ENIC...

[Shadydan]

We would have been, with 11 games to go if we had beaten West Ham, and finished the season with only 16 points from 11 games.

Agree but that's not what bottling means.

 

[Trotter]

Agree but that's not what bottling means.

That could easily be the game where the term bottling is relevant, we bottled the chance to go top in the run-in, and never recovered, ending the season with 4 wins from 11 games after having the chance to lead it.

 

[Shadydan]

That could easily be the game where the term bottling is relevant, we bottled the chance to go top in the run-in, and never recovered, ending the season with 4 wins from 11 games after having the chance to lead it.

That's not what is called bottling mate, that's called losing a match - you might as well say the same thing when a team has a chance to move into a position which completely ignores the many matches before you had presumably won to put yourself in that position in the first place.

Bottling comes from the term losing your bottle i.e losing your metal in an advantageous position.

What we actually bottled that season was 2nd place, not the title.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

We didn't bottle anything in 2005-06. We were in the top four from early December (a home win against Sunderland) to the last day of the season.

And finished 5th... having had a significant lead over Arsenal which they eroded away and finally overtook us on the last day.

 

[Shadydan]

And finished 5th... having had a significant lead over Arsenal which they eroded away and finally overtook us on the last day.

Pretty sure you're talking about 2011-12

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Pretty sure you're talking about 2011-12

I already mentioned 11/12 and 12/13 under Redknapp and AVB respectively, where yes we threw away leads over Arsenal in the final part of the season to miss out on champions league football. Am I wrong in thinking we also led Arsenal for most of 05/06 but failed to get over the line? Yes, lasagna gate. We also threw away loads of points as Arsenal were chasing.

I know we all love Jol, but we should’ve had fourth sewn up before that final game.

 

[Shadydan]

I already mentioned 11/12 and 12/13 under Redknapp and AVB respectively, where yes we threw away leads over Arsenal in the final part of the season to miss out on champions league football. Am I wrong in thinking we also led Arsenal for most of 05/06 but failed to get over the line? Yes, lasagna gate. We also threw away loads of points as Arsenal were chasing.

I know we all love Jol, but we should’ve had fourth sewn up before that final game.

Oh I see what you mean now.

 

[Metalhead]

You can't bottle a race you were never leading.

Really hate the term 'bottled' anyway. Why does falling out of a competition have to be due to a lack of courage?

 

[Kilkenny Cat]

And finished 5th... having had a significant lead over Arsenal which they eroded away and finally overtook us on the last day.

Dude: that's not bottling. Somebody had to finish fourth and somebody had to finish fifth. Arsenal, who "eroded the lead" because they had games in hand, were a better team that season (they reached the CL final, you'll remember).

Nobody at the time accused Spurs of bottling anything. You're being wise after the event.

 

[Shadydan]

Dude: that's not bottling. Somebody had to finish fourth and somebody had to finish fifth. Arsenal, who "eroded the lead" because they had games in hand, were a better team that season (they reached the CL final, you'll remember).

Nobody at the time accused Spurs of bottling anything. You're being wise after the event.

Actually come to think of it it's harsh to call us bott-lers seeing as we were practically poisoned on the last day.

 

[dagraham]

At what point does being shit become bottling?

I know what you mean, but I was there that day and there’s no doubt in my mind that we bottled it. Yes Utd were a top team, but we played them off the park in the 1st half.

2nd half they put pressure on us from the off and as soon as they scored one early on we shit ourselves. They sensed it, our players sensed it and we could all sense it from the stands.

 

[dontcallme]

I know what you mean, but I was there that day and there’s no doubt in my mind that we bottled it. Yes Utd were a top team, but we played them off the park in the 1st half.

2nd half they put pressure on us from the off and as soon as they scored one early on we shit ourselves. They sensed it, our players sensed it and we could all sense it from the stands.

I agree with that game but in general I was just joking.

 

[nailsy]

The players feeling under appreciated has got nothing to do with bottling it. For a long time our players were paid less than their counterparts at other Premier league clubs despite the fact that they were better players and our team finishing in higher league positions. I'm sure there were players at West Ham earning more than some of our players. If the players have felt underpaid for years it makes sense that negotiations might be difficult, especially when there are players on vastly different weekly wages. There's also the Danny Rose issue. He may be on loan, but if we're still paying a portion of his wages will he accept a pay cut considering his dispute with Daniel Levy? Why should he if the club are trying to force him out?

 

[Metalhead]

I know what you mean, but I was there that day and there’s no doubt in my mind that we bottled it. Yes Utd were a top team, but we played them off the park in the 1st half.

2nd half they put pressure on us from the off and as soon as they scored one early on we shit ourselves. They sensed it, our players sensed it and we could all sense it from the stands.

I think that inexperience has let us down over the years. I wish we had an older player like a Modric who had experience of winning trophies to act as a calm head.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Dude: that's not bottling. Somebody had to finish fourth and somebody had to finish fifth. Arsenal, who "eroded the lead" because they had games in hand, were a better team that season (they reached the CL final, you'll remember).

Nobody at the time accused Spurs of bottling anything. You're being wise after the event.

Actually quite a few did, especially in the media, I distinctly remember one diatribe about our lack of moral fibre which had me particularly riled up. I didn’t feel this at the time, as I was too upset about that final day, but throughout the season there were gifted goals late on in games which led to dropped points, including a few last minutes. One Paul Stalteri was the chief culprit.

I was immensely proud of finishing our highest ever finish in the premier league era, but equally very annoyed at both our misfortune on the final day and our ability to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory on multiple occasions.

You may think we were just victims of circumstance, but to me that’s just a blindness to our own complicity in our failings.

 

[dontcallme]

Actually quite a few did, especially in the media, I distinctly remember one diatribe about our lack of moral fibre which had me particularly riled up. I didn’t feel this at the time, as I was too upset about that final day, but throughout the season there were gifted goals late on in games which led to dropped points, including a few last minutes. One Paul Stalteri was the chief culprit.

I was immensely proud of finishing our highest ever finish in the premier league era, but equally very annoyed at both our misfortune on the final day and our ability to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory on multiple occasions.

You may think we were just victims of circumstance, but to me that’s just a blindness to our own complicity in our failings.

Yeah I don't think it is a rewriting of history. I definitely remember thinking at the time that we had thrown away a good opportunity to finally get 4th.

But looking back at the table we never had much of a lead and there was no collapse. We just weren't quite good enough.

 

[Kilkenny Cat]

Yeah I don't think it is a rewriting of history. I definitely remember thinking at the time that we had thrown away a good opportunity to finally get 4th.

But looking back at the table we never had much of a lead and there was no collapse. We just weren't quite good enough.

Exactly my point!

All of these things are correct. We had a great opportunity to finish fourth and didn't take it. But of the last eight games before the West Ham match, we won 5 and drew 1 (the one at Arsenal), losing at home to Man U (par for the course at the time) and away to Newcastle (who finished seventh that season. In other words, we were averaging two points a game on the run-in.

And BringBack Le Gin is, of course, dead right re Stalteri. He puts that ball into the stand at Highbury, there is no Arsenal equaliser and Spurs reach the CL four years earlier.

 

[Saoirse]

Exactly my point!

All of these things are correct. We had a great opportunity to finish fourth and didn't take it. But of the last eight games before the West Ham match, we won 5 and drew 1 (the one at Arsenal), losing at home to Man U (par for the course at the time) and away to Newcastle (who finished seventh that season. In other words, we were averaging two points a game on the run-in.

And BringBack Le Gin is, of course, dead right re Stalteri. He puts that ball into the stand at Highbury, there is no Arsenal equaliser and Spurs reach the CL four years earlier.

Maybe we do. But it's never that black and white in football. Maybe we'd have lost the qualifier - especially with the likes of Hamburg, Valencia, Ajax, Lille, Benfica, or one of the best teams in the world at the time AC Milan in the seeded section of the draw. Or even worse, maybe the additional pressure and motivation would've been enough for Arsenal to hold on in the Champions League Final and deny us that way, which would've been ever worse. We'll never know for sure, but I prefer to just remember what a great season it was for us overall at the time and how special it was to be back in Europe.

 

[Shadydan]

Some Spurs players felt undervalued in past, making pay cut deal complex

By Charlie Eccleshare Apr 23, 2020

6

As their London rivals Arsenal and Chelsea confirmed this week that their players will take wage cuts, at Tottenham Hotspur such an agreement remains elusive.
Part of the reason why Spurs have not yet reached an agreement, The Athletic understands, is because of a perception among some of the players that they have been undervalued in the past. This is a sentiment that, for some, dates back to the end of the 2016-17 season when the players were disappointed that finishing second did not lead to a big round of pay rises.
Eyebrows were then raised last year when there was no gesture, besides pre-agreed bonuses and an IWC watch each, to mark the phenomenal achievement of reaching the Champions League final. Tough, drawn-out negotiations over contract renewals have been a feature of the Daniel Levy regime meanwhile — though star players like Harry Kane are on hefty wages.
Nonetheless, players are wary of taking wage cuts or deferrals until they are absolutely sure the money is essential for the club and they are not being taken advantage of. The atmosphere was worsened at Spurs by the decision to furlough non-playing staff, which has since been reversed, along with the club’s directors taking a significant pay-cut. When he made the initial decision Levy said he hoped “players and coaches [would do] their bit for the football ecosystem”, which added to the sense he was attempting to force the squad’s hand.
The furloughing frustrated a number of players, who are understood to have suggested — via the player representatives Harry Kane and Hugo Lloris — to the club’s hierarchy that the decision be reversed.
It should be stressed, however, that there are other factors that explain why no deferral or wage cut has as yet been agreed. Reaching an agreement that satisfies all squad members is extremely difficult, and in the Premier League only Chelsea, Arsenal, Watford, Southampton and West Ham have as yet agreed cuts or deferrals with their players.
There is no set deadline as such, but Spurs want to have an agreement in place before their next payday on April 30. It is understood that cuts of up to 30 per cent have been proposed by the club to the players, which the club feels is justified given the financial uncertainty the COVID-19 crisis has unleashed. As explained previously, Spurs could be especially vulnerable given the relatively high proportion of their income that comes from match days and other events. Being able to host matches and external events underpinned the business model behind moving into the £1 billion Tottenham Hotspur Stadium last year.
In response to some players feeling undervalued, the club may also feel it’s their relative frugality that has allowed them to compete at the top level with clubs that have far bigger budgets. It’s also why they posted the highest pre-tax profit of any Premier League club in their last set of annual accounts. Though there is a view that had more of those profits been invested in the team over the last few years, they would have been even more successful.
As for what’s being suggested now, like with any Premier League club there are lots of different options on the table, ranging in timeframe and including both deferrals and cuts as options. What makes the process so challenging is not only the divergence in player salaries and various different clauses in each of their contracts, but also the fact that it is still not known when the season will resume, if at all. The players understand sacrifices and compromises will have to be made, but these are huge decisions being made on incomplete information at a hugely challenging time.
And with first-team wages ranging from around £1,000 a week for Japhet Tanganga to £200,000 for Kane and Tanguy Ndombele, one can see why negotiations are not straightforward. Players also have separate commitments — many are involved for instance in the Players Together initiative that sees them donate money to the NHS.
Ultimately, the Spurs players want to make the decision as a group — though there have been suggestions that a lack of leadership has made reaching a decision even more difficult. The expectation from various sources is that the talks between the club’s hierarchy and the players are likely to rumble on.
In the background is the question of whether head coach Jose Mourinho will take a pay cut or deferral, as Premier League managers David Moyes, Eddie Howe and Graham Potter have done already. The expectation is that Mourinho will take whatever reduction or deferral is agreed for the players, with his focus for the moment on coaching the team.
Despite the logistical challenges, that must feel like a breeze compared to the intractable wage dilemma facing the club’s squad.

How the fek are you happy to sign a contract then claim you're undervalued?

 

[dagraham]

How the fek are you happy to sign a contract then claim you're undervalued?

The bit that got me ( although I remain sceptical whether it’s actually true) is the being miffed that they didn’t get bonuses for reaching the CL final.

We lost. Maybe if they really feel that then we should have played better and got our bonuses from actually winning? I can only imagine what the likes of Roy Keane would make of that.