Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[spursfan77]

Bit of both, with the potential of being game changing or infuriating.

I know that tells you nothing really but I've probably said too much already yesterday.

In fairness our mate Prof on COYS has been similarly coy about things with a couple of posts similar to yours. Also says that getting any info out of the club right now has been harder than ever. Nothing is leaking. Thanks though. Always good to know something is happening.

 

[Spursfan1414]

Conte isn't a coach on the Klopp/Pep/Tuchel level. He's not capable of changing his system or adapting to the specific squad he's got. If Klopp didn't have TAA/Robertson, he'd have found a way to get more creativity into the midfield of his team. Pep switches between back 3 and 4s on a game by game basis.

When Conte has problems, his only solution is to buy better players at huge cost. Does anyone think that Klopp would've spend half a season pretending that Emerson and Sess are the reincarnations of Roberto Carlos? Of course not, he'd have changed his system to favour the strengths of the squad he actually has, not the one he wishes he had.

People can moan about Levy as much as they like, and a lot of the time they have a point, but even if he opens the cheque book we're still not going to be a Man City who can go out and buy the only available player who fits what they need at ridiculous cost. That's why we need a coach who's capable of adapting and that's never been or going to be Conte.

He did 2 seasons at Chelsea, 2 at Inter, 3 at Juventus. He's not a project manager and even if he were, the project looks completely appalling. We can moan about the squad all we like, none of that explains the drop off from last season to this one.

Honestly, I'm not even sure Conte cares. I think he's here for the paycheck and to protect his reputation. He's not remotely himself on the touchline, he's not even trying to solve the obvious issues with our tactics. Liew in the Guardian put it perfectly:

But when a coach’s commitment to the club feels so conditional, why should anybody else sweat and bleed for it? Conte is not wedded to this project as Pep Guardiola is to Manchester City or Jürgen Klopp to Liverpool. He does not empathise with Tottenham as Mikel Arteta does with Arsenal or Gareth Ainsworth with Wycombe. This is a job, and a strictly limited-term job at that, a job to keep him going until something better comes along. His priority, career-wise, is simply not to mess up. Grasp that, and everything you see on the pitch makes a little more sense.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

And yet some of us were saying that the defence was a far bigger problem, and we didn't push the boat out on those players Conte wanted, only those that fit the age/sell on criteria Levy loves so much. I'm not saying he wasn't backed at all, but I kept saying over and over Spence was a waste of time and money because Conte didn't really want him. I said that Bissouma was a good player but not a significant upgrade on what we already had. You can't argue that he wanted Richarlisson and Peresic and he got them, but you can argue that Spence and Bissouma were not Conte's choices but he accepted them because he thought there was something to work with based on his limited knowledge of the players. It was backing him but it was half arsed and with the finacials first and foremost in mind.

I think half arsed is the perfect term for that scenario. Bastoni and Zaniolo were the obvious ones we didn't get. Were any others actually achievable with more of a push and have there been others that haven't been made public that Conte wanted but we didn't pursue strongly or at all?

 

[Gb160]

So then we are left with the same question....

What was the fucking point in the last 3 years???

In 2019 Forbes valued us at $1.6B, in 2022 they valued us at $2.4B
Even though those numbers are lower than what we're seeing us valued at today, I'd imagine the % increase is pretty accurate.
So the point of the last 3 years was exclusively to fatten up Enic's cash cow by about $800m.

 

[Trix]

Get what you're saying Trix, but I bet there's a whole load of managers that would be over the moon with a half arsed signing like Bissouma and would have had him straight in the team.

Indeed but again if that's how you want to play it get one of those managers. We ALL knew prior to him coming in that is not how Conte works, it's also not how Jose works so why hire them in the first place if this is how you are going to operate?

 

[HildoSpur]

Indeed but again if that's how you want to play it get one of those managers. We ALL knew prior to him coming in that is not how Conte works, it's also not how Jose works so why hire them in the first place if this is how you are going to operate?

You do this if you think you know a lot about football but actually are a bit clueless.

 

[Styopa]

Klopp’s Liverpool were never playing as consistently poorly as we are now. He is also clearly a long term project manager, and stays minimum of 7 years at each club he’s at. Conte is a win-now manager who isn’t winning now.

Yeah as I remember it - and I double checked online - Liverpool basically built season upon season under Klopp right to their peak. In their first season they got to two finals but were inconsistent in the league. In their second season they finished fourth. In the third season they were in a Champions League final. Klopp was also implementing what most people consider to be an entertaining brand of football. There was a sense of momentum which is why when they signed VDV and Alison it felt like they had found the missing pieces.

The situation here feels different. It feels like Conte made a great start last year but we have gone backwards since. It doesn’t feel like we are in the process of developing a distinct style of football and we are definitely not entertaining to watch. And as you say Conte has no proper record of taking on a project, unlike Klopp.

 

[Nerine]

Basically Levy needs to decide what kind of club we want to be.

He's never known.

We violently lurch from one identity to another which leaves us with heaps of collateral damage and flotsam and jetsam that ultimately takes seasons to fix.

The planning has been non-existent.

It's just a continual half-arsed roll of the dice.

You could argue that we've been directionally correct over Enic/Levy's tenure, especially with infrastructure, facilities and club valuation, but I am past giving a fuck about the balance sheet and how much acreage we can brag about.

Now I come to think of it, and upon reflection, the infrastructure has ALWAYS been at the expense of the team and the on field performances. No manager I can remember has ever been backed properly. It's always been with half an eye on the balance sheet and the profitability of the club. Opportunistic buys, no buys, square pegs in round holes, cut price deals and a lack of due diligence on some of them to boot. We lucked out with Kane and he has singlehandedly papered over the cracks for years. Where would we be without his output? Mid table at best.

Poch's "success" was inconvenient for Levy. It seems to me the team being on the brink of winning the CL was almost frightening to the bald one because it meant a deviation from the long term plan of building an investment and a bulging property portfolio. Hence not listening to Pochettino when the talk of the "painful rebuild" came about.

As far as I can see, we will ALWAYS be hamstrung with these owners, or at least with Levy aiming the ship.

My guess is people will fucking kick off when they see the books when they eventually get released. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they are being delayed on purpose.

If fans know we have money to spend, and we got through another TW with the ability to back a manager, but not the appetite, people will rage. And rightly so.

Fuck knows.

 

[DiVaio]

How was Klopp doing 15/16 months into his time at Liverpool? I remember listening to 5 Live coming back from games with one Liverpool fan after another calling for Klopp to be fired.

What about Arteta? Even Pep had an underwhelming first season at Abu Dhabi in sp[ite of all the investment that came before him.

You can argue that we should be doing better, but cannot dismiss the fact that there are players who have been here far too long, our recruitment with only two recent exceptions has been shambolic, when we do spend big money we spend it very badly (Ndombele), we play a wing back system with only one decent wing back (Perisic) out of 5, and the common denominator ifor 20 years is ENIC.

Conte isn't perfect and isn't immune to mistakes, however he is IMO not the issue here. As mentioned in another thread, whoever we appoint doesn't really matter - 18 months from now we will be having the same conversation

We have owners who have no real ambition and have been making the same mistakes for 20 years - we will only ever fluctuate between 4th and 7/8th, with long periods of frustrating football interspersed with periods of optimism. This is how it will be and it won't change whether Conte is our manger or not

In Guardiola's 1st they were 12 points better than their previous with much better numbers. The shortest time he was at one club was 3 years and it's longer than the longest time Conte has been in one club.
The same for Klopp, they improved and also their pressing numbers massively improved immediately since first game. He was seven years both at Mainz and Dortmund.

Since Klopp came to Liverpool, Conte - left Italy, joined Chelsea, left Chelsea, had 1 year break, joined Inter, left Inter, had 5 months break, joined Spurs and will probably leave Spurs before Klopp leaves Liverpool. That's a key difference.

 

[kent brockman]

I dunno if we should primarily blame Conte, the players, Levy, or just all of them.

It is safe to say though that we probably should not expect improved performances as long as Conte’s future is up in the air. So we need to either back him or sack him. The former obviously only to the extent that also AC commits to stay longer term.

 

[TOLBINY]

Indeed but again if that's how you want to play it get one of those managers. We ALL knew prior to him coming in that is not how Conte works, it's also not how Jose works so why hire them in the first place if this is how you are going to operate?

This could be reversed by saying why did Conte come if he did not get certain assurances - he had a pretty strong hand at the time? So (and this is not a question to Trix so no ban required) has Levy broken any assurances or did Conte not get /seek them in the first place?
Edit - assurances relating to transfer budget

 

[mil1lion]

Bentancur allows us to do that because of the ground he recovers and the brilliance in his anticipation. It was the same with Conte having Kante at Chelsea.

Those 3 are flying, at top of their game. I'd rather them 3 be stopped than worrying about Zinchenko and White.

You say its not as simple as that but everyone could see it was that simple after about 10mins

But we also have been dominated when we played 352. People were crying out for us to switch to that formation and it seems the results have been forgotten. We've also been poor with Bentancur. The issue is more than just the formation. That wasn't the reason Lloris slapped into his own net or why no centre back or central midfielder is aware enough to close down a player on the edge of the box. There's a massive mental issue among the players. Too many confidence players as Conte mentioned earlier in the season.

 

[The Doc]

This could be reversed by saying why did Conte come if he did not get certain assurances - he had a pretty strong hand at the time? So (and this is not a question to Trix so no ban required) has Levy broken any assurances or did Conte not get /seek them in the first place?

I would find the second option difficult to believe. It would be the first point on the agenda for an incoming manager who has any knowledge of Spurs and the owners' MO.

 

[walworthyid]

Yeah sack Conte.. because another manager is going to get top 4 performances out Lloris, Emerson, Doherty, Sessegnon, Hojbjerg, Dier, Sanchez, Davies, Lenglet and Son on current form! I’m not even gonna hold back, you have to be totally bereft of any concept of what a top 4 squad looks like if you believe that! People need to watch a bit more football, because there are players throughout the entire fucking division all the way down to the bottom of the table that would walk into this squad. 40-50% of them are bottom half of the table level players, some of them even wouldn’t get into top championship sides in certain positions. It’s embarrassing that people believe it’s Conte’s fault these players aren’t performing, they aren’t capable of it! Another manager would come in and they would fail for them too, I really hope it doesn’t happen because we’ll be a fucking laughing stock if we sack Conte, he will go to another club and win things and he’ll rightly laugh in the faces of those that think this is his fault

There is no doubt whatsoever that our squad needs serious improvement, but I'm just at a loss to understand how anybody can defend Conte's tactics and complete lack of tactical flexibility.

I've made no secret of the fact that I detest low-block football so to be honest Conte will never be the manager I would want. However, an idiot can see that his formation just doesn't work without some form of pressing.

If the 3 forwards don't press then they either get bypassed as the opposition moves the ball forward or they are essentially auxiliary wingbacks because they have to help the wingback defend against 2 players. This then leaves Kane isolated and the 2 in the middle of midfield completely outnumbered and exposed. It's ridiculous.

Then there is our lack of a creative player because such a player can't work in the pivot.

Then there is the 3 centre backs marking 1 player!

All of this means that we have to concede the ball and the territory.

No movement. No creativity. No plan with the ball. No plan without the ball. No press. Nothing. Its just not good enough on any level.

I'll not watch another game until he's gone.

 

[jimbo]

This could be reversed by saying why did Conte come if he did not get certain assurances - he had a pretty strong hand at the time? So (and this is not a question to Trix so no ban required) has Levy broken any assurances or did Conte not get /seek them in the first place?
Edit - assurances relating to transfer budget

I think Conte himself said that the plan had changed, recently-ish - before the transfer window opened but after the World Cup I think.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

2019 - Pochettino out
2021 - Mourinho out
2022 - Nuno out
2023 - Conte out

We can keep calling for the manager to go and each of those managers had a good case to be sacked but when you look at the list of managers above you will see that the problem is bigger than them.

Pochettino - 4231, possession based, high pressing, requires young players
Mourinho - 433, defensive, counter attacking, prefers experience
Nuno - who knows what the fuck he was trying to do but we were told that he would fit our "tradition of attacking football and playing young players,"
Conte - 343, requires very specific players, counter attacking, prefers experience.

It doesn't matter who the manager is. We can sack Conte tomorrow and we'll be back here in 18 months calling for the next guy to be sacked. That's the kind of club we've been for the entirety of Levy's tenure, the five years of Pochettino aside.

We don't have a plan, or a philosophy as a club and a new manager will not change that.

Fantastic post, the 53+ agree’s/winners says a lot!

The last part is especially the issue, id add that we don’t have a plan or philosophy and we also aren’t hiring managers who play a brand of football that our fans want to see or are willing to accept.

 

[YB123]

This could be reversed by saying why did Conte come if he did not get certain assurances - he had a pretty strong hand at the time? So (and this is not a question to Trix so no ban required) has Levy broken any assurances or did Conte not get /seek them in the first place?
Edit - assurances relating to transfer budget

Levy probably was happy settling for us being 4th before the break and thought, that will do.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Yeah sack Conte.. because another manager is going to get top 4 performances out Lloris, Emerson, Doherty, Sessegnon, Hojbjerg, Dier, Sanchez, Davies, Lenglet and Son on current form! I’m not even gonna hold back, you have to be totally bereft of any concept of what a top 4 squad looks like if you believe that! People need to watch a bit more football, because there are players throughout the entire fucking division all the way down to the bottom of the table that would walk into this squad. 40-50% of them are bottom half of the table level players, some of them even wouldn’t get into top championship sides in certain positions. It’s embarrassing that people believe it’s Conte’s fault these players aren’t performing, they aren’t capable of it! Another manager would come in and they would fail for them too, I really hope it doesn’t happen because we’ll be a fucking laughing stock if we sack Conte, he will go to another club and win things and he’ll rightly laugh in the faces of those that think this is his fault

Completely ? see where you’re coming from mate but 2 things:

1. Conte could end up waking/not renewing rather than us sacking him

2. Even if we do properly back him this jan and summer (very unlikely!) the football will for quite a while remain fairly unwatchable and our fans have run out of patience watching shit boring football for 3 years in a row so a continued re-build with him won’t be fun and still doesn’t guarantee any success

3. The players he wants are quite niche, so when a new manager comes in it’ll be really hard to tweak the squad that is left over to suit a new manager who wants to play a back 4. In a back 3 you need specialist CB’s who can bring the ball out of defence, you need specialist wing backs, you need industrious all round CM’s, say after conte we do finally get a manager in who wants to play football the way we want to see it High press higher possession creative attacking brave etc mabye a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, these types of players we’d have signed for the 3–4-3 won’t be a good fit and we’ll be back at square bloody1.

 

[MattyP]

But Conte isn’t going to sign up for more of this Trix, he must be pulling his hair out. I suspect he wakes up some mornings and wonders whether it is all worth the hassle being with us. That last interview he gave Jamie Weir told me he doesn’t want more of the same. He was really polite and said he loves this group of players and training them, which I believe.

God I hope not, that cost him a lot of money

 

[YB123]

But we also have been dominated when we played 352. People were crying out for us to switch to that formation and it seems the results have been forgotten. We've also been poor with Bentancur. The issue is more than just the formation. That wasn't the reason Lloris slapped into his own net or why no centre back or central midfielder is aware enough to close down a player on the edge of the box. There's a massive mental issue among the players. Too many confidence players as Conte mentioned earlier in the season.

I'm talking about the Arsenal game in particular. It was glaringly obvious we needed another body in midfield.

Of course Lloris set the tone again but i'm focussing on the tactics purely for yesterday and it was very very wrong. And i'd go as far as saying thats not an opinion, its fact.