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Fragile Fanbase

soflapaul

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
8,665
14,767
I too am of a similar age to you. I agree with the general social issues you've identified. I cannot include the Spurs fanbase in that though. Which other club has had the horrific run we've had, yet continues to have a massive fanbase spending thousands upon thousands of pounds (and rising!) per season to follow their team.

Logic, in this instance, says have patience in Ange and his team, but not in the Club's ownership. It would be illogical and downright stupid to "trust" any Levy process at this stage. In this instance, we have to "wait" for Levy to correct previous years' mistakes and get rid of the deadwood, before we can spend any money replacing our greatest ever goalscorer. That's just piss poor management of a club by Levy and it's not in line with other societal dysfunctions to point that out.
What horrible run have we had though? Doesn't that run begin with where you start your timeline? How many fanbases would eagerly trade places with the results we have gotten in the last 20 years? To be fair to your point, many of these are self induced but then again, aren't the results that most teams have suffered thru the same? again to be fair, i think DL in his effort to create success has done every shortcut he can possibly think of while operating the business the way he thinks is sustainable but none of them have born fruit that meets our rising expectations. (and that's failed execution)

Fans seem to me have a couple of dimensions that really are best described by intersecting bell curves
  • Win at all costs vs I just want to be entertained
  • Give it time vs. Why hasn't it already happened. Do something about it. F*** off!!!!!!
It's just that the quadrant with win at all costs and why hasn't happened yet seems to be growing or at least they are more vocal.

Much of the response seems not to be the money aspect. I suspect the vast majority that post here dont' spend thousand sof pounds. (although we do invest tons of time). If it was only that, you'd stop spending it. I'd suggest it is ego/identity driven. Spurs are massively important to all of us. Where social media has impacted the game and society is that so much of "life" involves online communications. Us old codgers had the good fortune to grow up with less social pressure. Spurs drop out of a Cup? For the youth (or the yute as my Jamaican teammates use to say) 20 mates razz you with no comeback. for us old guys, a couple of friends might razz us and then ask what age Denny's offers its senior citizen discount (55 for those that didn't know) or does prune juice really work.

The greater one's online presence creates personal meaning, the more dependent you are on things out of your control. That means that other people and events outside your control have greater ability to impact that larger part of life. It's incredibly disempowering and not healthy. Sorry for the novel but it is something that is quite troubling. I agree with much of what you and AfriCoy write. It's just that so much of our fanbase has shown no patience with Ange as evidenced by this thread and i dont' see a solution to it since it's a reflection of society at large. it's also a difficult tightrope to walk to be patient with Ange while impatient with Levy.

Cheers. May Ange's performance be so good for so long that it papers over the cracks in society at large.
 

fecka

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2013
2,301
6,339
I don't think we have a particularly fragile fanbase. Just an impatient one after a decade and a half of no titles while other teams around us have won a few.
Think a lot of it comes from the new social media landscape and the likes of Talksport absolutely love provoking the fanbase as they know it's a touchy subject for us.

Doubt that would change unless we won the league or CL though. Perhaps the FA cup. A carabao wouldn't mean much more than the community shield.
 

Stamford

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2015
4,070
19,678
I see we've reached the part of the story arc where the fans are somehow culpable.

We are in the driest spell in our history and the leadership has no real plan or conviction. Yet games sell out in record time and the ground remains full and it's impossible to get a ticket to an away game. There are so so many problems at this club but the fan's attitude isn't one of them
 
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PLTuck

Eternal Optimist
Aug 22, 2006
15,719
32,647
Absolutely agree with the many excellent posts on here that it is a symptom of wider society and the social media, instant gratification generation. I don't think we are unique when it comes to PL fans in particular. At lower levels there is much less of this mindset, but then at lower levels you don't have £100 tickets on top of a paid scheme to even be in with a chance of getting those tickets.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I think fragile has to be the best way to put it, we want success but the fanbase isn't willing to suffer any growing pains.

People are angry about yesterday because they conflate it with all that has gone before and feel that they've waited long enough for glory. Fans want to pretend their anger is about the selection of players, can anybody whose angry about yesterday honestly say, if we had lost with the full 11, that they would have reacted differently and would have been praising Ange, saying oh well he tried his best, put his best foot forward. Be honest and admit you'd have found a new direction to be angry at.

People have short memories, look at Sanchez in pre-season, first everyone wanted him go, couple of games and people start to consider if he's worth keeping, yesterday happens and normal service resumed. We keep going round in circles because people do not want to tolerate the discomfort of the steps that it will take to actually be successful.

I've been banging the drum about seeing this as a developmental season, where we basically focus on laying foundations to move forward, I was doing the same thing before Poch got sacked, people argued we needed to win now, how did those 4 years go. I really thought that after how clearly, the desire for instant gratification caused more pain and frustration than accepting the rebuild ever would have, that people would have learnt their lesson and understood this year will be difficult. First sign of trouble and here we are, I really thought we'd have realised that we need to be patient, I'm struggling to be polite about it if I'm honest.

The club has made clear by selling Kane, that it will prioritise the financial value of players and the cycling of those values to arrive at success over trying to yield footballing results over the short term. I personally wish that we were more willing to take a risk because I fear there is a ceiling to this method. However, it can be successful when done correctly, you need good scouting, you need to know when to sell, you need the consistent increase of capability in the team and you need fringe players to maintain quality for sell-on value. The decisions you make in this system need to be bang on to such a high level of proficiency to yield success but if you break that ceiling, it can be self sustaining but we haven't got it right when we've been within touching distance so far, 4 years the wrong direction, we're now trying again. I'm honestly bored of the level of anger because people won't see that, let alone accept it. This appears to be the reality of the situation whether we as fans want it to be or not.

That's why it's particularly frustrating to see the reaction towards the manager, because it's borne out of not seeing the situation as it is. You think he's in a position to risk Romero, Bissouma and Maddison last night with their injury history? You think he's in a position to not play Sanchez, Hojbjerg, Lo Celso to make them look of value to us? You think he's in a position to alienate half his team when the opportunity comes to rotate, he's in a position to not have to risk results in order to develop Skipp? See the situation for what it is and stop getting angry because you want things to be different from the reality of the situation and for the love of fuck sake, let's not even hint at starting to see it be in the direction of the only ray of hope that's appeared in the last 5 years.
 
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jpascavitz

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
1,811
7,111
I think fragile has to be the best way to put it, we want success but the fanbase isn't willing to suffer any growing pains.

People are angry about yesterday because they conflate it with all that has gone before and feel that they've waited long enough for glory. Fans want to pretend their anger is about the selection of players, can anybody whose angry about yesterday honestly say, if we had lost with the full 11, that they would have reacted differently and would have been praising Ange, saying oh well he tried his best, put his best foot forward. Be honest and admit you'd have found a new direction to be angry at.

People have short memories, look at Sanchez in pre-season, first everyone wanted him go, couple of games and people start to consider if he's worth keeping, yesterday happens and normal service resumed. We keep going round in circles because people do not want to tolerate the discomfort of the steps that it will take to actually be successful.

I've been banging the drum about seeing this as a developmental season, where we basically focus on laying foundations to move forward, I was doing the same thing before Poch got sacked, people argued we needed to win now, how did those 4 years go. I really thought that after how clearly, the desire for instant gratification caused more pain and frustration than accepting the rebuild ever would have, that people would have learnt their lesson and understood this year will be difficult. First sign of trouble and here we are, I really thought we'd have realised that we need to be patient, I'm struggling to be polite about it if I'm honest.

The club has made clear by selling Kane, that it will prioritise the financial value of players and the cycling of those values to arrive at success over trying to yield footballing results over the short term. I personally wish that we were more willing to take a risk because I fear there is a ceiling to this method. However, it can be successful when done correctly, you need good scouting, you need to know when to sell, you need the consistent increase of capability in the team and you need fringe players to maintain quality for sell-on value. The decisions you make in this system need to be bang on to such a high level of proficiency to yield success but if you break that ceiling, it can be self sustaining but we haven't got it right when we've been within touching distance so far, 4 years the wrong direction, we're now trying again. I'm honestly bored of the level of anger because people won't see that, let alone accept it. This appears to be the reality of the situation whether we as fans want it to be or not.

That's why it's particularly frustrating to see the reaction towards the manager, because it's borne out of not seeing the situation as it is. You think he's in a position to risk Romero, Bissouma and Maddison last night with their injury history? You think he's in a position to not play Sanchez, Hojbjerg, Lo Celso to make them look of value to us? You think he's in a position to alienate half his team when the opportunity comes to rotate, he's in a position to not have to risk results in order to develop Skipp? See the situation for what it is and stop getting angry because you want things to be different from the reality of the situation and for the love of fuck sake, let's not even hint at starting to see it be in the direction of the only ray of hope that's appeared in the last 5 years.

Amazing post - and I wish every supporter could take the time to read and digest this. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinions, but I really fail to see how some think we can flip a switch and go from midtable finishing position to cup or league challengers in one Summer, added in that we sold maybe the best player the club has ever seen.

I really do fear for Ange, and I don't even know if the early success in the league will help or hurt him tbh. Due to the early success, and I get it, I want to celebrate the highs too, but it seems many were already getting carried away. It just makes me fear any rough patches this season. Us, as a fanbase, need to get behind the squad so young talent can gain confidence and push on... not retract into their shells, be scared to make mistakes, etc. We'll only be looking for another new manager and crop of players in a years time if that is the case...
 

Monkey boy

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2011
6,351
16,911
Have to say that my first thought when i heard the "We've got our Tottenham Back" song on the weekend was that it was inevitable that we would do something spursy very soon to give all the social media "banter" kings something to beat us with.

How can you go from we've got our Tottenham back to Levy out chants in the space of 20 mins? it makes us look so fickle and stupid.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
Experience subconsciously changes the way we think. It's a form of programming. It defines habits and behaviours

I think the term is neurons that fire together wire together.
True although neuron pathways can re-build : "Modern research has demonstrated that the brain continues to create new neural pathways and alter existing ones in order to adapt to new experiences, learn new information, and create new memories"

Therefore just because in recent times things have been frustrating we can also learn to enjoy a new approach under Ange just like we did under Poch after some frustrating years.

I call it all riding the 'The waves of life'. Constant ups and downs some bigger and longer than others.

We have good positive waves at the moment, lets focus mostly on those.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
I think fragile has to be the best way to put it, we want success but the fanbase isn't willing to suffer any growing pains.

People are angry about yesterday because they conflate it with all that has gone before and feel that they've waited long enough for glory. Fans want to pretend their anger is about the selection of players, can anybody whose angry about yesterday honestly say, if we had lost with the full 11, that they would have reacted differently and would have been praising Ange, saying oh well he tried his best, put his best foot forward. Be honest and admit you'd have found a new direction to be angry at.

People have short memories, look at Sanchez in pre-season, first everyone wanted him go, couple of games and people start to consider if he's worth keeping, yesterday happens and normal service resumed. We keep going round in circles because people do not want to tolerate the discomfort of the steps that it will take to actually be successful.

I've been banging the drum about seeing this as a developmental season, where we basically focus on laying foundations to move forward, I was doing the same thing before Poch got sacked, people argued we needed to win now, how did those 4 years go. I really thought that after how clearly, the desire for instant gratification caused more pain and frustration than accepting the rebuild ever would have, that people would have learnt their lesson and understood this year will be difficult. First sign of trouble and here we are, I really thought we'd have realised that we need to be patient, I'm struggling to be polite about it if I'm honest.

The club has made clear by selling Kane, that it will prioritise the financial value of players and the cycling of those values to arrive at success over trying to yield footballing results over the short term. I personally wish that we were more willing to take a risk because I fear there is a ceiling to this method. However, it can be successful when done correctly, you need good scouting, you need to know when to sell, you need the consistent increase of capability in the team and you need fringe players to maintain quality for sell-on value. The decisions you make in this system need to be bang on to such a high level of proficiency to yield success but if you break that ceiling, it can be self sustaining but we haven't got it right when we've been within touching distance so far, 4 years the wrong direction, we're now trying again. I'm honestly bored of the level of anger because people won't see that, let alone accept it. This appears to be the reality of the situation whether we as fans want it to be or not.

That's why it's particularly frustrating to see the reaction towards the manager, because it's borne out of not seeing the situation as it is. You think he's in a position to risk Romero, Bissouma and Maddison last night with their injury history? You think he's in a position to not play Sanchez, Hojbjerg, Lo Celso to make them look of value to us? You think he's in a position to alienate half his team when the opportunity comes to rotate, he's in a position to not have to risk results in order to develop Skipp? See the situation for what it is and stop getting angry because you want things to be different from the reality of the situation and for the love of fuck sake, let's not even hint at starting to see it be in the direction of the only ray of hope that's appeared in the last 5 years.
Nice, you can see the picture, sometimes others can't and that is also fine, we can't change how everyone thinks but if anyway wants to try and feel better they can choose themselves to try and focus a bit more towards the positive things but of course realism and balance is also important.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Nice, you can see the picture, sometimes others can't and that is also fine, we can't change how everyone thinks but if anyway wants to try and feel better they can choose themselves to try and focus a bit more towards the positive things but of course realism and balance is also important.
I think it's fine up to the point where they make their anger others problem, that's why I think I've had enough. If people want to feel better then I'd be keen to get better at avoiding affecting that but It's when I see this pattern of, avoidance then anger, that's why I'm trying to suggest, acceptance leads to a greater feeling of positivity.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
I think it's fine up to the point where they make their anger others problem, that's why I think I've had enough. If people want to feel better then I'd be keen to get better at avoiding affecting that but It's when I see this pattern of, avoidance then anger, that's why I'm trying to suggest, acceptance leads to a greater feeling of positivity.
To be fair it could start a chain reaction of good feeling if you updated your picture to not be Conte ;)
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Amazing post - and I wish every supporter could take the time to read and digest this. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinions, but I really fail to see how some think we can flip a switch and go from midtable finishing position to cup or league challengers in one Summer, added in that we sold maybe the best player the club has ever seen.

I really do fear for Ange, and I don't even know if the early success in the league will help or hurt him tbh. Due to the early success, and I get it, I want to celebrate the highs too, but it seems many were already getting carried away. It just makes me fear any rough patches this season. Us, as a fanbase, need to get behind the squad so young talent can gain confidence and push on... not retract into their shells, be scared to make mistakes, etc. We'll only be looking for another new manager and crop of players in a years time if that is the case...

Appreciate the kind words, I didn't fear it until yesterday. I think we underestimate how much power the voice of the fanbase has. If we take a step back from Spurs for a moment and look how the loud voices of discontent affect the decision of big companies, look at how movie studios listen to those voices and their sales have been impacted, look at how businesses use it to shape their PR. We should appreciate that the loud voices do impact decisions and so I agree with you, I worry about if we hit a difficult patch. My hope is the football is good enough to get us through a difficult season, we'll find out if we've been truthful about that won't we.
 

Wiener

SC Supporter
Jun 24, 2005
1,194
320
How many fanbases would eagerly trade places with the results we have gotten in the last 20 years?

Pretty much every English club except for:

Man City (since 2008)
Chelsea (thanks to huge amounts of blood money)

Arsenal
Liverpool
Manchester United
- These three have been better than us for far longer than two decades.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,980
10,420
Don't think you can blame the fans as the club has been a laughing stock for years due to the top management which is a circus
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,714
5,391
Winner post, especially the highlighted bit.

Fans aren't "bi-polar", they're fed up with the regime. They'll support the team through thick and thin and any shaft of light is met with overwhelming positivity (lest you forget "Antonio" ringing round the ground a year ago). You could quite easily say the incredible levels of support Ange and the team have received in only three games is equally "bi-polar" and reactionary.

But failure is ingrained into the club, and these days everyone knows why, and who is responsible.

Fans being angry and depressed because we've gone out of the only realistic chance of silverware, in August, in the first round we've been in, as the first PL team to get knocked out, for the first time in 18 years that we've been knocked out this early, having won our last 7 away games at Craven Cottage - is not fans being "fragile"!

It was an awful performance which was symptomatic of 15 years of Spurs failure and was a stark reminder that despite our positive new manager, the club is still in absolutely no way set up to even try to win anything, and that the culture of failure still runs bone-deep through every aspect of the institution.

People are right to be pissed off and they have every right to express it.
Smashing post. And I'd emphasize "try to win anything" here. Most fans want us to be as competitive as we can be within the context of state-owned clubs nowadays. I despair (still) of all the knobs that wanted Poch out, but for the most part, that was a golden time of supporting Spurs because we played good football and were competitive. Winning a trophy would've been nice, but not winning one didn't drive me to think poorly of the team/club and how we were doing. I suspect most fans are on that page.

The response to last night is variable, but the criticism is entirely understandable and welcome, to be honest. If we were playing a first round CL game last night, no way would Ange pick so many B-listers. That is almost a certainty. So in that case, the manager has communicated that he didn't value a league cup run by making so many unforced changes. That tells me the manager feels we can turn on and off our competitiveness as we wish. And/or that the league cup is beneath us, despite it being one of three things we can compete for this season. Or that he thinks so poorly of Fulham that they didn't warrant a first-team opponent for this particular game.

You can dress it up all you like, but it was his decision to take and I disagree with him wholeheartedly. We can't keep inoculating ourselves for some future grand prize by thinking we can hold off on the prizes available now. If/when we're in the CL, he can do this shit. I probably still won't like it. But there was no need for it now.
 

chas vs dave

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2008
5,227
21,422
Don't think you can blame the fans as the club has been a laughing stock for years due to the top management which is a circus
Laughing stock to who?

Does it matter what any other non spurs fan thinks?

Spurs are the only club to go from mid to bottom table mediocrity to regularly qualifying for Europe off their own back.

All the others needed sugar daddies, including Brighton.
 

coy-spurs1882

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
3,980
10,420
Laughing stock to who?

Does it matter what any other non spurs fan thinks?

Spurs are the only club to go from mid to bottom table mediocrity to regularly qualifying for Europe off their own back.

All the others needed sugar daddies, including Brighton.
all people involved in football. fans, players, clubs etc
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,714
5,391
Laughing stock to who?

Does it matter what any other non spurs fan thinks?

Spurs are the only club to go from mid to bottom table mediocrity to regularly qualifying for Europe off their own back.

All the others needed sugar daddies, including Brighton.
How's Joe Lewis, or Enic, not a sugar daddy? Is Fenway sports group a sugar daddy?
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
Some of the fragility comes from a sense of history repeating itself so a lot of hope and enthusiasm fades away especially at the end of transfer windows when we know we haven't got what we need to.

If we sign no-one else (my expectation) between now and Saturday, I'll still go to the games and enjoy the new songs and nicer newer football but it'll just be a shame to know that our season will yet again be limited in terms of what we can achieve.
 

eViL

Oliver Skipp's Dad
May 15, 2004
5,839
7,960
Don't think you can blame the fans as the club has been a laughing stock for years due to the top management which is a circus

It's not really a laughing stock though either is it?

We're an established top 6 club, generally, in the best domestic league in the world. The best stadium, best training facilities.

What's to laugh at?

Yeah it'd be nice to win the League every year but fucking hell; have a look around.

Some fans just can't handle standard football banter because they are weaklings. It's banter; the trophy cabinet is empty.. so fucking what? Did anyone die?
 
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