Harry Winks - Leicester City

[Trotter]

Nah, you're wrong mate.

He's better than any deep center mid we have, with hopeful exception of Ndombele, at moving the ball competently and efficiently. Against Newcastle he was miles ahead of everyone with passing, a majority of them forward passes, and 94% success rate. You can argue those were very safe passes, but I wouldn't agree. The issue was kwp, rose, moura, son, lamela, and kane didn't take anyone on often enough or cross early enough. Those aren't winks' jobs. I'd prefer if he broke forward more, but he may be under instruction not to get ahead of the ball.

His role in the side is to get people in position to do damage. They have the harder job, but he can't do it for them.

If 3 out of 136 in respect of forward passes is now what is classified as a majority, then I will agree with you.
The remainder of the passes you are claiming are sideways, one yard forward because where the full back is standing compared to where he was is not a forward pass, or when he was leading a 40 pass side to side move 10 yards outside their box, when the crowd were yelling, "For fucks sake, can one of you just f***ing shoot", before the move inevitably broke down and they had quick counter-attack.

Not sure there are many other jobs where the team performed well before I joined, as a whole performance of the team are weaker when I am in it, the team still performs to a much better standard when I am not there, that I would survive in, let alone have other people say it is everybody elses's fault that we don't perform well when I am there.

jolsnogross (or Harry's mum, whichever you prefer). how many of those passes were what are classified as "key passes" ?
I mean surely if he makes so many passes in the opposition half, some of them would be, surely they wouldn't all be "meaningless"

 

[JimmyG2]

You don't seem to realise when they do stats, they put a forward pass as one that goes forward even a slight bit, when technically it is a sideways pass. You are the one with the boggled mind if you have to rely on stats to tell people Winks passes forward.

He is terrible at passing forward. I've watched every single first team he's played, he is Mr sideways and backwards. I don't need stats to tell me what my eyes see.

Another stat - most completed final third passes in a PL match, a record! Wow! Amazing! The Man City and Liverpool midfielders must be quaking in their boots. Did you watch the game? Those successful passes in the final third were mostly 5 yard passes sideways to Sissoko. That is the thing with stats, they only tell you half the story. try watching the game.

You will realise when Winks is eventually dropped either by Poch, or another manager.

So now a forward pass
has to pass the Primativ test
to actually count
and successful passes in the final third
don't count if they're to a team-mate
if it's Sissoko.

Re-defining football as we speak.

 

[Primativ]

So now a forward pass
has to pass the Primativ test
to actually count
and successful passes in the final third
don't count if they're to a team-mate
if it's Sissoko.

Re-defining football as we speak.

Not at all, all I ask is use your eyes. You can't tell me Winks played 99 forward passes against Newcastle? If so, you are being deliberately obtuse. I am talking about forward incisive passes, not slow passes out to the sides and back again (which the stats include as forward passes). If someone wants to show me a highlights video of Winks v Newcastle which shows all of his forward passes to prove me wrong, be my guest, but in fact I bet the video will show nearly all of them are slow pedestrian passes sideways.

 

[JimmyG2]

Not at all, all I ask is use your eyes. You can't tell me Winks played 99 forward passes against Newcastle? If so, you are being deliberately obtuse. I am talking about forward incisive passes, not slow passes out to the sides and back again (which the stats include as forward passes). If someone wants to show me a highlights video of Winks v Newcastle which shows all of his forward passes to prove me wrong, be my guest, but in fact I bet the video will show nearly all of them are slow pedestrian passes sideways.

So now the forward pass
has to be 'incisive'
to count.
If they're slow
or not far enough forward they don't count.
Right. Got it.

I didn't tell you anything
there's clearly no need.

 

[Timberwolf]

Not at all, all I ask is use your eyes. You can't tell me Winks played 99 forward passes against Newcastle? If so, you are being deliberately obtuse. I am talking about forward incisive passes, not slow passes out to the sides and back again (which the stats include as forward passes). If someone wants to show me a highlights video of Winks v Newcastle which shows all of his forward passes to prove me wrong, be my guest, but in fact I bet the video will show nearly all of them are slow pedestrian passes sideways.

I think another part of the problem is that against Newcastle, Sissoko was largely doing the same thing as Winks only worse. His poor technique slowed our passing moves down even more, and barring one or two bursts forward he was just as conservative as WInks in possession. If we play Winks against defensive teams we really need someone more forward thinking and progressive like Ndombele alongside him to find those gaps and make things happen. We also need someone better than Lamela playing between the lines as he looked completely out of ideas against Newcastle. There's only so much we can blame the wide players - it looks like they're instructed not to cross or hug the touchline so I don't know what they're really supposed to do against a packed defence. And if they run around and give us the movement we're crying out for, some fucker actually has to pass the ball to them or else they're wasting energy. These problems are more due to Poch's selection than to Winks.

That then begs the quesiton, can we get away with Winks and Ndombele as a CM2? Neither are that brilliant off the ball and while someone said Winks is an effective screen, I think we all know that, while he's mobile, the defensive side of his game is distinctly average at best. We can probably get away with it against the likes of Newcastle but it would leave us very vulnerable against better footballing sides.

 

[Trotter]

Nah, you're wrong mate.

His role in the side is to get people in position to do damage. They have the harder job, but he can't do it for them.

So let's get this straight.
His role is not to defend. (because his defensive stats are absolutely woeful)
His role is not to attack. (because his goals and assist and even key passes stats are absolutely woeful)
His role is not to set the tempo according to you (because it is so slow, and that would mean he is failing)
But his role has now been ameded to get other people in position. (which they are apparently not doing, so he is failing),
Talk about having zero responsibility or accountability according to you.

Make it sound as if he should be working at the airport directing the planes to the gates. And surely these other players know what their roles are, as they display on the occasions when this "director of traffic" is not playing.
Just for the record it is the manager's job to get people in position to do the damage.

I wonder what his role will be amended to next week, by those that cannot justify what value he brings.
Now personally I believe his role is to set the tempo, but also contribute to our attacking and defensive play (unless he is only player basically in history of football that isn't required to), he has not done it very well. A bit of Jack of all trades, master of one (passing the ball and responsibility to the nearest person to him)

 

[Haddock]

It doesn't matter if Winks is the most promising young "Regista" in the world if we're aren't in need of that type of player. The fact is that Kane, Alli, Son, Lucas etc aren't really suited to that kind of football anyway, at least in my opinion. We've played our best football when we had a strategy based around high pressing, lots of movement and fast direct interplay. I do rate Winks but I'm not sure his skillset is necessary or ideal.

It's really that simple.

 

[Primativ]

That then begs the quesiton, can we get away with Winks and Ndombele as a CM2? Neither are that brilliant off the ball and while someone said Winks is an effective screen, I think we all know that, while he's mobile, the defensive side of his game is distinctly average at best. We can probably get away with it against the likes of Newcastle but it would leave us very vulnerable against better footballing sides.

I don't think we can, because we will be too open defensively. Ndombele is a class above Winks with the ball at his feet so the obvious one to make way for a more defensive minded CM is Winks. As we have said, Winks offers nothing that Ndombele doesn't.

 

[thebenjamin]

I find Harry Winks to be more effective in bigger games, where it's more nip and tuck in midfield, as his standout strength -- taking balls under extreme pressure and recycling possession into space for a team mate -- is a key commodity. Agasint a 10 behind the ball blanket defence he can look a bit sideways as he isn't a hollywood through ball type player. Obviously he didn't play great against City, but in general his best performances have come against the top sides.

 

[double0]

Winks needs to add long range shooting and more forward passes but for me he needs a better partnership in certain games. It's all well and good recycling the ball to Ndombele Eriksen Sissoko but I feel there's more to him and he needs to show more ...I'd like to see Dier Winks partnership with Winks being a bit more progressive in certain games.

 

[hellava_tough]

He's a young lad trying to be loyal and committed in a confused tactical system.

Once we sort out our strategy and there's a better atmosphere in the squad, I think he'll start playing better.

 

[Trotter]

Winks needs to add long range shooting and more forward passes but for me he needs a better partnership in certain games. It well and good he recycles the ball to Ndombele Eriksen Sissoko but I feel there's more to him...I'd like to see Dier Winks partnership with Winks being a bit more progressive

Who would you drop in that scenario Ndombele ?
I wouldn't want to drop any of Kane, Alli, Son, Eriksen or Ndombele to shoehorn in a WInks/Dier partnership. For me it is one or the other, and Dier just brings way much more to the party, and that is still excluding Sissoko and Lo Celso.

Piece on Sky Sports today showing Spurs have completed most amount of backwards and sideways passes in the Legue

 

[double0]

I am big Eric Dier fan. For me he is underrated. He's a very smart footballer and allows for better fluidity for in game system change what I mean by that he can drop into a three allowing our fullbacks to push further forward as well he can play the pivot in a two man midfield a Diamond or 3 In midfield. I feel Diers passes are better varied he can hit long range passes can take free kicks and can be decent attacking cross. Of course Ndombele has a world class ceiling so he should be first choice on form. I'd like to see Winks being more brave I really see a quality player and that might mean a system change or better selected partnership in certain (keyword) games

 

[Primativ]

Piece on Sky Sports today showing Spurs have completed most amount of backwards and sideways passes in the Legue

? It just shows doesn’t it, the problem is clearly Winks. If we had some better in there who can pass between the lines we would be doing much better.

 

[JimmyG2]

? It just shows doesn’t it, the problem is clearly Winks. If we had some better in there who can pass between the lines we would be doing much better.

Have you explained all this to Pep
who has made a coaching career out of
retaining possession,recycling the ball
pursuing the theory
that when you've got the ball
your opponents can't score.
If only we had a player call Eriksen.
It's a team game.

If only Christian could tackle
Sissoko could shoot,

Did Winksey ignore your autograph book sometime.

 

[theShiznit]

I think we should play Hugo in midfield.

Apparently there was a stat that says he has no backward passes this season.

If he's not part of the problem he's part of the solution...

Also love the way that Tottenham stat has been changed into a winks stat

No agendas there then...

 

[JimmyG2]

Called up for England I see.
I know England are so crap
that your Granny would star
and England managers
are fools to a man.

But
and I say this with all humility
he must be doing something right.
Not passing forward obviously
but something.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Called up for England I see.
I know England are so crap
that your Granny would star
and England managers
are fools to a man.

But
and I say this with all humility
he must be doing something right.
Not passing forward obviously
but something.

It was apparent in the nations league and World Cup, that England miss a player that can put his foot on the ball, take the ball in tight areas and look to dictate play. Other countries such as Holland - who have 2 in their starting lineup in De Jong and Wjinaldum - value these types of players. Whereas historically in this country unless a central mid is a Bryan robson or gerrard all action type, but with a lack of finesse they tend to be discarded as only ‘passing side wards or back wards’. Hence the criminally low amount of caps for Carrick. Hopefully Southgate doesn’t make the same mistake with Winks...

 

[markiespurs]

Hard for Winks to make forward passes when there’s bugger all movement in front of him.

 

[Locotoro]

Our team has suffered ever since we've not had a fit and capable anchor (Dier or Wanyama). That's not the fault of Winks.