ENIC...

[Beni]

I never said we was, what I'm referring to is when you invest that much in facilities then look smug about it you have to remain among the big boys.
If you look at the current team it is an uninspiring, average team which looks to be further away from glory than it ever has been.
There has to be questions over why this time was not prepared properly Sunday, both physically and mentally the team looks jaded and not up to the task before it.

Yes I agree but is a balancing act. In wanting to be a bigger club to increase more revenues, attract better players, we were overdue in this happening and has taken years to get the stadium finally built. The impact was always going to be a balancing act on recruitment of players and making sure loans are repaid.

I cannot comment on what goes on behind the scenes with regards to preparations for Sundays game, all I can go by is what we read and see from news and pre-season. The only players that has really had any pre-season, were Lloris, Alderweireld, Lamela, Dele, Son, Lucas, Bergwijn, Davies, Dier, Sessegnon, Cirkin, White and Hojbjerg.

But Sundays result, or lack of preparation due to injuries, lockdowns etc isn't down to ENIC

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

It's a valiant attempt. But helps make the criticism . There is no strategy. Levy gets influenced by short term events and then flip flops in contradictory directions.

Personally I support the Dortmund/Sevilla/ etc etc model for us....but it has to be consistent, can't just keep dropping it in a panic

I broadly agree but there would be some difficulty with us adopting the Dortmund / Sevilla model - namely, that, in addition to buying well, it depends upon selling their top players too. Our fans wouldn’t stand for that.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Yes I agree but is a balancing act. In wanting to be a bigger club to increase more revenues, attract better players, we were overdue in this happening and has taken years to get the stadium finally built. The impact was always going to be a balancing act on recruitment of players and making sure loans are repaid.

I cannot comment on what goes on behind the scenes with regards to preparations for Sundays game, all I can go by is what we read and see from news and pre-season. The only players that has really had any pre-season, were Lloris, Alderweireld, Lamela, Dele, Son, Lucas, Bergwijn, Davies, Dier, Sessegnon, Cirkin, White and Hojbjerg.

But Sundays result, or lack of preparation due to injuries, lockdowns etc isn't down to ENIC

So is it ever ENIC’s fault regarding results?

 

[Trotter]

There is quite a stir online about them taking this £40m out of the club yet I cant remember it being mentioned in any set of accounts. Surely it would of been in there and identified by an eagle eyed fan or journalist or one of those ten a penny financial experts on Twitter.

It might be there somewhere but I'm perplexed, if so, why it hasn't been brought to anyones attention before.

Club money has been used to do a buy back and cancellation of ordinary shares, which has the effect to increase their share % without investing any of their own money. Have a look in 2015 accounts (available online, there is some movement in that year, only pulled the 2015 and 2019 as that was in effect the comparison SR was doing, but it seems continual, although none happened in 2019), so yes in effect he is right to a certain extent, they have taken money out of the club, but they have not benefitted from the whole £40m as ENIC do not own 100% of shares, the other small shareholders will have benefited a little of those buy-back also.
Just gone back to prior years, this only started in 2015.


Basically in laymans terms, the club have directly bought some of the shares that ENIC didn't own, and instead of ENIC then buying them, they have just cancelled the shares and reduced the overall share capital.
In example numbers we had £500 million worth of shares of which ENIC owned £ 400m, others £100m (ENIC own 80%), club (not ENIC) spent £ 40m to buy up some other shareholdings. ENIC still own £ 400m, but others are now just £60m (and ENIC own 87%) without having spent a penny of their money, but instead having spent monies that could otherwise be used for players etc.

 

[Beni]

So is it ever ENIC’s fault regarding results?

Of course it is, our progress or lack of progress shoud be collective. My response to ShelfBoys post, was replying specifically about the perception on how we looked physically and mentally jaded and appeared lack of preparation.

 

[Young Nasty Man]

I don't think the delusion stops with levy, it looks as if Jose thought and convinced himself that the team didn't need a lot to get back to being a challenger.
I think we are all now seeing this is not the case and this club is way off of achieving anything.
Time and football waits for no one and so other clubs will catch us up and maybe go past us while we try to get back amongst it.
The club needs to be sold off with new ambitious owners taking the helm, but unfortunately I can see the club pricing itself out of a takeover, with rumours circulating that a club like west ham maybe about to be sold for a more reasonable price is more appealing to potential owners.

I agree. What’s even worse is that I don’t think Levy wants to sell. Sports owners use this as for a lot of different reasons - capital, laundering (not Levy), tax breaks. The biggest issue is when you have a club who’s assets are highly priced, the question is how much more value can it gain? Most of the infrastructure has been built and the requirements for success to drive value are there.

Living in America, I tend to see sports owners that do all different types of things with their teams. The consistent barometer of ‘fan success’, which ultimately drives, revenue boils down to results. The stadium does have a lot to do with it, especially if you double the size of your stadium, like we did. I can’t disagree with that logic. But if you want to achieve statuses that few clubs have such as Man U, Real, Bayern, etc., you need to want those results so bad that you’ll pay for it, our have an Academy that produces talent time and time again. But even if you look at Barcelona, they have their own problems they’ve created from buying so much talent and Bartomeu mismanaging their direction. It’s also important to mention the right infrastructure has to be there, which I do feel we finally have.

As a Knicks and Jets fan, I live in one of the biggest markets in the world, and both of my teams have the most incompetent owners - far worse than Levy. The issue that all 3 sets of owners have - Dolan, Johnson and Levy - is that they don’t have the balls to put a football expert in charge to dictate the decision and direction of the sport. Maybe I’m just so sour because Tottenham have given me the most joy, and we can’t even get that fully done right. The only way I unfortunately see us improving is either an oil tycoon or royal family cash injection, football director who has free reign with complete vision, or a completely unique model. Levy seems to have caught us between this model of wanting to be Dortmund and looking like a half built version of that. I don’t mind being a team who sells its talent to bigger clubs and being a youth factory for global sensations. We just need to commit to that model, and recruit that type of talent and do what it takes. Instead, we bargain, broker, and look for a deal, which will never work without true focus on football from professionals that know the game. Stay down this road and you’ll be dealing with a similar world to my Knicks team that has been dreadful for 20+ years where my best memories are of a time when I was looking forward to play off games where Michael Jordan owned the league. Sadly, the Knicks are one of the highest valued teams in the NBA and Dolan will never sell.

 

[jurgen]

That isn't really of relevance - people postulate the opposite "Levy will never do this because he's never done that", but there is at least an argument as to why that is the case - we've been spending a ton of money on other things. The above is simply an optimistic viewpoint of "we won't have that excuse going forwards, therefore it is completely possible and logical to suggest that the free income will be there". There's rarely been any exception towards that, and it's like you're trying to suggest that any suggestion of fault is shut down - when it isn't. It's the most common thread of opinion in here.

The cherry picking of facts relates more to how people will say that "we signed no one for 2 years", or "we haven't had a backup striker for 6 years" when we have. Stuff like that. I have no issues with opinion as long as there's some logic/truth to it.
The problem is that you seem to be making objections to me opening up a discussion or debating it, whereas the other side is that I (or other like-minded people) are rarely (if ever) afforded that, and just get negative-rating bombed. It has to be a pretty wild or ridiculous post from the anti-ENIC/DL guys to attract the same sort of ratings...again, if ever.



Absolutely. The only question now is paying the fees and wages. There was a time not too long ago when we were dead in the water as soon as Utd/City/Arse/Chelsea showed any interest. We'd be getting players at the end of the careers, not the start. The fact that TND/GLC came from some lesser team isn't relevant - both were being coveted by big teams.
The bigger statement though is that we hold on to players. We've not had a Modric/Bale/Berbatov/Carrick type mutiny for a long time now.





This is kind of an example of what bugs me - from the other side, possibly yours, Levy is to blame for everything and Poch was just a victim (for the most part). There are others, like myself, who prefer to be balanced and say that there is blame to be shared around. The manager is absolutely to blame for a lot of stuff. Your interpretation is 'it's always the manager's fault' - no, it's that the manager is at fault for the very obvious things he does wrong!
Why is Redknapp not at fault for interviewing Rodgers for a job he couldn't offer at the same time as we went on diabolical form? He has admitted, reluctantly, before that he thought he had it and took his eye off the ball. There's load of examples that would drag off topic.


Here's the killer though -



Why, in your view, does that only apply to managers and not DL? It is true of both. That's the main issue really.

There generally appears to be a complete intolerance of gratitude or appreciation towards what the ownership has done for us, and the rebuttal is "but you criticise the manager"?

In my first paragraph I said ENIC are responsible for our sustained improvement.. I also said that I generally admire Levy's thinking in managerial appointments.

I'm not objecting to a debate, I'm disagreeing with your reading and framing of things and similar cases of cherry picking and I'm not sure your answers are rebuttals to that. I don't believe that you can position your argument on future funds as any more logical than the alternative which might be broadly described as 'we will make loads of money from the stadium but our prior dealings suggest we cannot be certain as fans that this will be primarily used to improve the playing squad'.

It's interesting that you also use the argument about the stadium expenditure to justify your position that you believe we'll start spending now those other costs are compartmentalised. If you want to bring the stadium costs in as mitigation then you also need to factor in the words from our chairman's mouth that these two areas would not affect one another. I don't think Levy's words were lies, but perhaps a bit naive to state so explicitly. But either way, it presents a strong logical argument that things may not go the way we hope in terms of future investments.

Of course the truth is we don't know that either way, but it's a stretch to claim that your position is more logical than the opposite one, which you characterise as more emotive and reactive.

I'm afraid it is relevant that TND/GLC came from lesser teams, because the context is not much different to us getting the players I already mentioned, who were certainly also coveted by big teams. So these aren't players we never could have attracted without the training ground because we've bought players of a similar profile before. But maybe they are players we couldn't have attracted without the manager we had, hired by Levy of course (they'd also have come for Jose I am sure, but maybe not for Tactics Tim). Your original point was that the building of the training centre directly contributed to those transfers.

I do agree that the club is growing in terms of being able to keep players for longer which is great, and although neither TND/GLC have shone as we know they might yet, they're certainly the type of signing we should be making - because they're the type of signing we made before, but a young breakout 20m player 5 years ago is not the same price now.

And concerning those cherry picked stats you quote on transfers and so on, how many times have we been told we were "terrible for 18 months under Poch"? Someone even quoted it as 2 years the other day.. we were 2nd behind Liverpool 11 months before his sacking. So hyperbole certainly isn't limited to one side.

I also don't believe my points above simply amounted to 'but you criticise the manager', however you can read it how you wish. But I'm not sure I buy this idea that there's a cadre of 'logical' posters fighting the good fight against the hordes of ENIC-outers, because there's supposition in every post unless we can get the man himself on here.

 

[sausage]

I broadly agree but there would be some difficulty with us adopting the Dortmund / Sevilla model - namely, that, in addition to buying well, it depends upon selling their top players too. Our fans wouldn’t stand for that.

Hence why 'perfect' will never exist based on the opposing definitions.

 

[spuradik]

No dump that.....new systems coach Pochettino....things go well until....
...he did a Ramos. Obviously lost the players. Tactics went weird and selections were very strange at times. Was brought in under the 'Sporting Director' model but moaned about it until he was made manager and Mitchell was pushed out.

This Poch revisionism pisses me off. Poch lost faith in Levy and as a consequence the project. So did the players. He was clearly jaded from lack of investment for the past 4 years and when we finally did sign players in his final season, we were still left short.

You seem to conveniently discount the fact that we had players who were running down their contracts, players that we were unable to move on, and a few players that were nearing the end of their playing careers (Toby, Dembele, Verts, Eriksen). It was obvious that all caught up to us and played a part in affecting our performances negatively. So, is he, at the end of the day the one who is responsible for replenishing the squad and managing the player contracts?

Painting Poch, one of our most successful managers in the modern era whose loyalty and integrity was unquestionable, as a moaning/whining character is quite honestly pathetic. Even if he did complain, he had every right to do so considering the little to no backing he got from Levy. There is absolutely no comparison to Ramos. Managers who lose the loyalty of the players do not get emotional posts on twitter appreciating what he gave them and what he meant to them. They don't react like they do when Verts shook his head when he learned about the manner of Poch's sacking in the documentary.

 

[shelfboy68]

Yes I agree but is a balancing act. In wanting to be a bigger club to increase more revenues, attract better players, we were overdue in this happening and has taken years to get the stadium finally built. The impact was always going to be a balancing act on recruitment of players and making sure loans are repaid.

I cannot comment on what goes on behind the scenes with regards to preparations for Sundays game, all I can go by is what we read and see from news and pre-season. The only players that has really had any pre-season, were Lloris, Alderweireld, Lamela, Dele, Son, Lucas, Bergwijn, Davies, Dier, Sessegnon, Cirkin, White and Hojbjerg.

But Sundays result, or lack of preparation due to injuries, lockdowns etc isn't down to ENIC

Again I never said preparation was down to ENIC, having said that their job is to provide the manager with the best tools to work with.
I don't believe they support the manager as well as they could do, we have heard various comments over the years of having the rug pulled from under their feet regarding players.
Whether they fully back Jose remains to be seen and as it stands the team is still lacking in areas, are we confident that come October this club is ready to go I have my doubts.

 

[sausage]

This Poch revisionism pisses me off. Poch lost faith in Levy and as a consequence the project. So did the players. He was clearly jaded from lack of investment for the past 4 years and when we finally did sign players in his final season, we were still left short.

Moreover we had players who were running down their contracts, players that we were unable to move on, and a few players that were nearing the end of their playing careers (Toby, Dembele, Verts, Eriksen). It was obvious that all caught up to us and played a part in affecting our performances negatively. But the point still stands - at the end of the day who is responsible for replenishing the squad and managing the player contracts?

Painting Poch, one of our most successful managers in the modern era whose loyalty and integrity was unquestionable, as a moaning/whining character is quite honestly pathetic. Even if he did complain, he had every right to do so considering the little to no backing he got from Levy. There is absolutely no comparison to Ramos. Managers who lose the loyalty of the players do not get emotional posts on twitter appreciating what he gave them and what he meant to them. They don't react like they do when Verts shook his head when he learned about the manner of Poch's sacking in the documentary.

This is also 'Poch revisionism' that also annoys people.

It was all downhill from the book onwards. He started flirting with the idea of leaving not too long after, and it was when Mourinho got sacked from United that he really started to annoy people on here (I can remember it and it'll be searchable, even if no one wants to accept it). He started suggesting things that openly put his future into doubt not long after the club paid a record fee for a player he openly lauded. That's where you can see a chink in the 'loyalty and integrity was unquestionable', as 2019 was basically full of subtle hints that he would leave/quit if x,y,z. Even just before the CL final. Granted some of it may have been media spin, but it was said and a lot of people on here believe it impacted the squad.

You can say that Poch might have lost interest or faith in the club and so his focus went, definitely. You can't bypass Poch for the reasoning why the players lost interest; that's just not possible. Who has wanted to leave since Poch went? Lloris for example, arguably Poch's biggest supporter in the squad, is more than happy to stay.

They don't react like they do when Verts shook his head when he learned about the manner of Poch's sacking in the documentary.

Flip side - Toby's reaction when he heard the news. You also mention him with contracts - ITK always referenced an issue with Poch and he was winding down his contract, then signed pretty soon after Poch left. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.

While Poch may have become annoyed at times, he is openly accepting of the fact that he didn't really have a lot of justification for some of it - he came to us knowing the 4 or 5 year plan that involved a level of austerity, ending with the stadium build. He's said pretty much that very recently. You can marry a nun then get annoyed that she's frigid - but that's different as to whether you are justified in doing so.



What you've mostly done is underline what I said in a previous post - for some people it seems like the anger at the club is a denial that the manager is at fault. The reality is that clubs and managers sometimes get out of sync and have their own completely independent failings.

 

[DiVaio]

cannot disagree with anything Danny Kelly says here

we are currently a poor team compared to 3 years ago

Yeah of course, Levy is very, very bad and we had better team 3 years ago but it's really not that simple because football is changing, we have different manager now and :

• Hard to adequately replace probably top 3 right back in the world in time he left. I don't remember who from Aurier and Pereira was Poch's first target but then both was good options to buy. Last summer we didn't buy because Poch wanted Foyth to play here (understandable decision as he shown good qualities there).
• Same as Walker, Sessegnon has great potential and was the only one linked player with us from reliable sources as someone to 'upgrade' Rose
• Vertonghen at the end of his Spurs career in reality was 4th choice for CB, Mourinho obviously likes Dier and we have Tanganga too so I'm not sure how Levy is to blame for not replacing Vertonghen at this moment.
• Need more time to say that because Hojbjerg was actually the first reliable link for someone who can been as Wanyama replacement since Wanyama couldn't run. And again, different manager, different tactics for that position
• Ndombele will be better than Dembele
• Eriksen is replaced by Lo Celso and Bergwijn, Mourinho before Everton said he is happy with his 'playmaking' options,

 

[Beni]

Again I never said preparation was down to ENIC, having said that their job is to provide the manager with the best tools to work with.
I don't believe they support the manager as well as they could do, we have heard various comments over the years of having the rug pulled from under their feet regarding players.
Whether they fully back Jose remains to be seen and as it stands the team is still lacking in areas, are we confident that come October this club is ready to go I have my doubts.

Yeah, agree that it is down to ENIC to provide the manager with the right tools etc, and so far I can only go from what Mourinho has said in many recent press conferences, and has onlypraised Levy on getting the players he wanted. Only standing request now, is a striker, which Mourinho wants and needs, and Mourinho has confirmed that the club agree with him and want the same.

I know we haven't got that striker in yet, and that is frustrating, however we have 3 weeks to go before the window closes and I am sure one will be brought. Having a striker signed, may or may have no had a more positive effect on Sundays game, however in my opinion getting Lo Celso back from injury, and players lack of fitness up/match sharpness up would have had and will be a bigger impact to results and performances.

 

[tototoner]

Yeah of course, Levy is very, very bad and we had better team 3 years ago but it's really not that simple because football is changing, we have different manager now and :

• Hard to adequately replace probably top 3 right back in the world in time he left. I don't remember who from Aurier and Pereira was Poch's first target but then both was good options to buy. Last summer we didn't buy because Poch wanted Foyth to play here (understandable decision as he shown good qualities there).
• Same as Walker, Sessegnon has great potential and was the only one linked player with us from reliable sources as someone to 'upgrade' Rose
• Vertonghen at the end of his Spurs career in reality was 4th choice for CB, Mourinho obviously likes Dier and we have Tanganga too so I'm not sure how Levy is to blame for not replacing Vertonghen at this moment.
• Need more time to say that because Hojbjerg was actually the first reliable link for someone who can been as Wanyama replacement since Wanyama couldn't run. And again, different manager, different tactics for that position
• Ndombele will be better than Dembele
• Eriksen is replaced by Lo Celso and Bergwijn, Mourinho before Everton said he is happy with his 'playmaking' options,

Pardon ?

 

[shelfboy68]

Yeah, agree that it is down to ENIC to provide the manager with the right tools etc, and so far I can only go from what Mourinho has said in many recent press conferences, and has onlypraised Levy on getting the players he wanted. Only standing request now, is a striker, which Mourinho wants and needs, and Mourinho has confirmed that the club agree with him and want the same.

I know we haven't got that striker in yet, and that is frustrating, however we have 3 weeks to go before the window closes and I am sure one will be brought. Having a striker signed, may or may have no had a more positive effect on Sundays game, however in my opinion getting Lo Celso back from injury, and players lack of fitness up/match sharpness up would have had and will be a bigger impact to results and performances.

Well we will see but it is so spurs to be in a desperate situation regarding creativity that we are relying on one player, what happens in four weeks if he is out for 4/5 months.
It all seems shortsightedness in our approach to recruitment that leaves us like in the Kane situation overly reliant on one player.

 

[DiVaio]

Pardon ?

These arguments are IMO just wrong. Half of this arguments against Levy in reality comes more into choice of managers(Vertonghen, Wanyama and Eriksen) or not rating Ndombele/Lo Celso at the moment. Yeah, in 2016 Rose and Walker were probably top3 fullbacks pairing in the world and our current fullbacks pairaing is definitely not in top3. But something like that happens to every club, not only Tottenham because ENIC.

He would be to blame for not signing backup striker, because it's OBVIOUS that Jose wants one.

 

[skiba]

Club money has been used to do a buy back and cancellation of shares, which has the effect to increase their share % without investing any of their own money. Have a look in 2015 accounts (available online, there is some movement in that year, only pulled the 2015 and 2019 as that was in effect the comparison SR was doing, but it seems continual, although none happened in 2019), so yes in effect he is right to a certain extent, but not quite the whole £40m as ENIC do not own 100% of shares, the other small shareholders will have benefited from a little of that buy-back also.
Just gone back to prior years, this only started in 2015

Preference shares were issued and purchased for £40m in 2014 by a company under common control. So the repayment and cancellation of the preference shares from 2014 onwards is simply a repayment of the £40m cash injection made previously.

 

[Trotter]

These arguments are IMO just wrong. Half of this arguments against Levy in reality comes more into choice of managers(Vertonghen, Wanyama and Eriksen) or not rating Ndombele/Lo Celso at the moment. Yeah, in 2016 Rose and Walker were probably top3 fullbacks pairing in the world and our current fullbacks pairaing is definitely not in top3. But something like that happens to every club, not only Tottenham because ENIC.

Serious question based on your postings, and at times previously defending the indefensible.
do you have a tottenhamhotspur.com e-mail address ?

 

[shelfboy68]

These arguments are IMO just wrong. Half of this arguments against Levy in reality comes more into choice of managers(Vertonghen, Wanyama and Eriksen) or not rating Ndombele/Lo Celso at the moment. Yeah, in 2016 Rose and Walker were probably top3 fullbacks pairing in the world and our current fullbacks pairaing is definitely not in top3. But something like that happens to every club, not only Tottenham because ENIC.

But we are not worried about other clubs, our failure was not building on that "virtual success" we nearly had.
Since then for varying reasons the recruitment has not been good enough, and I would be sure that Kane may exit the club next year after all what is he going to achieve here.

 

[DiVaio]

Serious question based on your postings, and at times previously defending the indefensible.
do you have a tottenhamhotspur.com e-mail address ?

Mate, this definetely isn't defending the indefensible. You can read post again as I edited because I forgot to include what in reality would be 'indefensible'.