Harry Kane

[rossdapep]

My take on why Kane has had to drop deeper in recent seasons is because the quality of the team behind him has diminished pretty drastically. When we were flying under Poch we had a dominant midfield of peak Dembele partnered with a competent DM and an in-form Eriksen -- not to mention pacey fullbacks who stretched opposing back lines and created space for the attackers to operate in.

Over the past two seasons we've had no Dembele (nor any adequate replacement as yet), no recognized DM whatsoever, and our primary midfield playmaker has either been disillusioned with the club (in the case of Eriksen), or not yet settled and consistently struggling with injury (in the case of Lo Celso). The fullbacks have also declined precipitously.

All this means that we don't have as much control of games as we once did, and that our play is more congested. Kane has been forced to drop deep not because that is how he's best utilized, but because that's been the only way for him to get involved. I really don't see it as optimal by any means.

As @C0YS mentioned he has a 11 game sample size, 7 goals, average of 24 in a 38 match season, I don't think there anything to worry about personally, also it seems like people are acting as if he's coming off his 2016/18 seasons, his last full season he hit 17 and he has 11 this season.

What's more Poch pretty much had Kane playing a lot deeper than he played in those seasons and had the likes of Lucas and Son to do his running for him, I heard the exact same arguments in the last two years when people were saying that Kane is playing too deep, the truth is maybe managers are starting to utilisie him outside the box more because that's where he is at his most dangerous.

I think you've both hit the nail on the head. I was about to study Kane's record with Jose before injury as I think its important to highlight but I don't need to now haha.

It does show though that there is life there and he had a couple of good games in which he looked more like his usual self and was high up the pitch (Norwich/West Ham/Burnley).

I think people have to remember he's been injured on/off for 2 years now and this also transpired at the same time as the team regressing. He was never going to be hitting those numbers with all this going on.

I'll make a bet now. If he stays fit and our performances are like first half vs United, he'll start racking up goals again.

There's this belief that to be a 20-odd goal scorer in a counter attack team you need pace and to play on the shoulder all the time, which is wrong. Kane will be the player linking the attack counter, then he'll be the player arriving into the penalty area at the right time - not all counter attacks are about the quick player getting in on goal.

Secondly, Kane's strengths never were that anyway, his strengths have always been timing runs into the area, shooting from all angles, headers and finding space for shots in the area - which I believe we will still do under Jose.

The example of Zlatan is the best one, a player who never had the pace to play on the shoulder but was always a bully in and around the area. That's what Kane will be.

 

[dtxspurs]

Also let's see Kane under Jose shall we.

Kane
11 games 7 goals under Jose. Pretty good record, averaging 24 goals in a 38 game season. Average for Kane, for almost anyone else that's amazing.

PL record with Kane

5 wins, 3 loses, 2 draws = 17 points in 10 games. 1.7 points per game. Total 65 points in a season
goals scored 19 = 1.9 goals a game
Without Kane
3 Wins, 3 loses 2 draws = 11 points in 7 games 1.5 points per game. Total would be 57
goals scored 11 = 1.6 goals a game


OK not a big enough sample really. But from what we see in the PL we do better with Kane, or don't do significantly worse at least!

To follow up with some more statistics. Goals are goals I understand that.

He's scored against West Ham, Burnley (2), Brighton, Norwich, Olympiacos (2).

Against ManU twice & Chelsea under Jose he had 1 total shot on target across 270 minutes of action.

 

[spursfan77]

Mourinho is just trying to protect his player. For those of you panicking about his goals I will repost what I posted last week from the Athletic on him after coming back from injury. Add to what’s below the two derbies we play, which he loves scoring in:


Kane is also someone who has generally performed well when returning from injury — even if it’s been during the middle of a season. There are nine games left this season — in comparison, Kane scored six goals in his first nine games for club and country when coming back from an ankle ligament injury in February last season. He recorded the same tally in his first nine matches when coming back from an ankle injury in April 2018, and posted 11 in nine when returning from another ankle injury in April 2017.

In short, goals will come.

 

[JayB]

To follow up with some more statistics. Goals are goals I understand that.

He's scored against West Ham, Burnley (2), Brighton, Norwich, Olympiacos (2).

Against ManU twice & Chelsea under Jose he had 1 total shot on target across 270 minutes of action.

It's that last part that's most worrying. Kane has been peripheral in matches where we need him to be the main man.

Hopefully once Ndombele and Lo Celso are fully fit and integrated, and fingers crossed we actually add a competent DM to the side for the first time in three seasons, we'll see him get more of the ball in and around the box where he can do some real damage next season.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

It's that last part that's most worrying. Kane has been peripheral in matches where we need him to be the main man.

Hopefully once Ndombele and Lo Celso are fully fit and integrated, and fingers crossed we actually add a competent DM to the side for the first time in three seasons, we'll see him get more of the ball in and around the box where he can do some real damage next season.

So it's only worrying where one part of a stat fits your argument?

 

[JayB]

So it's only worrying where one part of a stat fits your argument?

How could it possibly not be worrying? It's hardly news that Harry Kane scores goals against shit sides, it is unusual on the other hand that he's been barely involved in our most important matches. Throughout his career he's been a big game player, and we're not getting that out of him this season.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

How could it possibly not be worrying? It's hardly news that Harry Kane scores goals against shit sides, it is unusual on the other hand that he's been barely involved in our most important matches. Throughout his career he's been a big game player, and we're not getting that out of him this season.

I'd be more concerned if he wasn't putting the 'shit' teams to the sword. Perhaps the ideal of not placing the burden on one players shoulders all the time (like we have come accustomed to with Kane) is the way forward.

 

[dudu]

How could it possibly not be worrying? It's hardly news that Harry Kane scores goals against shit sides, it is unusual on the other hand that he's been barely involved in our most important matches. Throughout his career he's been a big game player, and we're not getting that out of him this season.

An article I saw (written in Jan) said Harry Kane had 6 goals against the others in the big 6 since the start of 2017/2018

 

[JayB]

I'd be more concerned if he wasn't putting the 'shit' teams to the sword. Perhaps the ideal of not placing the burden on one players shoulders all the time (like we have come accustomed to with Kane) is the way forward.

Read back over the past two pages of this thread and you'll see a discussion of whether the manner in which Mourinho has used Kane against top sides is well suited to Kane's attributes. Nobody is saying he's finished, or that he won't get goals in matches where we have lots of the ball, we're questioning whether we're getting the most out of him in our most difficult matches where we're setting up on the counter.

An article I saw (written in Jan) said Harry Kane had 6 goals against the others in the big 6 since the start of 2017/2018

That's an interesting stat and pretty much coincides with the decline of our midfield and fullbacks. Being in a position where Kane has to drop deep and focus on the buildup in order to get involved is not a recipe for success IMO. If Ndombele and Lo Celso come good and are partnered with a functional DM we'll be a different prospect.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Read back over the past two pages of this thread and you'll see a discussion of whether the manner in which Mourinho has used Kane against top sides is well suited to Kane's attributes. Nobody is saying he's finished, or that he won't get goals in matches where we have lots of the ball, we're questioning whether we're getting the most out of him in our most difficult matches where we're setting up on the counter.

The interesting stat would suggest it has less to do with Mourinho though, no?

 

[JayB]

The interesting stat would suggest it has less to do with Mourinho though, no?

I wouldn't say so, if Poch didn't get the best out of Kane against top teams that doesn't somehow let Mourinho off the hook for the same failing. The underlying causes -- namely that the team behind him is basically shit compared to what it was years ago so he has to drop deeper -- may be the same, but if the tactics we're using now aren't getting the best out of him then it's a problem worth considering. Kane's total lack of involvement in the United match is a legitimate concern.

No matter how you look at it, we need to set up such that Kane is getting on the end of chances. The fact that that hasn't happened for some time doesn't somehow make it less of a concern in the present.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

I wouldn't say so, if Poch didn't get the best out of Kane against top teams that doesn't somehow let Mourinho off the hook for the same failing. The underlying causes -- namely that the team behind him is basically shit compared to what it was years ago so he has to drop deeper -- may be the same, but if the tactics we're using now aren't getting the best out of him then it's a problem worth considering. Kane's total lack of involvement in the United match is a legitimate concern.

No matter how you look at it, we need to set up such that Kane is getting on the end of chances. The fact that that hasn't happened for some time doesn't somehow make it less of a concern in the present.

Yes but the reason this was brought up was because of Mourinho and his tactics (Merson over the weekend) which Jose responded to today ... If it goes further back then just the three games against United and Chelsea it wouldn't be Mourinho's tactics forcing him out the club alone ...

The fact he did score in those games mentioned above while playing under Jose's tactics would suggest it's not as bigger problem as people are making out ...

Fucking hell I feel like I am pissing in the wind here.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Tell you what I would question - the kind of striker that people think we need to back Kane up with if all these tactics are all over the place. I mean, do we need a striker in the mould of Vardy? Another Kane type? Someone more like Fernando? Smaller, more pace and ability to interchange with whoever maybe flanking them?

Can of pandora's worms.

 

[JayB]

Yes but the reason this was brought up was because of Mourinho and his tactics (Merson over the weekend) which Jose responded to today ... If it goes further back then just the three games against United and Chelsea it wouldn't be Mourinho's tactics forcing him out the club alone ...

The fact he did score in those games mentioned above while playing under Jose's tactics would suggest it's not as bigger problem as people are making out ...

Fucking hell I feel like I am pissing in the wind here.

Poch's failings are immaterial to whether Mourinho's setup is getting the best out of Kane. The question at hand here is whether the style that we adopted against United, and which we can reasonably expect will be used in other similar matches, is suited to Kane.

There's a fundamental difference between matches against the likes of Olympiakos and the likes of United. Against Olympiakos in November we had 57% possession, against United last week it was 37%. Nobody is questioning whether Kane will score goals when we have loads of possession in our own attacking third, we're talking about whether it's ideal for his only involvement to be with his back to goal at the half-way line.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Poch's failings are immaterial to whether Mourinho's setup is getting the best out of Kane. The question at hand here is whether the style that we adopted against United, and which we can reasonably expect will be used in other similar matches, is suited to Kane.

There's a fundamental difference between matches against the likes of Olympiakos and the likes of United. Against Olympiakos in November we had 57% possession, against United last week it was 37%. Nobody is questioning whether Kane will score goals when we have loads of possession in our own attacking third, we're talking about whether it's ideal for his only involvement to be with his back to goal at the half-way line.

Well, then it'll come down to what is best for him vs what's best for the team .... Personally I don't see this as an issue. Others obviously do.

 

[JayB]

Well, then it'll come down to what is best for him vs what's best for the team .... Personally I don't see this as an issue. Others obviously do.

If it produces results I won't complain, but we aren't yet getting results. I'll just reiterate that I think we're most likely to get results when our tactics are producing moments where Kane gets on the end of chances on a regular basis, which simply hasn't been the case yet under Mourinho in big matches.

As @rossdapep pointed out above, and which I agree with, we can create chances for Kane on the counter so long as he's arriving the in the box at the appropriate time. Hopefully once Lo Celso and Ndombele are fully integrated they'll be the ones feeding the balls into the channels so that Kane can make those runs on the front foot. I don't think the situation is hopeless by any means, but that doesn't mean it isn't something that needs to be addressed.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

If it produces results I won't complain, but we aren't yet getting results. I'll just reiterate that I think we're most likely to get results when our tactics are producing moments where Kane gets on the end of chances on a regular basis, which simply hasn't been the case yet under Mourinho in big matches.

As @rossdapep pointed out above, and which I agree with, we can create chances for Kane on the counter so long as he's arriving the in the box at the appropriate time. Hopefully once Lo Celso and Ndombele are fully integrated they'll be the ones feeding the balls into the channels so that Kane can make those runs on the front foot. I don't think the situation is hopeless by any means, but that doesn't mean it isn't something that needs to be addressed.

But (taking @dudu stat)

"An article I saw (written in Jan) said Harry Kane had 6 goals against the others in the big 6 since the start of 2017/2018"

We're going in circles to a degree ... This isn't a new thing.

I'll move on, concede the fact we all want Kane scoring goals especially in the big games and I'll genuflect in hope that it clicks as soon as the rust as worn off.

 

[JayB]

But (taking @dudu stat)

"An article I saw (written in Jan) said Harry Kane had 6 goals against the others in the big 6 since the start of 2017/2018"

We're going in circles to a degree ... This isn't a new thing.

I'll move on, concede the fact we all want Kane scoring goals especially in the big games and I'll genuflect in hope that it clicks as soon as the rust as worn off.

Right, I'm not suggesting that the problem of Kane not getting on the end of chances in big matches is new per se. I'm saying that based on what we saw against United it's still a big problem, and moreover that it's currently at least partially a function of how Kane is being used. Obviously we all want it to improve.

 

[Shadydan]

It's a problem if you think what we saw based on the Utd game will be our absolute level which is a small sample size, much smaller than the size in the amount of matches he's played in under Jose (11) and goals (7)which is what you should be basing it on.

 

[JayB]

It's a problem if you think what we saw based on the Utd game will be our absolute level which is a small sample size, much smaller than the size in the amount of matches he's played in under Jose (11) and goals (7)which is what you should be basing it on.

The real relevant sample size here is the matches in which Kane has played under Mourinho in which we've set up on the counter. I do agree that it's too small a sample size to draw conclusions, but that doesn't mean that questions can't be raised based on what we're seeing.

The upshot, for me, is that we've got to make sure that Kane is getting on the end of chances and not merely contributing to the buildup if we want to be at our most threatening. One shot in three full matches against Chelsea and United is worrying, even if there are extenuating circumstances and it's a small sample size.

This season may go down as a writeoff based primarily on Ndombele and Lo Celso, who are obviously a huge part of our future, not yet being settled and fully integrated. I do think that once they are fixtures in the side it will be much easier for Kane to arrive in the box at the right time for cutbacks because the work of receiving the ball under pressure and getting it out wide will be more evenly spread out.

I'm not catastrophizing or saying it's hopeless, but Mourinho is going to have to make sure that Kane is set up for success when we're playing as we did against United. I think it's fair to question whether he's accomplished that so far, even if there's reason to hope it will improve as time goes on.