Harry Kane

[C0YS]

Think his numbers on Drogba isn't quite right though, he only scored 100 for Chelsea in total, 156 appearances maybe!

He scored 100 PL goals, Jose is talking about overall goals.

Some of the comments on this forum are crazy and contradictory. From what I gather we need a whole new team. Seemingly every player, apart from a few, need selling. Crazy. What makes it even stranger is some of the same people pushing this unprecedented player turnover are the same who think we should be doing much better than we are. You can't really have it both ways.

Willingly selling Kane would be the most illogical stupid thing. Particularly as there aren't that many good number 9s out there. Honestly, even big clubs are lacking something there or play without one. I guess we could try playing without one, but if we did we would probably need a new manager. Jose has never managed a team without one.

 

[JayB]

I haven't read what Merson is saying (nor am I going to), but I do question whether the current version of Kane is suited to a counterattacking setup. In theory you'd think that a pacey striker, a Vardy type, would be best as the tip of the spear when you're trying to hit teams quickly in transition. It's not a coincidence that Kane didn't get on the end of any of those counterattacks against United, he just isn't pacey enough for the job. I honestly do doubt whether he's suited to a manager who is perfectly content to concede possession.

 

[Gbspurs]

He scored 100 PL goals, Jose is talking about overall goals.

Some of the comments on this forum are crazy and contradictory. From what I gather we need a whole new team. Seemingly every player, apart from a few, need selling. Crazy. What makes it even stranger is some of the same people pushing this unprecedented player turnover are the same who think we should be doing much better than we are. You can't really have it both ways.

Willingly selling Kane would be the most illogical stupid thing. Particularly as there aren't that many good number 9s out there. Honestly, even big clubs are lacking something there or play without one. I guess we could try playing without one, but if we did we would probably need a new manager. Jose has never managed a team without one.

Yeah I agree. Personally I wouldn't sell Kane for anything because of what he represents. All clubs need a 1 club player every so often to keep the dream alive for young fans and the fact we have one who is one of the worlds most respected number 9s and national team captain is amazing.

Unfortunately fans struggle to manage expectations and won't allow players any slight dip in form these days. I think alot of it is due to the stat culture. As a kid I don't remember ever hearing commentators talk how many games Sheringham had gone without a goal or his goals per minute ratios, we just loved him and cheered every goal. Maybe it's because I was young and these conversations were happening but this constant death by stats is annoying.

 

[teok]

This is what he said:

Speaking on Sky Sports’ Soccer Saturday, Merson admitted that he has long had doubts about Kane under Mourinho.

“When Jose took the job I worried for Harry Kane,” Merson said. “He played under [Mauricio] Pochettino and Tottenham had a go wherever they went. There were goals, there were crosses, there were shots.

“He’s going to be playing up front on his own and it is going to be hard work. In the end he is trying to hit 60-yard passes just to get involved in the game and that’s not Harry Kane.

“He’s not fit, he’s definitely not fit, they played virtually with 10 men, I can’t remember how many times he touched the ball in the whole game.”

What’s more, Merson said Kane could seriously consider moving on if Mourinho ends up driving him away from north London.

“I think he’ll have a serious think at the end of the season, I really do,” he added.

“I don’t see him getting 25-30 goals a season the way Jose will want to play, and he [Mourinho] won’t want to play like it was when he first got in there, 4-2s and 5-3s, no way.

“He’ll like those games last night, the 1-1s.”

 

[Shadydan]

I haven't read what Merson is saying (nor am I going to), but I do question whether the current version of Kane is suited to a counterattacking setup. In theory you'd think that a pacey striker, a Vardy type, would be best as the tip of the spear when you're trying to hit teams quickly in transition. It's not a coincidence that Kane didn't get on the end of any of those counterattacks against United, he just isn't pacey enough for the job. I honestly do doubt whether he's suited to a manager who is perfectly content to concede possession.

This is the point that Mourinho was kind of countering though, if you look at the past records of strikers, bar Ronaldo (who didn't even play as a striker) they all hit a healthy number of goals, I actually think it's just pure laziness to call his style counter attacking, he sets up to cede possession in the big matches yes but generally his teams play on the front foot against the smaller teams or teams that he knows they can dominate.

Kane will play further up the pitch in the majority of matches and once we are up to speed we will dominate a bit more, I just think people are seeing this version of current Spurs and think this will be our final form.

 

[C0YS]

Also let's see Kane under Jose shall we.

Kane
11 games 7 goals under Jose. Pretty good record, averaging 24 goals in a 38 game season. Average for Kane, for almost anyone else that's amazing.

PL record with Kane

5 wins, 3 loses, 2 draws = 17 points in 10 games. 1.7 points per game. Total 65 points in a season
goals scored 19 = 1.9 goals a game
Without Kane
3 Wins, 3 loses 2 draws = 11 points in 7 games 1.5 points per game. Total would be 57
goals scored 11 = 1.6 goals a game


OK not a big enough sample really. But from what we see in the PL we do better with Kane, or don't do significantly worse at least!

 

[C0YS]

This is the point that Mourinho was kind of countering though, if you look at the past records of strikers, bar Ronaldo (who didn't even play as a striker) they all hit a healthy number of goals, I actually think it's just pure laziness to call his style counter attacking, he sets up to cede possession in the big matches yes but generally his teams play on the front foot against the smaller teams or teams that he knows they can dominate.

Kane will play further up the pitch in the majority of matches and once we are up to speed we will dominate a bit more, I just think people are seeing this version of current Spurs and think this will be our final form.

I wouldn't say he plays on the front foot, but much more balanced yes. I think with Jose teams the first goal matters a lot. If you get the first goal than the opposition opens up, and against smaller teams you can pick them out. But also he does tend to try and play through the striker much more, particularly in smaller games. So he should be involved. The issue with games like Man utd, is he is stuck competing with 50-50 balls, and him being unfit doesn't help. Nor does coming up against Harry Maguire, who is probably the best defender in the air in the league.

 

[DiVaio]

Think his numbers on Drogba isn't quite right though, he only scored 100 for Chelsea in total, 156 appearances maybe!

Yeah he looked on matches played not goals scored for Drogba. The rest is good.

 

[stormfly]

It might be time to look at him playing the number 10 role for the next few games so he gets on the ball more and can use his underrated range of passing. Something like:
Lucas Kane Berj
Son

Then throw him up front for the last 30 and put Dele on.

 

[C0YS]

Yeah I agree. Personally I wouldn't sell Kane for anything because of what he represents. All clubs need a 1 club player every so often to keep the dream alive for young fans and the fact we have one who is one of the worlds most respected number 9s and national team captain is amazing.

Unfortunately fans struggle to manage expectations and won't allow players any slight dip in form these days. I think alot of it is due to the stat culture. As a kid I don't remember ever hearing commentators talk how many games Sheringham had gone without a goal or his goals per minute ratios, we just loved him and cheered every goal. Maybe it's because I was young and these conversations were happening but this constant death by stats is annoying.

I think you're right, with the stat obsession. I mean I use stats a lot, but they are misleading, football can't be reduced to that (and if it was Kane would still be having a good season) and you see this with the Messi Ronaldo domination of footballing awards. When during this time players such as Sneijder, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Ribery, Robben, Kante and what not should all have been competing for those awards in some of those seasons. But through lack of playing in a fashionable league, or not matching Ronaldo and Messi's stats they've been forgotten.

 

[JayB]

This is the point that Mourinho was kind of countering though, if you look at the past records of strikers, bar Ronaldo (who didn't even play as a striker) they all hit a healthy number of goals, I actually think it's just pure laziness to call his style counter attacking, he sets up to cede possession in the big matches yes but generally his teams play on the front foot against the smaller teams or teams that he knows they can dominate.

Kane will play further up the pitch in the majority of matches and once we are up to speed we will dominate a bit more, I just think people are seeing this version of current Spurs and think this will be our final form.

But saying "My strikers have scored in the past!" doesn't really refute the idea that Kane specifically is not suited to the style we played against United. Sure, players like Drogba, Ibra, Eto'o, and Ronaldo have succeeded under Jose, but Kane doesn't have the same attributes as those players.

It's hardly "pure laziness" to call Jose's style counterattacking. It's been his brand for virtually his entire career. Sure, against small clubs we'll have more of the ball, but is it really reassuring to think "Oh, well, Kane will only be hamstrung by tactics which are poorly suited to him when we play against the best opposition -- when we play midtable guff he'll be just fine"? It's against the best that we need him most!

 

[C0YS]

But saying "My strikers have scored in the past!" doesn't really refute the idea that Kane specifically is not suited to the style we played against United. Sure, players like Drogba, Ibra, Eto'o, and Ronaldo have succeeded under Jose, but Kane doesn't have the same attributes as those players.

It's hardly "pure laziness" to call Jose's style counterattacking. It's been his brand for virtually his entire career. Sure, against small clubs we'll have more of the ball, but is it really reassuring to think "Oh, well, Kane will only be hamstrung by tactics which are poorly suited to him when we play against the best opposition -- when we play midtable guff he'll be just fine"? It's against the best that we need him most!

Considering his biggest success post Porto is Inter, and they played Milito up front (a player very similar in style to Kane), I think Kane fits in perfectly fine. I see no reason why he can't fit in. He probably needs to work on the timing of his headers but he can definitely do that role. Also, his record under Mourinho is good, if he maintains that he would be hitting 30+ in all competitions.

 

[Shadydan]

But saying "My strikers have scored in the past!" doesn't really refute the idea that Kane specifically is not suited to the style we played against United. Sure, players like Drogba, Ibra, Eto'o, and Ronaldo have succeeded under Jose, but Kane doesn't have the same attributes as those players.

It's hardly "pure laziness" to call Jose's style counterattacking. It's been his brand for virtually his entire career. Sure, against small clubs we'll have more of the ball, but is it really reassuring to think "Oh, well, Kane will only be hamstrung by tactics which are poorly suited to him when we play against the best opposition -- when we play midtable guff he'll be just fine"? It's against the best that we need him most!

He has similar attributes to Diego Milito and Diego Costa, both hit around 20 on average, Kane is better than both of them.

No we don't to rely on just one player against the big teams, we need to get the most out of the team, if that means sacrificing one player for the greater good then so be it. When you rely on one player that's when your game falls apart.

 

[JayB]

He has similar attributes to Diego Milito and Diego Costa, both hit around 20 on average, Kane is better than both of them.

No we don't to rely on just one player against the big teams, we need to get the most out of the team, if that means sacrificing one player for the greater good then so be it. When you rely on one player that's when your game falls apart.

I'm not saying that Kane won't be productive under Mourinho full stop, as I do expect that he'll feast as he always does in matches where we have lots of the ball around the box. What I'm saying is that it's fair to question whether the tactics we employed against United will ever get the best out of him. And no matter how you slice it, it's a problem when your best player doesn't fit what the manager wants to do against top clubs.

It's true that you can't just throw away your gameplan for the sake of one player, but when that player has been the source of most of the club's successes over the past five years it's a legitimate concern.

 

[Shadydan]

I'm not saying that Kane won't be productive under Mourinho full stop, as I do expect that he'll feast as he always does in matches where we have lots of the ball around the box. What I'm saying is that it's fair to question whether the tactics we employed against United will ever get the best out of him. And no matter how you slice it, it's a problem when your best player doesn't fit what the manager wants to do against top clubs.

It's true that you can't just throw away your gameplan for the sake of one player, but when that player has been the source of most of the club's successes over the past five years it's a legitimate concern.

Well this comes down to whether you trust the manager to get the best out of the players and the team and deliver us success or you don't trust him. I honestly couldn't care less whether Kane scores 5 goals less on average per season if it means setting up up to win legit trophies than why should anyone care?

 

[C0YS]

I'm not saying that Kane won't be productive under Mourinho full stop, as I do expect that he'll feast as he always does in matches where we have lots of the ball around the box. What I'm saying is that it's fair to question whether the tactics we employed against United will ever get the best out of him. And no matter how you slice it, it's a problem when your best player doesn't fit what the manager wants to do against top clubs.

It's true that you can't just throw away your gameplan for the sake of one player, but when that player has been the source of most of the club's successes over the past five years it's a legitimate concern.

I think he did fit with the game plan against Man Utd though. Just because we weren't able to play him in at the counter, or just because he didnt win most of his 50-50s didnt change that. We needed a number 9 to occupy the centre backs for sure. I think just because it wasn't a good game for him personally doesn't mean he didnt have a tactical role to play.

 

[JayB]

Well this comes down to whether you trust the manager to get the best out of the players and the team and deliver us success or you don't trust him. I honestly couldn't care less whether Kane scores 5 goals less on average per season if it means setting up up to win legit trophies than why should anyone care?

I agree completely with that sentiment, obviously the needs of the team have to come first. And I'm also not suggesting that I'm sure Mourinho can't make it work with Kane, merely that the United match raised some legitimate questions. Given that Kane was injured six weeks after Jose took over we don't have a very big sample size to work with to make predictions.

Look, I can see a role for Kane in this system. There's no doubt that he can hold the ball up and feed it into the channels for pacey runners like Son, Bergwijn and Lucas to hit teams on the break. But what makes him special is not his all-round play, it's the fact that he's a world-class finisher, and we've got other players like Ndombele and Lo Celso who are adept at receiving the ball under pressure and threading neat passes into the channels.

To the extent that our most clinical player is being used primarily in the buildup to chance creation rather than being positioned such that he can get on the end of those chances, I think it's fair to question whether the setup is optimal. Obviously I won't care if Kane's production suffers if it means we win things, but winning things with a less-than-ideal Kane is going to be difficult for us.

 

[ClintEastwould]

Think his numbers on Drogba isn't quite right though, he only scored 100 for Chelsea in total, 156 appearances maybe!

No way in hell drogba scores 46 goals a season. I doubt he ever got past 30 more than once.

 

[Shadydan]

I agree completely with that sentiment, obviously the needs of the team have to come first. And I'm also not suggesting that I'm sure Mourinho can't make it work with Kane, merely that the United match raised some legitimate questions. Given that Kane was injured six weeks after Jose took over we don't have a very big sample size to work with to make predictions.

Look, I can see a role for Kane in this system. There's no doubt that he can hold the ball up and feed it into the channels for pacey runners like Son, Bergwijn and Lucas to hit teams on the break. But what makes him special is not his all-round play, it's the fact that he's a world-class finisher, and we've got other players like Ndombele and Lo Celso who are adept at receiving the ball under pressure and threading neat passes into the channels.

To the extent that our most clinical player is being used primarily in the buildup to chance creation rather than being positioned such that he can get on the end of those chances, I think it's fair to question whether the setup is optimal. Obviously I won't care if Kane's production suffers if it means we win things, but winning things with a less-than-ideal Kane is going to be difficult for us.

As @C0YS mentioned he has a 11 game sample size, 7 goals, average of 24 in a 38 match season, I don't think there anything to worry about personally, also it seems like people are acting as if he's coming off his 2016/18 seasons, his last full season he hit 17 and he has 11 this season.

What's more Poch pretty much had Kane playing a lot deeper than he played in those seasons and had the likes of Lucas and Son to do his running for him, I heard the exact same arguments in the last two years when people were saying that Kane is playing too deep, the truth is maybe managers are starting to utilisie him outside the box more because that's where he is at his most dangerous.

 

[JayB]

As @C0YS mentioned he has a 11 game sample size, 7 goals, average of 24 in a 38 match season, I don't think there anything to worry about personally, also it seems like people are acting as if he's coming off his 2016/18 seasons, his last full season he hit 17 and he has 11 this season.

What's more Poch pretty much had Kane playing a lot deeper than he played in those seasons and had the likes of Lucas and Son to do his running for him, I heard the exact same arguments in the last two years when people were saying that Kane is playing too deep, the truth is maybe managers are starting to utilisie him outside the box more because that's where he is at his most dangerous.

My take on why Kane has had to drop deeper in recent seasons is because the quality of the team behind him has diminished pretty drastically. When we were flying under Poch we had a dominant midfield of peak Dembele partnered with a competent DM and an in-form Eriksen -- not to mention pacey fullbacks who stretched opposing back lines and created space for the attackers to operate in.

Over the past two seasons we've had no Dembele (nor any adequate replacement as yet), no recognized DM whatsoever, and our primary midfield playmaker has either been disillusioned with the club (in the case of Eriksen), or not yet settled and consistently struggling with injury (in the case of Lo Celso). The fullbacks have also declined precipitously.

All this means that we don't have as much control of games as we once did, that we're creating fewer chances, and that our play is more congested. Kane has been forced to drop deep not because that is how he's best utilized, but because that's been the only way for him to get involved. I really don't see it as optimal by any means.