Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

And nobody has thought to start a takeover story yet.

All I can say is Ange's first season in the world's strongest league and we are 5th still with a great chance of finishing in a CL place, almost certainly guaranteed a Euro competition of some kind next season, really not sure what everybody is moaning about.

Fans get too caught micro-analysing each match rather than zooming out and seeing the wider picture. Yeah getting thumped 4-0 is fucking annoying but it doesn't have to be the symptom of some fundamental issue that means Ange is doomed to failure - which seems to be the line a lot of fans seem to be pursuing.

Arteta, Klopp, and even Pep had some really dodgy results in their first few seasons. But their owners backed them and rode out the rough patches believing that in the long term their methods would bring success. We as fans need to try and exercise similar patience and remember how far we have come since this time last season.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

We've played far less games than pretty much everyone this season. I'm not buying fatigue as a legitimate excuse.

Disagree, it’s a completely new style of play which is very physically and mentally demanding and different to how we played and trained last season, a lot of our key players are only a few weeks back from injuries and some of the others had an international tournament in January, one of them even had malaria.

Also for quite a few of the players it’s their first full season in the premier league (Vicario, Porro, VDV, Udogie, Sarr etc), so they’re not used to the pace of it.

I think some physical and mental fatigue is perfectly understandable

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Fans get too caught micro-analysing each match rather than zooming out and seeing the wider picture. Yeah getting thumped 4-0 is fucking annoying but it doesn't have to be the symptom of some fundamental issue that means Ange is doomed to failure - which seems to be the line a lot of fans seem to be pursuing.

Arteta, Klopp, and even Pep had some really dodgy results in their first few seasons. But their owners backed them and rode out the rough patches believing the in the long term their methods would bring success. We as fans need to try and exercise similar patience. And remember how far we have come since this time last season.

Cup winner for Arteta bought him time.

Liverpool were utter dross before Klopp, and he made two cup finals in his first full season and finished 4th.

Pep didn't make a final in his first season, but did finish 4th.

Klopp and Pep had won the highest honours in a top 5 league.

I feel like that context is always missing when people say "klopp/Arteta/pep struggled too!"

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Disagree, it’s a completely new style of play which is very physically and mentally demanding and different to how we played and trained last season, a lot of our key players are only a few weeks back from injuries and some of the others had an international tournament in January, one of them even had malaria.

Also for quite a few of the players it’s their first full season in the premier league (Vicario, Porro, VDV, Udogie, Sarr etc), so they’re not used to the pace of it.

I think some physical and mental fatigue is perfectly understandable

Typically high press teams keep the energy levels up for the first season and they go down over time due to fatigue.

In short, we should be dealing with the demands of a high press best now.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Typically high press teams keep the energy levels up for the first season and they go down over time due to fatigue.

In short, we should be dealing with the demands of a high press best now.

As I said it’s a completely different style of play and training to what most of these players were doing last season so it wouldn’t work that way round in this case.

It’s like weight training at the gym having never done it before, at first it’s hard then you plateau and fatigue, then you push through again.

See all my others points also which are effecting a lot of our players, as you seem to have ignored them.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

As I said it’s a completely different style of play and training to what most of these players were doing last season so it wouldn’t work that way round in this case.

It’s like weight training at the gym having never done it before, at first it’s hard then you plateau and fatigue, then you push through again.

See all my others points also which are effecting a lot of our players, as you seem to have ignored them.

I strongly doubt "mental fatigue" is an issue when they train about 24 hours a week.

If that was an issue then most people in this country would be dead from their 40hr+ work weeks.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Cup winner for Arteta bought him time.

Liverpool were utter dross before Klopp, and he made two cup finals in his first full season and finished 4th.

Pep didn't make a final in his first season, but did finish 4th.

Klopp and Pep had won the highest honours in a top 5 league.

I feel like that context is always missing when people say "klopp/Arteta/pep struggled too!"

Arteta had no previous experience of managing a football team. Lucking his way to a trophy in his first season was no reason to stick with him considering some of the dire results and league finishes they had in the following seasons.

Liverpool were no more dross than we were when Ange took over. Only a couple seasons before they had been in a title race.

Pep finishing 4th in his first season was an underachievement considering he took over a team with a infinite resources.

The constant is that they were all given time with the long term in mind.

Yes this is the highest level Ange has competed at but it's not a given that he should be competing for top 4, most fans and pundits had us finishing top 6-8 at best after losing Kane. Now all of sudden a lot seem in the doldrums that we're not pushing top 4. Surely the fact he has made such a positive impact in less than a season is a reason to have faith that he can continue to manage the team to improve?

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Arteta had no previous experience of managing a football team. Lucking his way to a trophy in his first season was no reason to stick with him considering some of the dire results and league finishes they had in the following seasons.

Liverpool were no more dross than we were when Ange took over. Only a couple seasons before they had been in a title race.

Pep finishing 4th in first season was underachievement considering he took over a team with a infinite resources.

The constant is that they were all given time with the long term in mind. Yes this is the highest level Ange has competed at but it's not a given that he should be competing for top 4, most fans and pundits had us finishing top 6-8 at best after losing Kane. Now all of sudden a lot seem in the doldrums that we're not pushing top 4. Surely the fact he has made such a positive impact in less than a season is a reason to have faith that he can continue to manage the team to improve?

Made no mention of what Arteta achieved before Arsenal.

He won a trophy. That buys him time.

Our first 11 this season dicks on Klopps first 11 from his first season. Still made it to two finals.

Pep traded on being the most successful football manager in Europe for the past 5+ years.

These are all things Ange doesn't have, and all reasons for why they were afforded time.

 

[Styopa]

Made no mention of what Arteta achieved before Arsenal.

He won a trophy. That buys him time.

Our first 11 this season dicks on Klopps first 11 from his first season. Still made it to two finals.

Pep traded on being the most successful football manager in Europe for the past 5+ years.

These are all things Ange doesn't have, and all reasons for why they were afforded time.

I think you’re right about some of this but winning a cup only buys so much time. We sacked two coaches shortly after winning a trophy and we sacked one coach a few months after making the final of the biggest club competition in the world. Roma sacked Jose a few months after he was in a final and less than two years after winning a cup.

Arsenal went above and beyond what most clubs would have been willing to put up with in terms of Arteta, especially since Arsenal had won several FA Cups in the years immediately preceding his arrival. It wasn’t a situation like ours where we haven’t won anything for years.

 

[Trix]

Fans get too caught micro-analysing each match rather than zooming out and seeing the wider picture. Yeah getting thumped 4-0 is fucking annoying but it doesn't have to be the symptom of some fundamental issue that means Ange is doomed to failure - which seems to be the line a lot of fans seem to be pursuing.

Arteta, Klopp, and even Pep had some really dodgy results in their first few seasons. But their owners backed them and rode out the rough patches believing that in the long term their methods would bring success. We as fans need to try and exercise similar patience and remember how far we have come since this time last season.

Which ones mate? Seen very little of that myself and certainly not on here.

By "a lot of fans" do you mean one or two by any chance?

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I think you’re right about some of this but winning a cup only buys so much time. We sacked two coaches shortly after winning a trophy and we sacked one coach a few months after making the final of the biggest club competition in the world. Roma sacked Jose a few months after he was in a final and less than two years after winning a cup.

Arsenal went above and beyond what most clubs would have been willing to put up with in terms of Arteta, especially since Arsenal had won several FA Cups in the years immediately preceding his arrival. It wasn’t a situation like ours where we haven’t won anything for years.

I suppose you could add 'club legend' to the Arteta point.

 

[Styopa]

I suppose you could add 'club legend' to the Arteta point.

Was he a club legend? He did pretty well there but I’m not sure he reached legendary status? But anyway, I get your point, and I think you’re right: there was probably a bit more goodwill towards him given his playing history for the club. Although lots of Arsenal fans seemed to be wavering before last season.

 

[Trix]

I strongly doubt "mental fatigue" is an issue when they train about 24 hours a week.

If that was an issue then most people in this country would be dead from their 40hr+ work weeks.

There is a very different level of constant focus, expectation and scrutiny on a premier league footballer than there is a telemarketer or forklift driver. Mental fatigue is more plausible than physical fatigue as far as we are concerned, but it's part and parcel of the game at the top level. If it's an excuse for us then it's an excuse for every team at the top end of the Prem and they don't seem to be struggling.

 

[jurgen]

Subjective arguments about relative team strength, and fatigue (and the average working week??) aside.. the facts are:

Season before Klopp's arrival, Liverpool finished 6th - so if we conveniently ignore Klopp's 8th place where he only managed a 'mere' 30 games, as you want to, he then took them from 6th-4th.

Pep took a side that finished 4th the previous year to 3rd.

Arteta took a side that finished 5th and took them to 8th.

Ange looks to be taking a side that finished 8th into 5th/4th.

In terms of prior league finishes, Ange has inherited the weakest team, but we are potentially going to have the biggest positive jump this season (though we can accept improving gets progressively harder the higher you go, of course).

 

[Gassin's finest]

I suppose you could add 'club legend' to the Arteta point.

More a playing legend at Everton.

 

[jurgen]

Was he a club legend? He did pretty well there but I’m not sure he reached legendary status? But anyway, I get your point, and I think you’re right: there was probably a bit more goodwill towards him given his playing history for the club. Although lots of Arsenal fans seemed to be wavering before last season.

He wasn't a club legend and he isn't a good example of fans buying into the manager, it's a good example of the upper management sticking with a course of action in the face of pressure. He'd have been toast if they followed the fan voice.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

More a playing legend at Everton.

Everton fans didn't like him after he moved to arsenal.

Arsenal fans still loved him from his playing days

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Which ones mate? Seen very little of that myself and certainly not on here.

By "a lot of fans" do you mean one or two by any chance?

No I mean ‘a lot of fans’ in various threads on here, and widely on social media. I admit it’s definitely not a majority, but narratives are being formed and double downed on now we have extended break before our next fixture.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

No I mean ‘a lot of fans’ in various threads on here, and widely on social media. I admit it’s definitely not a majority, but narratives are being formed and double downed on now we have extended break before our next fixture.

You'd have to link the Ange out posts I think.

I've personally only seen one which was on a match thread.

And match threads don't really count.

Emotions are too high.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Arteta had no previous experience of managing a football team. Lucking his way to a trophy in his first season was no reason to stick with him considering some of the dire results and league finishes they had in the following seasons.

Liverpool were no more dross than we were when Ange took over. Only a couple seasons before they had been in a title race.

Pep finishing 4th in his first season was an underachievement considering he took over a team with a infinite resources.

The constant is that they were all given time with the long term in mind.

Yes this is the highest level Ange has competed at but it's not a given that he should be competing for top 4, most fans and pundits had us finishing top 6-8 at best after losing Kane. Now all of sudden a lot seem in the doldrums that we're not pushing top 4. Surely the fact he has made such a positive impact in less than a season is a reason to have faith that he can continue to manage the team to improve?

Great post