ENIC...

[Stuart Leathercock]

Not true. Latest figures:

1. Manchester City £220m
2. Manchester United £214.8m
3. Chelsea £202.5m
4. Liverpool £190m
5. Arsenal £175m
6. Tottenham £151.5m
7. Everton £114m
8. Leicester City £86.2m
9. West Ham £79.8m
11. Wolverhampton £75.9m
10. Southampton £75.9m
12. Crystal Palace £63.3m
13. Newcastle United £63m
14. Aston Villa £55.7m
15. Fulham £51.2m
16. West Brom £45.6m
17. Brighton £43m
18. Burnley £39m
19. Leeds United £31.4m
20. Sheffield United £28.6m

Yes, we're the lowest payers of the top 6 currently. But we're clearly in that group rather than another and, as previously stated, we have yet to start reaping the benefits of our huge investment in infrastructure. When we do, our ability to pay competitive wages will greatly increase.

Good to see that we're not TOO far behind Arsenal. Though if we looks at departures compared to incomings between last season and this season I suspect we have cut our wage bill this year compared to last (Toby, Sissoko, Lamala, Bale, Vinicius and Aurier all gone and all pretty high or very high earners).

 

[Fredo]

Get the ****s out ASAP

 

[Wsussexspur]

I like how you casually drop in the COVID situation as if it is only a minor matter! It (and the Omicron scare especially) is clearly by far the biggest reason for the recent drop in attendances.

Why else would they suddenly have fallen by 10K just before Christmas, shortly after the club appointed one of the top five managers in the world and at a time when our league form is excellent and we are very much in the mix for 4th place (if not actually favourites for 4th)? Spurs is one of the few clubs that reports actual attendance rather than mere tickets sold. I'd wager that a large proportion of the empty seats are season ticket holders choosing not to attend until the global outlook is better.

Also bear in mind that international travel has been severely restricted for the past few years. Anyone who has regularly attended games over recent years will bear witness to the large number of foreign fans and tourists at games prior to COVID. Once global travel returns to something like normal, I don't doubt that foreign fans will return again in numbers.

Lastly, you talk about a trend of underinvestment and mid table malaise. But neither are trends, are they? Certainly, we underinvested in the years prior to moving into the new stadium. But then we invested heavily (and badly, alas). As to league form, we finished last season outside the top 6 for the first time in over a decade - and even then, only as low as 7th. Now we are well positioned to challenge for the top 4 again. We have undoubtedly fallen far from our peak under Poch but to describe where we currently are as a "trend of mid table malaise" is more than a tad melodramatic.

English stadiums have been allowed to operate at full capacity since the start of the season! We are lead to believe by the club that there are 80k + fans on the season ticket list, 100’s thousands of members and tickets rarely ever go to general sale.. Yet barring 3 games we have failed to sell out or get close to selling out our wonderful new stadium! Yes covid is a factor no doubt about that however if the club are to believed we should be one of the hottest tickets in town and selling out or close to selling out every week.

Fans have had enough of the under investment and bad management of the football side of the club over the past 20 + years by Daniel Levy and Joe Lewis. It’s starting to look like they are about to make another massive mistake by not investing in this window when the manager has clearly stated he wants new players. Let’s not forget Conte is not a man to messed with if he isn’t happy with how things are going and he isn’t getting what he has asked for in the transfer windows then there is every chance he will walk!

If he does and it is due to the lack of investment and continued bad decisions being made by the club do you think the stadium is going to sell out at all? People aren’t going to pay the high ticket prices every week to watch the rubbish that has been produced on the pitch by this team for 3 seasons! Also everyone knows Conte is the last throw of the dice for Enic so to speak. They mess him about what other top manager is going to go near this club and work with Paratici and levy? No one! As they know they will not be backed and all Enic care about its the profits!

you may kid yourself that we aren’t heading back to mid table medicoracy! But unless this manager is backed fully then that is exactly where we are going as this current squad is no better than that and teams like Arsenal and West Ham, Leicester , Aston Villa are all investing and improving all the time- maybe not in this transfer window in some of their cases but they have been and we are just standing still or regressing mainly due to Levy’s/Enics bad decisions! Look at the 100’s of millions pounds they have wasted in the last three years on bad appointments as managers? Awful transfer stratagey, which also comes from giving three separate managers money to spend in the transfer windows and then sacking them soon after. They also give man who is has been the one leading the recruitment for 4 years or more a promotion why? He has been an disaster as has the transfers brought in during his time!
They then appoint a director of football who for anyone who does any research on him can clearly see is a disaster waiting to happen! They can’t seem to get anything right when it comes to running the football side of the club!

As I said earlier surely this is Levy’s and Enics last chance to turn the club around! Yet it currently looks like they are messing that up as well!

 

[KirstyG]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that ENIC can't handle what we have become (on cusp of becoming)

Something akin to Frankenstein and his monster - they built something that they can no longer control and their tried and tested methods are now just tired.

It's what happens all the time with people who create products/services and then overtime the thing becomes almost too successful and they can't manage it all. Usually the product fails OR they sell it on so it can get a new lease of life.

There isn't really a halfway house.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

G

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that ENIC can't handle what we have become (on cusp of becoming)

Something akin to Frankenstein and his monster - they built something that they can no longer control and their tried and tested methods are now just tired.

It's what happens all the time with people who create products/services and then overtime the thing becomes almost too successful and they can't manage it all. Usually the product fails OR they sell it on so it can get a new lease of life.

There isn't really a halfway house.

Good points, never thought of the situation before like that. Always great to get a fresh insightful look at the ENIC reign
For me it's basically simple they won't put their own money into the club, which is why clubs like Chelsea and City have much better owners

 

[KirstyG]

G
Good points, never thought of the situation before like that. Always great to get a fresh insightful look at the ENIC reign
For me it's basically simple they won't put their own money into the club, which is why clubs like Chelsea and City have much better owners

Thank you, I think it is obviously partly that but I think it's also why Levy finds it hard to step back from the football side of things and also partly why the money doesn't get put in. It's a failure to understand what it REALLY takes to take the club to the next level. Not the infrastructure because those things are quite apparent and there are a whole host of consultants to help you along the way. Infrastructure is also very visible and you can go on tours and see the tangible stuff of what makes a successful club - but it's all the other bits, the day to day operations, the way you conduct yourself in the business etc that's what sets those clubs apart. We are currently pretenders and it seems reached the very edge of our competence in this arena.

That's not to say Levy isn't a great business man, but we ALL have our levels of competence and for successful people (especially) it is often harder for them to accept that they have reached their level of competence.

 

[hellava_tough]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that ENIC can't handle what we have become (on cusp of becoming)

Something akin to Frankenstein and his monster - they built something that they can no longer control and their tried and tested methods are now just tired.

It's what happens all the time with people who create products/services and then overtime the thing becomes almost too successful and they can't manage it all. Usually the product fails OR they sell it on so it can get a new lease of life.

There isn't really a halfway house.

I said similar before.

Tbh, Levy and Joe should sell up and then buy another club where they can start again (if they're looking for something to do lol).

Levy is a CFO property developer and fair play to him for that and the success he's had.

But he's not an elite-level sports Director or CEO.

It's obvious that he's out of his depth operating at the pinnacle of the game, in the world's toughest league.

 

[KirstyG]

I said similar before.

Tbh, Levy and Joe should sell up and then buy another club where they can start again (if they're looking for something to do lol).

Levy is a CFO property developer and fair play to him for that and the success he's had.

But he's not an elite-level sports Director or CEO.

It's obvious that he's out of his depth operating at the pinnacle of the game, in the world's toughest league.

Problem is what makes them successful - ego, drive, determination etc is what can hold them back in accepting that they can't take it any further. To the detriment of what they have built.

 

[thelak]

Incredible if you go back to the first few pages of this threat people were having exactly the same debate about our ambitions under ENIC

i.e limited to none other than investing in infrastructure and riding the PL gravy train

 

[ShelfWatcher]

Thank you, I think it is obviously partly that but I think it's also why Levy finds it hard to step back from the football side of things and also partly why the money doesn't get put in. It's a failure to understand what it REALLY takes to take the club to the next level. Not the infrastructure because those things are quite apparent and there are a whole host of consultants to help you along the way. Infrastructure is also very visible and you can go on tours and see the tangible stuff of what makes a successful club - but it's all the other bits, the day to day operations, the way you conduct yourself in the business etc that's what sets those clubs apart. We are currently pretenders and it seems reached the very edge of our competence in this arena.

That's not to say Levy isn't a great business man, but we ALL have our levels of competence and for successful people (especially) it is often harder for them to accept that they have reached their level of competence.

Yep, the classic Peter Principle ?
Thanks again for your insightful contributions

 

[KirstyG]

Incredible if you go back to the first few pages of this threat people were having exactly the same debate about our ambitions under ENIC

i.e limited to none other than investing in infrastructure and riding the PL gravy train

I just don't think ENIC know what to do now. Keeping investing in infrastructure is simple and tangible. It has a process (planning and purchasing) and then an output - the thing itself. The football side of things on other hand is messy and unpredictable and they don't seem to be able to handle that.

 

[thelak]

I just don't think ENIC know what to do now. Keeping investing in infrastructure is simple and tangible. It has a process (planning and purchasing) and then an output - the thing itself. The football side of things on other hand is messy and unpredictable and they don't seem to be able to handle that.

Or they are happy with the current status quo banking on lucrative TV revenues and a level of fan loyalty that will remain as long as we don’t completely collapse without spending too much on players = high margins and profits relative to risk taken

 

[ShelfWatcher]

I think both Kirsty and thelak are correct..
ENIC have messed up the football side. But if we are predominantly a property company looking for asset appreciation with football as a convenient peg to hang that on, then ENIC are happy with results so far.
To switch metaphors a little, maybe we are a football laundering outfit ?
Whatever ENIC see themselves as, many of us as football fans are sick of it
But many on here still seem to back ENIC.
I might see it as Stockholm Syndrome, doesn't make me right ???
But anyway ENIC out and asap

 

[KirstyG]

Or they are happy with the current status quo banking on lucrative TV revenues and a level of fan loyalty that will remain as long as we don’t completely collapse without spending too much on players = high margins and profits relative to risk taken

Think there is a great deal of truth in that but that could also be achieved without spending quite so big on the stadium etc so it's like they have their foot in both camps, thinking if by some miracles, their way of dealing in transfer market gives success then they can capitalise. Hence why ended up with Conte. Because could have gone for something between Nuno and him. Success n the pitch greatly improves ability to get sponsorship, tv rights etc etc so at some point they have to 'twist' to accelerate revenues or they have to sell at the right moment, as they are currently at the point of diminishing returns with no european football imminent.

Either way it is messed up and they can't deal with what they have built and the expectations that are growing from it.

 

[danielneeds]

I’ve been thinking about where we are currently and the biggest conclusion is that we’re just caught between two different types of football club, and are in a sort of purgatory as a result.

On one hand, you’ve got the kind of club that Levy and the marketing department try to portray us as, one of the biggest clubs in the world, rich and powerful, we don’t sell our best players and we want to compete for big prizes. But at the same time, we don’t compete for the best players in the market, so we’ve been left with a squad that has had more transfer failures than successes and players sticking round longer than they should.

On the other hand, you have the club we used to be under early Poch. A project club, that looks to develop young players, maybe sell them on to the European superpowers if the price is right. If you accept that most players want to play for Real, Bayern, etc, then we became an attractive destination for young talent, a place where they could be coached and show their talent.

The hiring of Jose and Conte shows that Levy is not thinking of going back to the project model at the moment, but without the budget to compete with top clubs, and with young stars seeing clubs like Dortmund who will sell them at the right price as being more attractive, then it leaves us in a footballing hinterland with no identity or direction to speak of.

 

[dudu]

Good to see that we're not TOO far behind Arsenal. Though if we looks at departures compared to incomings between last season and this season I suspect we have cut our wage bill this year compared to last (Toby, Sissoko, Lamala, Bale, Vinicius and Aurier all gone and all pretty high or very high earners).

So your original assumption was incorrect?

 

[sausage]

Kind of crazy that some of you lot, who are committed to your hills, are saying things like "made a mess of the football side"

On the football side, we're essentially hovering around the top four, behind two clubs that are ran with reckless disregard in Chelsea/City, who still needed a good 10 seasons of spending to get to dominance, and who neither own modern stadia.
We've got one of the best managers in the game.

What do you currently call Everton, then, who have spend money like you'd like to, who are now grazing around Alan Sugar style because of the FFP implications? What right do we have, under any ownership, to justify being top of the pile right now?

 

[Pimp_Spur]

ENIC / Levy operate in the transfer window as if buying players is a nuisance and a distraction from their property development ambitions.

Over the last 20 years they have been no different when it comes to transfers, initially the strategy was to buy young english talent and hope they develop into stars.......that failed. Then they thought lets widen the market and buy young unproven foreign stars.....that failed. Then they thought lets invest in the training facility and bring through our young talent........apart from HK that idea has failed. Then it was lets go down the route of loan with a view to buy.....that has failed. When they have splashed the £££ on the likes of Lo Celso and Ndombele they have again failed.

The whole structure & philosophy in the transfer window has been a joke since they have been owners. Yes in 20 years we have had some gems (Bale, VdV) but you are bound to get lucky on a few occasions with such a hit and miss system. Even when we cashed in on Bale, 7 years later it was Bale who replaced himself as the large majority of that £90m was wasted on rubbish apart from Eriksen and Lamela to a lesser extent.

Then we have the master businessman who is a shrewd operator that gets the best deals in the market......mmmmhhhh
A stadium that is over budget and delivered late, manager after manager that have received large pay offs. Penny pinching on transfers e.g. Grealish who subsequently went on to be sold for £100m, we could of had him for peanuts if the bald one just paid up.

We now have yet another transfer saga for Traore ffs. The 9th richest club in the world and we can't get a £20m Wolves substitute signed up early in the transfer Window because they are probably haggling over the sake of £1-2m and some stadium tour vouchers!

Charge fans big club ticket prices and then act like Macclesfield in the transfer market. Their time is up and was up a long time ago. I have had a ST for the majority of their ownership and after this season I am no longer going to renew. I will just pick and chose when / if i want to go to games and buy the tickets for said game. We don't sell out anyway so its not difficult to get tickets even for the big games.

Just remember, if nothing changes then nothing will change. While ENIC and Levy are about we will always just be the same old Tottenham.

 

[danielneeds]

Kind of crazy that some of you lot, who are committed to your hills, are saying things like "made a mess of the football side"

On the football side, we're essentially hovering around the top four, behind two clubs that are ran with reckless disregard in Chelsea/City, who still needed a good 10 seasons of spending to get to dominance, and who neither own modern stadia.
We've got one of the best managers in the game.

What do you currently call Everton, then, who have spend money like you'd like to, who are now grazing around Alan Sugar style because of the FFP implications? What right do we have, under any ownership, to justify being top of the pile right now?

I don’t think most sensible posters would expect us to be spending like Chelsea or City. What I expect is joined up thinking and a sense of strategy. At the moment we’ve hired a “win now” manager who’s extremely volatile when he doesn’t get backed in the transfer market at a time when it seems we’ve got no real genuine rnoney to spend. It just seems like we’re heading for combustion.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

ENIC / Levy operate in the transfer window as if buying players is a nuisance and a distraction from their property development ambitions.

Over the last 20 years they have been no different when it comes to transfers, initially the strategy was to buy young english talent and hope they develop into stars.......that failed. Then they thought lets widen the market and buy young unproven foreign stars.....that failed. Then they thought lets invest in the training facility and bring through our young talent........apart from HK that idea has failed. Then it was lets go down the route of loan with a view to buy.....that has failed. When they have splashed the £££ on the likes of Lo Celso and Ndombele they have again failed.

The whole structure & philosophy in the transfer window has been a joke since they have been owners. Yes in 20 years we have had some gems (Bale, VdV) but you are bound to get lucky on a few occasions with such a hit and miss system. Even when we cashed in on Bale, 7 years later it was Bale who replaced himself as the large majority of that £90m was wasted on rubbish apart from Eriksen and Lamela to a lesser extent.

Then we have the master businessman who is a shrewd operator that gets the best deals in the market......mmmmhhhh
A stadium that is over budget and delivered late, manager after manager that have received large pay offs. Penny pinching on transfers e.g. Grealish who subsequently went on to be sold for £100m, we could of had him for peanuts if the bald one just paid up.

We now have yet another transfer saga for Traore ffs. The 9th richest club in the world and we can't get a £20m Wolves substitute signed up early in the transfer Window because they are probably haggling over the sake of £1-2m and some stadium tour vouchers!

Charge fans big club ticket prices and then act like Macclesfield in the transfer market. Their time is up and was up a long time ago. I have had a ST for the majority of their ownership and after this season I am no longer going to renew. I will just pick and chose when / if i want to go to games and buy the tickets for said game. We don't sell out anyway so its not difficult to get tickets even for the big games.

Just remember, if nothing changes then nothing will change. While ENIC and Levy are about we will always just be the same old Tottenham.

Well said PS, and incidentally in reply to danielneeds, a little bit tongue in cheek but basically my true and real opinion?
I consider myself a sensible poster and I do expect us to spend like Chelsea because I wanted RA all those years ago, when so many Spurs fans said no, no, noENIC are better.
I wonder how many still think that, for me they were wrong wrong wrong