed, Liverpool finished fourth with 76 points. Spurs are currently tracking for 73 in Postecoglou’s equivalent. Neither team had any European competition to distract them. Both had games when they looked brilliant and games where they looked a bit of a mess. Liverpool were boosted for that season by the summer arrivals of, among others, Sadio Mane, Georginio Wijnaldum and Joel Matip, as their team began to take shape.

But the sense that Liverpool were thrilling going forward and an accident waiting to happen defensively actually carried on into Klopp’s third season (2017-18). Mohamed Salah joined that June to make the attack even more potent, but there were still multiple horror shows at the back.

Between September and December 2017, Liverpool lost 5-0 to City at the Etihad (albeit they had 10 men for almost an hour), drew 3-3 at Sevilla having led 3-0 after 30 minutes and by the same score away to Arsenal in a game where they went from two goals up to 3-2 down in five minutes early in the second half. Also in that period was a 4-1 thrashing by Spurs in the October — a full two years after Klopp had been appointed.

The point here is that things do take time and that even if a team improve every season, as Liverpool did up until winning the title in 2019-20, there can still be troughs within those campaigns. Even a manager as good as Klopp at a club with a pedigree like Liverpool’s doesn’t get it right overnight.

It would have been impossible to imagine following that 3-3 with Arsenal in December 2017 that Liverpool would transform the following season into a winning machine who lifted the club’s sixth European Cup/Champions League while conceding just 22 league goals. In Klopp’s first three seasons that figure had been 50, 42 and 38. It was only after the signings of Virgil van Dijk and Alisson in the January and July of 2018 that Liverpool became a serious defensive team.

Both Liverpool and Arsenal are proof that while Spurs have looked very shaky at the back at times this season, that doesn’t mean they will do so forever. And in some ways, they already look more solid defensively than Liverpool did up until Van Dijk and then Alisson arrived, both more than two years into the Klopp era.

Yes, they have conceded a lot of goals and given up a lot of chances, but personnel-wise they appear to have a goalkeeper and first-choice back four well suited to what Postecoglou wants. The next stage of their development is having back-up players who can come in and not have it feel like there is both a substantial drop-off in quality and a big change stylistically, as was the case when Emerson Royal and Ben Davies replaced injured duo Pedro Porro and Destiny Udogie for the home defeat against Wolves last month.

Returning to Liverpool, where they did show signs of promise that they could become an elite team, right from Klopp’s arrival, was that on their day they could beat anyone.

Tottenham have a bit of that about them under Postecoglou, having taken five points from their three games so far against City, Liverpool and Arsenal. They’ve also won two and drawn one of their three games against Manchester United and Newcastle United, who both finished in the top four last season.

Comparing Postecoglou’s Spurs to the early days of Arteta at Arsenal is very encouraging from a Tottenham perspective.

Even if we discount the madness of that first, pandemic-skewed half-season and look at Arteta’s first full campaign in charge, we’re reminded of how long it took for him to really make his mark.

In that 2020-21 season, Arteta’s Arsenal finished eighth with 61 points — 12 below what Postecoglou’s 2023-24 Spurs are on course for. It’s hard to know precisely but it’s possible the previous season’s FA Cup triumph characterised by deep defending and three at the back meant it took longer for Arteta to instil how he wanted Arsenal to play long-term. Postecoglou has gone the other way, refusing to compromise even when his team has been injury-ravaged.

In any case, it is worth remembering just how bad Arsenal were at this point of Arteta’s reign.

They had just been beaten for the third time in their first six matches of 2020-21 and were about to embark on a dreadful run that saw them lose five and draw two of seven Premier League games.

At that point, in December 2020, Arsenal were 15th — four points above the relegation zone, having played more games than most of the teams below them. One can only imagine how mutinous the fanbase would have been had supporters been allowed in the grounds amid the ongoing restrictions on crowds designed to limit the spread of Covid-19 (of their four home games in that seven-match run, three were behind closed doors, while 2,000 fans were allowed for the other).

One also wonders how much of a clamour there would have been for Arteta to go had Arsenal lost their next game after this sequence — a 3-1 home win over Chelsea on the Boxing Day. With hindsight, it now feels a little crazy that a long-term project could hinge on just one game (in a season where, as stated above, Arsenal ultimately finished eighth, and would have almost certainly have ended up somewhere else in mid-table even if they had lost to Chelsea).

In the same way, Spurs’ 3-1 win over Palace on Saturday will probably end up being quite forgettable and is unlikely to shape the Postecoglou project, even though it felt massive at the time.

That’s where some distance can be useful — remembering that there will be setbacks in a long-term project, but it is possible to recover from them.

Even City under Pep Guardiola weren’t great in his 2016-17 debut season. They finished third with 78 points; decent, but far below what we’ve come to expect from them and not a much better points per game (2.1) average than Spurs have now (1.9).

As for Arsenal, it wasn’t until Arteta’s second full season in 2021-22 — which followed his second summer window, during which the club spent more than £150million and moved on plenty of dead wood— that there were signs of genuine progress. They ended up finishing fifth with 69 points, but only after losing their first three matches without scoring a single goal (another example of a low point even if the overall direction of travel was positive).

His third full season was when things really came together, as Arsenal led the table for most of the year before ultimately coming second behind City. Now, they are again in the title race and in the Champions League’s last 16 — after another big summer spend, this one north of £200million.

For both Klopp and Arteta, it took three years — and three summer windows — before they could even come close to Guardiola’s City team.

None of which is to say Spurs shouldn’t aim high and be looking to hunt down City sooner than that (especially if Guardiola leaves in the next year or so). But it is a reminder that squad-building takes time — and money. Postecoglou should be given plenty of the former, and so far he’s been given a hefty chunk of the latter. There appears to be an appreciation at Tottenham that his vision can only be realised if he is backed to bring in the players he wants.

This has been the case for both Klopp and Arteta. For the former, nine of his 11 starters in the 2019 Champions League final were players he had signed. In Arteta’s case, 13 of the 16 players used in Monday’s 6-0 win at Sheffield United were players he had brought in. Spurs have already moved quickly in this regard, but on Saturday, only four of their starting players were Postecoglou’s signings.

Bit by bit, window by window it should become more and more his team — and that should only be good news for Tottenham.

What does all this mean?

Well, there are going to be difficult days in this phase of the Postecoglou project. It happens — Liverpool lost at home to Palace in both of Klopp’s first two seasons. Arsenal lost at home to Burnley, Leicester City, Villa, Wolves and Everton in Arteta’s first full campaign.

None of which is to say that there are any guarantees over the next few years, or that sticking with a manager alone is a recipe for success — Erik ten Hag at Manchester United, anyone? But taking a step back is a reminder that things are pointing in the right direction, and while every case is different, the only way anyone has even nearly threatened City in the past six and a half years is to not take any shortcuts and trust in a long-term approach.

That’s what Spurs are doing with Postecoglou now. And if things go well, then the hope is that, in a few years’ time, we’ll barely be able to remember frustrating first halves like the one against Palace on Saturday.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,609
88,466

Sometimes, it helps to have a little bit of distance.

I was unable to attend Saturday’s game between Tottenham Hotspur and Crystal Palace, so followed it from afar. The mood on social media at half-time was a mixture of frustration and boredom, with some exasperation that Spurs, having had two weeks without a game to prepare, were playing with such little invention against Palace’s deep block. At the stadium, the mood was said to be similar.

Had I been there, I would almost certainly have shared these feelings, especially with everyone’s tensions heightened after the home defeat to Wolverhampton Wanderers in the previous game.

As it was, I felt fairly confident, from a few miles away, that Tottenham would probably be fine and end up winning — as they have tended to do in tight home matches this season, and as they ultimately did on this occasion, too.

For those of us who follow Spurs obsessively — whether that’s on a professional level or as a fan — it can be hard to step back and appreciate the bigger picture. But to do so is to see how positive this season has been so far; a campaign where the consensus at the start was that qualification for any of the three European competitions would be a decent outcome and one that began with the sale of the best player in the club’s modern history.

With 12 of the 38 top-flight games to go, Spurs are in fifth place and look a good bet for Champions League qualification (Manchester United in sixth have six fewer points and a far inferior goal difference, and have played one more match), and are playing very entertaining football in the process.

To try to put where they are into context, it’s helpful to look at two of the three teams above them in the table: leaders Liverpool and third-placed Arsenal. Over the past few years, both have executed the kind of rebuild that Ange Postecoglou and Spurs are now attempting, and have done so with comparable resources.

But rather than comparing Spurs with those teams as they are now, it’s more useful to look at where they were 26 games into the respective reigns of Jurgen Klopp and Mikel Arteta (the number of matches Postecoglou has been in charge).

As the table below shows, Postecoglou has outperformed both pretty comfortably when it comes to points won. His team have also posted better attacking numbers than his Liverpool and Arsenal counterparts did, but worse defensive ones.

Comparing managers' PL starts
AFTER 26 PL GAMESPOSTECOGLOUKLOPPARTETA
Points504342
Wins151212
Draws576
Losses678
Goals for555040
Goals conceded393528
Expected goals45.936.230.9
Expected goals against43.923.138.3
Both Klopp and Arteta had mitigating circumstances to deal with, but this is still a reminder of the fact that Postecoglou has started extremely well at Tottenham — especially given their injury crisis from earlier in the season.

Unlike the Australian, Klopp and Arteta were appointed midway through a season (in October 2015 and December 2019 respectively), meaning they missed out on pre-season and an initial summer transfer window to start moulding the squad.

The Liverpool players Klopp was dealing with in his first 26 Premier League games were all ones he had inherited from Brendan Rodgers — save for January loan signing Steven Caulker, who ended up playing three times for him in the league, all as a late substitute. For Arteta, it was a similar story, with only Cedric Soares and Pablo Mari added to his squad during the majority of his first 26 league matches (a stretch that includes the start of the 2020-21 season), both of whom were very much stop-gap signings.

Liverpool’s league results in Klopp’s early period were also affected by their prioritising of the cups, ending up as beaten finalists in both the League Cup and Europa League that season. Arsenal’s priority towards the end of Arteta’s first half-season meanwhile was the FA Cup, which they won in a campaign that was stopped for three months between March and June because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

A strange beast in that first Klopp year, Liverpool were involved in some wild games including a 5-4 win at Norwich, a 3-3 home draw with Arsenal, and a dramatic 5-4 Europa League aggregate win against Borussia Dortmund (from 4-2 down after an hour of the second leg). They also beat Chelsea and Manchester City away (3-1 and 4-1 respectively) in Klopp’s first couple of months and knocked Manchester United out of the Europa League’s round of 16. But, conversely, they lost 3-0 at Watford and 3-2 at Southampton having been 2-0 up (admittedly with an understrength team).

They ended up finishing eighth, as Klopp (who took over with them 10th) began his mission to “turn doubters into believers”.

Arsenal were similarly inconsistent in Arteta’s first 26 league games, and also ended his first season eighth, having been 11th when he was appointed.

They beat Manchester United and newly-crowned champions Liverpool at home (the latter in a game in which they got completely outplayed) and drew at Chelsea, but were battered on a post-lockdown visit to City when they also lost to relegation-threatened sides Brighton & Hove Albion and Aston Villa. In the FA Cup, Arteta abandoned his attacking principles, played a 3-4-3 and dug in to beat City and Chelsea in the semis and the final.


That absence of a summer window at the start for Klopp and Arteta is obvious though when you look at some of the players each was selecting in some of those matches. Alberto Moreno and Joe Allen for Liverpool, for instance, or Shkodran Mustafi and Sead Kolasinac for Arsenal. Players like these were quickly discarded or marginalised.

There’s an element of that for Postecoglou now too, but largely that concerns his fringe players. He can pick a starting Tottenham team most weeks filled with players who are expected to be in his long-term plans, helped by the fact that six of them are his signings (he also had a more productive first winter window than either Klopp or Arteta did).

Given they were arriving with the season well underway and the general state of their clubs at the time, you could argue that Klopp and Arteta inherited even more of a mess than Postecoglou did. But even if we take the first 26 games for each manager with a pinch of salt and look a bit beyond that, his record so far still stacks up well.

In Klopp’s first full season in charge of 2016-17, which began 10 months after he’d been appointed, Liverpool finished fourth with 76 points. Spurs are currently tracking for 73 in Postecoglou’s equivalent. Neither team had any European competition to distract them. Both had games when they looked brilliant and games where they looked a bit of a mess. Liverpool were boosted for that season by the summer arrivals of, among others, Sadio Mane, Georginio Wijnaldum and Joel Matip, as their team began to take shape.

But the sense that Liverpool were thrilling going forward and an accident waiting to happen defensively actually carried on into Klopp’s third season (2017-18). Mohamed Salah joined that June to make the attack even more potent, but there were still multiple horror shows at the back.

Between September and December 2017, Liverpool lost 5-0 to City at the Etihad (albeit they had 10 men for almost an hour), drew 3-3 at Sevilla having led 3-0 after 30 minutes and by the same score away to Arsenal in a game where they went from two goals up to 3-2 down in five minutes early in the second half. Also in that period was a 4-1 thrashing by Spurs in the October — a full two years after Klopp had been appointed.

The point here is that things do take time and that even if a team improve every season, as Liverpool did up until winning the title in 2019-20, there can still be troughs within those campaigns. Even a manager as good as Klopp at a club with a pedigree like Liverpool’s doesn’t get it right overnight.

It would have been impossible to imagine following that 3-3 with Arsenal in December 2017 that Liverpool would transform the following season into a winning machine who lifted the club’s sixth European Cup/Champions League while conceding just 22 league goals. In Klopp’s first three seasons that figure had been 50, 42 and 38. It was only after the signings of Virgil van Dijk and Alisson in the January and July of 2018 that Liverpool became a serious defensive team.

Both Liverpool and Arsenal are proof that while Spurs have looked very shaky at the back at times this season, that doesn’t mean they will do so forever. And in some ways, they already look more solid defensively than Liverpool did up until Van Dijk and then Alisson arrived, both more than two years into the Klopp era.

Yes, they have conceded a lot of goals and given up a lot of chances, but personnel-wise they appear to have a goalkeeper and first-choice back four well suited to what Postecoglou wants. The next stage of their development is having back-up players who can come in and not have it feel like there is both a substantial drop-off in quality and a big change stylistically, as was the case when Emerson Royal and Ben Davies replaced injured duo Pedro Porro and Destiny Udogie for the home defeat against Wolves last month.

Returning to Liverpool, where they did show signs of promise that they could become an elite team, right from Klopp’s arrival, was that on their day they could beat anyone.

Tottenham have a bit of that about them under Postecoglou, having taken five points from their three games so far against City, Liverpool and Arsenal. They’ve also won two and drawn one of their three games against Manchester United and Newcastle United, who both finished in the top four last season.

Comparing Postecoglou’s Spurs to the early days of Arteta at Arsenal is very encouraging from a Tottenham perspective.

Even if we discount the madness of that first, pandemic-skewed half-season and look at Arteta’s first full campaign in charge, we’re reminded of how long it took for him to really make his mark.

In that 2020-21 season, Arteta’s Arsenal finished eighth with 61 points — 12 below what Postecoglou’s 2023-24 Spurs are on course for. It’s hard to know precisely but it’s possible the previous season’s FA Cup triumph characterised by deep defending and three at the back meant it took longer for Arteta to instil how he wanted Arsenal to play long-term. Postecoglou has gone the other way, refusing to compromise even when his team has been injury-ravaged.

In any case, it is worth remembering just how bad Arsenal were at this point of Arteta’s reign.

They had just been beaten for the third time in their first six matches of 2020-21 and were about to embark on a dreadful run that saw them lose five and draw two of seven Premier League games.

At that point, in December 2020, Arsenal were 15th — four points above the relegation zone, having played more games than most of the teams below them. One can only imagine how mutinous the fanbase would have been had supporters been allowed in the grounds amid the ongoing restrictions on crowds designed to limit the spread of Covid-19 (of their four home games in that seven-match run, three were behind closed doors, while 2,000 fans were allowed for the other).

One also wonders how much of a clamour there would have been for Arteta to go had Arsenal lost their next game after this sequence — a 3-1 home win over Chelsea on the Boxing Day. With hindsight, it now feels a little crazy that a long-term project could hinge on just one game (in a season where, as stated above, Arsenal ultimately finished eighth, and would have almost certainly have ended up somewhere else in mid-table even if they had lost to Chelsea).

In the same way, Spurs’ 3-1 win over Palace on Saturday will probably end up being quite forgettable and is unlikely to shape the Postecoglou project, even though it felt massive at the time.

That’s where some distance can be useful — remembering that there will be setbacks in a long-term project, but it is possible to recover from them.

Even City under Pep Guardiola weren’t great in his 2016-17 debut season. They finished third with 78 points; decent, but far below what we’ve come to expect from them and not a much better points per game (2.1) average than Spurs have now (1.9).

As for Arsenal, it wasn’t until Arteta’s second full season in 2021-22 — which followed his second summer window, during which the club spent more than £150million and moved on plenty of dead wood— that there were signs of genuine progress. They ended up finishing fifth with 69 points, but only after losing their first three matches without scoring a single goal (another example of a low point even if the overall direction of travel was positive).

His third full season was when things really came together, as Arsenal led the table for most of the year before ultimately coming second behind City. Now, they are again in the title race and in the Champions League’s last 16 — after another big summer spend, this one north of £200million.

For both Klopp and Arteta, it took three years — and three summer windows — before they could even come close to Guardiola’s City team.

None of which is to say Spurs shouldn’t aim high and be looking to hunt down City sooner than that (especially if Guardiola leaves in the next year or so). But it is a reminder that squad-building takes time — and money. Postecoglou should be given plenty of the former, and so far he’s been given a hefty chunk of the latter. There appears to be an appreciation at Tottenham that his vision can only be realised if he is backed to bring in the players he wants.

This has been the case for both Klopp and Arteta. For the former, nine of his 11 starters in the 2019 Champions League final were players he had signed. In Arteta’s case, 13 of the 16 players used in Monday’s 6-0 win at Sheffield United were players he had brought in. Spurs have already moved quickly in this regard, but on Saturday, only four of their starting players were Postecoglou’s signings.

Bit by bit, window by window it should become more and more his team — and that should only be good news for Tottenham.

What does all this mean?

Well, there are going to be difficult days in this phase of the Postecoglou project. It happens — Liverpool lost at home to Palace in both of Klopp’s first two seasons. Arsenal lost at home to Burnley, Leicester City, Villa, Wolves and Everton in Arteta’s first full campaign.

None of which is to say that there are any guarantees over the next few years, or that sticking with a manager alone is a recipe for success — Erik ten Hag at Manchester United, anyone? But taking a step back is a reminder that things are pointing in the right direction, and while every case is different, the only way anyone has even nearly threatened City in the past six and a half years is to not take any shortcuts and trust in a long-term approach.

That’s what Spurs are doing with Postecoglou now. And if things go well, then the hope is that, in a few years’ time, we’ll barely be able to remember frustrating first halves like the one against Palace on Saturday.
So @StartingPrice is writing for the Athletic now, I see.
 

djhotspur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2021
6,770
15,816

Sometimes, it helps to have a little bit of distance.

I was unable to attend Saturday’s game between Tottenham Hotspur and Crystal Palace, so followed it from afar. The mood on social media at half-time was a mixture of frustration and boredom, with some exasperation that Spurs, having had two weeks without a game to prepare, were playing with such little invention against Palace’s deep block. At the stadium, the mood was said to be similar.

Had I been there, I would almost certainly have shared these feelings, especially with everyone’s tensions heightened after the home defeat to Wolverhampton Wanderers in the previous game.

As it was, I felt fairly confident, from a few miles away, that Tottenham would probably be fine and end up winning — as they have tended to do in tight home matches this season, and as they ultimately did on this occasion, too.

For those of us who follow Spurs obsessively — whether that’s on a professional level or as a fan — it can be hard to step back and appreciate the bigger picture. But to do so is to see how positive this season has been so far; a campaign where the consensus at the start was that qualification for any of the three European competitions would be a decent outcome and one that began with the sale of the best player in the club’s modern history.

With 12 of the 38 top-flight games to go, Spurs are in fifth place and look a good bet for Champions League qualification (Manchester United in sixth have six fewer points and a far inferior goal difference, and have played one more match), and are playing very entertaining football in the process.

To try to put where they are into context, it’s helpful to look at two of the three teams above them in the table: leaders Liverpool and third-placed Arsenal. Over the past few years, both have executed the kind of rebuild that Ange Postecoglou and Spurs are now attempting, and have done so with comparable resources.

But rather than comparing Spurs with those teams as they are now, it’s more useful to look at where they were 26 games into the respective reigns of Jurgen Klopp and Mikel Arteta (the number of matches Postecoglou has been in charge).

As the table below shows, Postecoglou has outperformed both pretty comfortably when it comes to points won. His team have also posted better attacking numbers than his Liverpool and Arsenal counterparts did, but worse defensive ones.

Comparing managers' PL starts
AFTER 26 PL GAMESPOSTECOGLOUKLOPPARTETA
Points504342
Wins151212
Draws576
Losses678
Goals for555040
Goals conceded393528
Expected goals45.936.230.9
Expected goals against43.923.138.3
Both Klopp and Arteta had mitigating circumstances to deal with, but this is still a reminder of the fact that Postecoglou has started extremely well at Tottenham — especially given their injury crisis from earlier in the season.

Unlike the Australian, Klopp and Arteta were appointed midway through a season (in October 2015 and December 2019 respectively), meaning they missed out on pre-season and an initial summer transfer window to start moulding the squad.

The Liverpool players Klopp was dealing with in his first 26 Premier League games were all ones he had inherited from Brendan Rodgers — save for January loan signing Steven Caulker, who ended up playing three times for him in the league, all as a late substitute. For Arteta, it was a similar story, with only Cedric Soares and Pablo Mari added to his squad during the majority of his first 26 league matches (a stretch that includes the start of the 2020-21 season), both of whom were very much stop-gap signings.

Liverpool’s league results in Klopp’s early period were also affected by their prioritising of the cups, ending up as beaten finalists in both the League Cup and Europa League that season. Arsenal’s priority towards the end of Arteta’s first half-season meanwhile was the FA Cup, which they won in a campaign that was stopped for three months between March and June because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

A strange beast in that first Klopp year, Liverpool were involved in some wild games including a 5-4 win at Norwich, a 3-3 home draw with Arsenal, and a dramatic 5-4 Europa League aggregate win against Borussia Dortmund (from 4-2 down after an hour of the second leg). They also beat Chelsea and Manchester City away (3-1 and 4-1 respectively) in Klopp’s first couple of months and knocked Manchester United out of the Europa League’s round of 16. But, conversely, they lost 3-0 at Watford and 3-2 at Southampton having been 2-0 up (admittedly with an understrength team).

They ended up finishing eighth, as Klopp (who took over with them 10th) began his mission to “turn doubters into believers”.

Arsenal were similarly inconsistent in Arteta’s first 26 league games, and also ended his first season eighth, having been 11th when he was appointed.

They beat Manchester United and newly-crowned champions Liverpool at home (the latter in a game in which they got completely outplayed) and drew at Chelsea, but were battered on a post-lockdown visit to City when they also lost to relegation-threatened sides Brighton & Hove Albion and Aston Villa. In the FA Cup, Arteta abandoned his attacking principles, played a 3-4-3 and dug in to beat City and Chelsea in the semis and the final.


That absence of a summer window at the start for Klopp and Arteta is obvious though when you look at some of the players each was selecting in some of those matches. Alberto Moreno and Joe Allen for Liverpool, for instance, or Shkodran Mustafi and Sead Kolasinac for Arsenal. Players like these were quickly discarded or marginalised.

There’s an element of that for Postecoglou now too, but largely that concerns his fringe players. He can pick a starting Tottenham team most weeks filled with players who are expected to be in his long-term plans, helped by the fact that six of them are his signings (he also had a more productive first winter window than either Klopp or Arteta did).

Given they were arriving with the season well underway and the general state of their clubs at the time, you could argue that Klopp and Arteta inherited even more of a mess than Postecoglou did. But even if we take the first 26 games for each manager with a pinch of salt and look a bit beyond that, his record so far still stacks up well.

In Klopp’s first full season in charge of 2016-17, which began 10 months after he’d been appointed, Liverpool finished fourth with 76 points. Spurs are currently tracking for 73 in Postecoglou’s equivalent. Neither team had any European competition to distract them. Both had games when they looked brilliant and games where they looked a bit of a mess. Liverpool were boosted for that season by the summer arrivals of, among others, Sadio Mane, Georginio Wijnaldum and Joel Matip, as their team began to take shape.

But the sense that Liverpool were thrilling going forward and an accident waiting to happen defensively actually carried on into Klopp’s third season (2017-18). Mohamed Salah joined that June to make the attack even more potent, but there were still multiple horror shows at the back.

Between September and December 2017, Liverpool lost 5-0 to City at the Etihad (albeit they had 10 men for almost an hour), drew 3-3 at Sevilla having led 3-0 after 30 minutes and by the same score away to Arsenal in a game where they went from two goals up to 3-2 down in five minutes early in the second half. Also in that period was a 4-1 thrashing by Spurs in the October — a full two years after Klopp had been appointed.

The point here is that things do take time and that even if a team improve every season, as Liverpool did up until winning the title in 2019-20, there can still be troughs within those campaigns. Even a manager as good as Klopp at a club with a pedigree like Liverpool’s doesn’t get it right overnight.

It would have been impossible to imagine following that 3-3 with Arsenal in December 2017 that Liverpool would transform the following season into a winning machine who lifted the club’s sixth European Cup/Champions League while conceding just 22 league goals. In Klopp’s first three seasons that figure had been 50, 42 and 38. It was only after the signings of Virgil van Dijk and Alisson in the January and July of 2018 that Liverpool became a serious defensive team.

Both Liverpool and Arsenal are proof that while Spurs have looked very shaky at the back at times this season, that doesn’t mean they will do so forever. And in some ways, they already look more solid defensively than Liverpool did up until Van Dijk and then Alisson arrived, both more than two years into the Klopp era.

Yes, they have conceded a lot of goals and given up a lot of chances, but personnel-wise they appear to have a goalkeeper and first-choice back four well suited to what Postecoglou wants. The next stage of their development is having back-up players who can come in and not have it feel like there is both a substantial drop-off in quality and a big change stylistically, as was the case when Emerson Royal and Ben Davies replaced injured duo Pedro Porro and Destiny Udogie for the home defeat against Wolves last month.

Returning to Liverpool, where they did show signs of promise that they could become an elite team, right from Klopp’s arrival, was that on their day they could beat anyone.

Tottenham have a bit of that about them under Postecoglou, having taken five points from their three games so far against City, Liverpool and Arsenal. They’ve also won two and drawn one of their three games against Manchester United and Newcastle United, who both finished in the top four last season.

Comparing Postecoglou’s Spurs to the early days of Arteta at Arsenal is very encouraging from a Tottenham perspective.

Even if we discount the madness of that first, pandemic-skewed half-season and look at Arteta’s first full campaign in charge, we’re reminded of how long it took for him to really make his mark.

In that 2020-21 season, Arteta’s Arsenal finished eighth with 61 points — 12 below what Postecoglou’s 2023-24 Spurs are on course for. It’s hard to know precisely but it’s possible the previous season’s FA Cup triumph characterised by deep defending and three at the back meant it took longer for Arteta to instil how he wanted Arsenal to play long-term. Postecoglou has gone the other way, refusing to compromise even when his team has been injury-ravaged.

In any case, it is worth remembering just how bad Arsenal were at this point of Arteta’s reign.

They had just been beaten for the third time in their first six matches of 2020-21 and were about to embark on a dreadful run that saw them lose five and draw two of seven Premier League games.

At that point, in December 2020, Arsenal were 15th — four points above the relegation zone, having played more games than most of the teams below them. One can only imagine how mutinous the fanbase would have been had supporters been allowed in the grounds amid the ongoing restrictions on crowds designed to limit the spread of Covid-19 (of their four home games in that seven-match run, three were behind closed doors, while 2,000 fans were allowed for the other).

One also wonders how much of a clamour there would have been for Arteta to go had Arsenal lost their next game after this sequence — a 3-1 home win over Chelsea on the Boxing Day. With hindsight, it now feels a little crazy that a long-term project could hinge on just one game (in a season where, as stated above, Arsenal ultimately finished eighth, and would have almost certainly have ended up somewhere else in mid-table even if they had lost to Chelsea).

In the same way, Spurs’ 3-1 win over Palace on Saturday will probably end up being quite forgettable and is unlikely to shape the Postecoglou project, even though it felt massive at the time.

That’s where some distance can be useful — remembering that there will be setbacks in a long-term project, but it is possible to recover from them.

Even City under Pep Guardiola weren’t great in his 2016-17 debut season. They finished third with 78 points; decent, but far below what we’ve come to expect from them and not a much better points per game (2.1) average than Spurs have now (1.9).

As for Arsenal, it wasn’t until Arteta’s second full season in 2021-22 — which followed his second summer window, during which the club spent more than £150million and moved on plenty of dead wood— that there were signs of genuine progress. They ended up finishing fifth with 69 points, but only after losing their first three matches without scoring a single goal (another example of a low point even if the overall direction of travel was positive).

His third full season was when things really came together, as Arsenal led the table for most of the year before ultimately coming second behind City. Now, they are again in the title race and in the Champions League’s last 16 — after another big summer spend, this one north of £200million.

For both Klopp and Arteta, it took three years — and three summer windows — before they could even come close to Guardiola’s City team.

None of which is to say Spurs shouldn’t aim high and be looking to hunt down City sooner than that (especially if Guardiola leaves in the next year or so). But it is a reminder that squad-building takes time — and money. Postecoglou should be given plenty of the former, and so far he’s been given a hefty chunk of the latter. There appears to be an appreciation at Tottenham that his vision can only be realised if he is backed to bring in the players he wants.

This has been the case for both Klopp and Arteta. For the former, nine of his 11 starters in the 2019 Champions League final were players he had signed. In Arteta’s case, 13 of the 16 players used in Monday’s 6-0 win at Sheffield United were players he had brought in. Spurs have already moved quickly in this regard, but on Saturday, only four of their starting players were Postecoglou’s signings.

Bit by bit, window by window it should become more and more his team — and that should only be good news for Tottenham.

What does all this mean?

Well, there are going to be difficult days in this phase of the Postecoglou project. It happens — Liverpool lost at home to Palace in both of Klopp’s first two seasons. Arsenal lost at home to Burnley, Leicester City, Villa, Wolves and Everton in Arteta’s first full campaign.

None of which is to say that there are any guarantees over the next few years, or that sticking with a manager alone is a recipe for success — Erik ten Hag at Manchester United, anyone? But taking a step back is a reminder that things are pointing in the right direction, and while every case is different, the only way anyone has even nearly threatened City in the past six and a half years is to not take any shortcuts and trust in a long-term approach.

That’s what Spurs are doing with Postecoglou now. And if things go well, then the hope is that, in a few years’ time, we’ll barely be able to remember frustrating first halves like the one against Palace on Saturday.
Very good article, good reminder to take stock and see the progress we've made and that it takes time to build a title winning side. Judge us in our 3rd season under Ange and see where we are.
 

coyspurs18

Mistakes were made
Jul 4, 2013
2,604
7,136
Very good article, good reminder to take stock and see the progress we've made and that it takes time to build a title winning side. Judge us in our 3rd season under Ange and see where we are.
3rd season? I’m expecting a Treble at the minimum next season.
 

archiewasking

Waiting for silverware..........
Jul 5, 2004
7,871
11,710
Link to today's pre-Villa press conference

loved his answer at 6:55 to playing more games. I couldn't stop laughing

I also love his ambition and thoughts about CL qualification and the goals/direction of Spurs.
Thanks for the link. Incredible how he's not interested in any lesser goals than being the best. And winning. To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee "Conte? Mourinho? They're not winners." (Points at Ange) "Now THAT'S a winner!"
 

InOffMeLeftShin

Night watchman
Admin
Jan 14, 2004
15,105
9,122
I thought his press conference was one of the best he has done and he’s been great at it all year. He is so focused on the growth of the team and progressing to be the best that it makes some of the wobbles seem more manageable.
 

tevezito

In the cup for Tottingham
Jun 8, 2004
963
1,612
He just says exactly what I see myself saying if I was commandeered to do the manager's press conferences for Tottenham (in response to such inane questions),, and obviously does all the other parts of his job much better than I ever could. ;)
 

alexis

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,835
3,420
Am loving the fact that we never appear to be beaten until the final whistle is blown. Tottenham teams of the past have been known for dropping their heads when we go behind and struggling to find a way back into games, how many points this year is it from losing positions now?

The flipside of this argument is - why do we keep making things so hard for ourselves and needing impact subs to come from behind every time? I know it's hard to dominate an entire game for 90 minutes but it's not unreasonable to ask us to be on top in both halves, especially against weaker sides at home, is it not?
Definitely lack the urgency and incisiveness in our first 45 generally
 

allatsea

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
8,951
16,202
Definitely lack the urgency and incisiveness in our first 45 generally
I wonder if to some degree that is deliberate ? It allows us to contain the opposition when they are at their most intensive and then this tires them. In the second half we are then fitter/stronger than the opposition and are able to attack them better. It is IMO what happened against Crystal Palace.
 
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