ENIC - The Poll

[spursfan77]

I wonder if the "ins" are increasing because we brought a player in?

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Please explain to me how appointing Jose and Conte isn't a willingness to win things. And massively increasing our net spend. And wage bill. And amassing one of the biggest squads in the league (which Levy must struggle with because it is financial waste).

I don't sneer at anti Levy/ENIC people, I sneer at arguments I feel are not reflective of reality like "they don't want to win things" and "they are penny pinching". I also sneer at those who use their success as a stick to beat them with - "we're 8th richest club in the world, why don't we act like it!" Completely ignoring how that financial might and stability came about. The economic growth IS what has enabled us to compete, it is what brings in the shiny new toys that everyone wants, it is what has created a foundation for the club to have on-field success against financially doped clubs.

Arguments about managerial appointments, lack of communication, a messy plan, the lack of silverware, can they take us to the very top - those arguments I am much more open to and debate myself.

You sneer at “they don’t want to win things”

Im sure Levy sacked a serial winner on the eve of a cup final? You can’t sneer at that surely!

 

[Karol]

? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

Nail, hit, head

Post more John!

 

[Dazzazzad]

I appreciate you said your open to hearing debates about planning as that's my main gripe but when you spend decades telling fans that this stadium will be a game changer and then it's built and you're in the same spot as before it was built then of course people are going to be angry

But a) it's not the same you just agreed spending has increased a lot (just not enough to make two managers do cartwheels) and b) we're just a few windows into the new stadium post-covid world. I said in this thread or another, I'd like to see how things progress over a few more years before I'd start to conclude nothing has changed. To me it is changing and it will continue to. But let's see.

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

The idea that transfer spending hasn't increased since the stadium and Covid is just incorrect- there has been a step up. Only the oil dopers and Man Utd have spent more than us and Arsenal by £50m, which is basically one deal over the line these days. We've spent more than Liverpool over that time and built a world class stadium. Maybe you'd prefer the league title during that Covid season they had but does it count for much now?

Premier League - Transfer balance and five-year comparison

In dieser Statistik werden die Transferbilanzen der letzten fünf bzw. zehn Jahre der Vereine der Premier League miteinander verglichen.

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

It's true ENIC were too cautious and should have spent more with the Poch and Harry peaks, but other than that (and the Stratford bid) they've followed a more interesting strategy than just selling up to whoever and hoping for the best imho.

By the way if there was a buyer who wants to spend much more money, who is sustainable financially and not morally repugnant I'd be all for it. But I can't see one at the moment.

Looking around the EPL there are not any owners I would rather have. I would have said the Americans but since their Super League was scuppered they're sulking off...

 

[vegassd]

We still can't compete financially with City , United , Chelsea, now Newcastle, Liverpool, even the scum are beating/ matching our spending.

All that's changed is the club has extra money coming , in terms of competing though we're still fifth/sixth richest club.

I disagree - I think we can compete with those clubs, it's more a question of if we will. I'm not going to automatically assume that we won't, but I think I need to see a couple more transfer windows before I would be confident that Levy has the balls for it. At this point in time, I don't think he does.

We spent more than both City and Liverpool in the summer. Obviously that is too small a window to make a full judgement, and the baselines of those squads are very different. But we also spent more than Arsenal in both net and gross I believe, so I think the spending power is there. I firmly believe that spend figures are pretty pointless in isolation though - we need to spend well and to do it on a continual basis.

A more interesting case is Chelsea. It looks like Boehly is selling off their future in order for success right now. That sort of approach is exactly what a lot of fans of any club would love to see, but it doesn't strike me as very smart. If they miss CL for a couple of seasons, where is their spending power going to be? Even if we think FFP is fairly toothless, it still exists and is going to get tighter over the next couple of years.

And a big part of their spend last summer was replacing Rudiger and Christensen for over £100m. That looks good if you are only concerned by a spend amount, but the reality is they had 2 CBs, spent £100m and ended up with 2 CBs. So squad management let them down. If you took the money spent on Fofana and Koulibaly off their net spend (because they didn't advance their squad) that is the same neighbourhood as us.

We are gonna have a similar issue with Kane. If he leaves for nothing we have a fairly epic hole in our squad that is going to be expensive to fill. We could splash £80m on Lautaro for example, which again is great on the net spend charts but doesn't improve our squad. I think the ability to hold onto a player like Kane is also a measure of being a "big club" and will be something to measure Levy against for sure.

 

[Dazzazzad]

You sneer at “they don’t want to win things”

Im sure Levy sacked a serial winner on the eve of a cup final? You can’t sneer at that surely!

Sorry, I don't buy that argument for a second. I was here. I saw how poor we were, how the team had given up on Jose, how he had seemingly given up.

If we want to criticize he should have been sacked earlier but was probably given more rope because we wanted to see what he could do in the final.

I had zero confidence we'd win with him - maybe a year prior I would have.

I said in another thread, there's a different universe where we stuck with Jose, lost the cup, and people moan that we should have sacked him to get a new manager bounce, fresh burst of freedom for the final rather than sticking with a ship that had already sunk.

 

[parj]

Get in a new owner and a new manager.

 

[Dazzazzad]

Give it up. ENIC have in the past 22 years proven beyond all reasonable doubt that they don't have a clue how to achieve on-field success. The move to the new stadium has only highlighted that fact. Whatever they might have done before, they are obviously incapable of getting the club to make the next step. Time is up. Clear off ENIC.

It depends on what you view as success. If going from a team that could call finishing 8th and getting close to qualifying for the UEFA cup a great season to a team that regularly finishes in the top 4, has competed for a couple titles, made a CL final, one won league cup, made it to 3 domestic finals and 7 semi finals is not success to you, fair enough.

To me that is on-field success - to be regularly competing in the toughest league in the world. Doesn't mean I don't want to win some silverware, but I don't define success by that metric only.

If I did then I'd have to say Wigan have been more successful than Spurs over ENIC's tenure.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

It depends on what you view as success. If going from a team that could call finishing 8th and getting close to qualifying for the UEFA cup a great season to a team that regularly finishes in the top 4, has competed for a couple titles, made a CL final, one won league cup, made it to 3 domestic finals and 7 semi finals is not success to you, fair enough.

To me that is on-field success - to be regularly competing in the toughest league in the world. Doesn't mean I don't want to win some silverware, but I don't define success by that metric only.

If I did then I'd have to say Wigan have been more successful than Spurs over ENIC's tenure.

Success is relative, we are certainly a lot bigger club than Wigan. They have without doubt down enough to stabilise us, we are going to be 3-8th or so each season and enough will be spent to keep that position.

We have little to no ambition to win cups or go for the league so it’s top 4 trophy each season as the goal. We don’t even have the goal to entertain as Levy showed hiring AVB, Nuno, Jose and to some extent Conte.

we have a brilliant stadium with an elite manager and we charge the highest prices around but the show we offer is one of the dullest. In a normal market we would be out of business but fans are loyal so that doesn’t happen.

the club has continuous failed to show a football plan.

Do we want to be entertainers? No

Do we want to push for a league title? No

Do we want to be ahead of the curve with scouting/coaching/tactics? No

So what are we. We appear to be a fur coat no knickers team. The trappings of success with great stadium, high prices and fancy manager but none of the players or underlying ideas to be a great one. We are a surface level successful club without actually being one. That comes down to football strategy, we don’t really have one, it’s all wing it. Their is no depth to Levy or the board when it comes to football, it’s all show.

 

[RuskyM]

You sneer at “they don’t want to win things”

Im sure Levy sacked a serial winner on the eve of a cup final? You can’t sneer at that surely!

Mate, we lost to a team who's manager was in prison. We weren't going to beat City.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

I disagree - I think we can compete with those clubs, it's more a question of if we will. I'm not going to automatically assume that we won't, but I think I need to see a couple more transfer windows before I would be confident that Levy has the balls for it. At this point in time, I don't think he does.

We spent more than both City and Liverpool in the summer. Obviously that is too small a window to make a full judgement, and the baselines of those squads are very different. But we also spent more than Arsenal in both net and gross I believe, so I think the spending power is there. I firmly believe that spend figures are pretty pointless in isolation though - we need to spend well and to do it on a continual basis.

A more interesting case is Chelsea. It looks like Boehly is selling off their future in order for success right now. That sort of approach is exactly what a lot of fans of any club would love to see, but it doesn't strike me as very smart. If they miss CL for a couple of seasons, where is their spending power going to be? Even if we think FFP is fairly toothless, it still exists and is going to get tighter over the next couple of years.

And a big part of their spend last summer was replacing Rudiger and Christensen for over £100m. That looks good if you are only concerned by a spend amount, but the reality is they had 2 CBs, spent £100m and ended up with 2 CBs. So squad management let them down. If you took the money spent on Fofana and Koulibaly off their net spend (because they didn't advance their squad) that is the same neighbourhood as us.

We are gonna have a similar issue with Kane. If he leaves for nothing we have a fairly epic hole in our squad that is going to be expensive to fill. We could splash £80m on Lautaro for example, which again is great on the net spend charts but doesn't improve our squad. I think the ability to hold onto a player like Kane is also a measure of being a "big club" and will be something to measure Levy against for sure.

Since 2018 Arsenal have spent 200m more net, now have a much stronger team than us and are still showing more urgency to spend, doing something we have never done, looking to build from a position of strength, could also be referred to as ambitious.

Sure since the stadium we have spent more than we usually do as our squad is in dire need but I see exactly the same patterns, largely last minute, who’s coming to end of contract to get cheap or free, what young rb can we collect next, there is little change as to this is the exact player we need, let’s spend what it takes and back the manager to win things.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

Let's break that down as for some reason you're still eager to defend ENIC, can't be for football success, maybe you have financial gain from them, I don't know, anyway there are lots of articles comparing last 5 years expenditure so let's use that to simplify things, not including our frugal January but including the famous 0 spend summer in preparation for the opening of the game changing stadium, I'm sure you'd like to forget about that one! But there's no reason why we couldn't have spent that summer with projected income if indeed the stadium was the great game changer we were promised, indeed our net spend was so low consistently before the stadium playing catch up meant some major investment was needed then new stadium or not!

1st Man Utd 340m spent more than us (70m more PA)

2nd Chelsea 330m more no Abramovich to blame for that! (65m more PA and not counting Jan!)

3rd Arsenal over 200m (40m more PA)

4th West Ham over 50m (10m more PA)

5th Us (with years of frugality and playing catch up after being out spent by small clubs for many years)

6th Newcastle 10m less (2m less PA 3 years with Ashley)

7th Aston Villa 50m less (10m less PA)

8th Wolves 50m less (10m less PA)

9th Liverpool 60m less (built majority of their squad whilst we were frugal)

10th Man City 100m less (built majority of their squad whilst we were frugal)

11th Fulham 120 less (25 less PA)

12th Leeds 140m less (30 less PA)

13th Notts Forest 150m less (30m less PA)

14th Everton 150m less (30m less PA)

15th Southampton 200m less (40m less PA)

Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton, Palace and Leicester all very low net spenders.

Above are all rough estimates, not even factoring wages etc for the bigger clubs. But our new game changing stadium that we waited 20 years for patiently whilst we won nothing now gets us spending 10m a year more than Wolves and Villa on players! I hear you, but you're comparing 5 years not 4! I get it, you want to be favorable with ENIC and say they were afraid to spend Summer 18 as the stadium was delayed blah blah So let's do what you want and include what Wolves have spent 20m this January, Villa 12m, which with your 4 years comparison still puts us the around same as Villa spending! and a bit better from Wolves.

But we don't need all these figures to tell us, we know that ENIC aren't ambitious to win things, they spend what they can get away with before the stadium and now it's the same, they spend what they can get away with after the stadium (obviously they could no longer have us at Palace levels of spending with the new stadium, not to mention our squads dire need as even then the BSoDL would revolt! you probably wouldn't though...)

The only thing your figures tell me is that net spend during that period of time is not directly correlated to sporting performances (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the opposite of the point you were trying to make).

Chelsea spent more than us, but have regressed from title contenders to currently sitting 10th in the league.
West Ham spent more than us, but they've dropped from competing for European qualification to a relegation scrap.
Wolves spent almost as much as us, but is currently in a relegation scrap.
Newcastle has spent less than us, but has progressed from mediocrity to 3rd in the league.
Brighton & Brentford are very low spenders, but have both gone from newly promoted Championship sides to top half of the PL.

 

[RuskyM]

I wonder if the "ins" are increasing because we brought a player in?

Personally I'm currently in because the seeming alternative (QSI) is worse imo. There's an element of being careful what you wish for - new isn't always going to be better. At least with ENIC I have some confidence in a degree of competence.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

The only thing your figures tell me is that net spend during that period of time is not directly correlated to sporting performances (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the opposite of the point you were trying to make).

Chelsea spent more than us, but have regressed from title contenders to currently sitting 10th in the league.
West Ham spent more than us, but they've dropped from competing for European qualification to a relegation scrap.
Wolves spent almost as much as us, but is currently in a relegation scrap.
Newcastle has spent less than us, but has progressed from mediocrity to 3rd in the league.
Brighton & Brentford are very low spenders, but have both gone from newly promoted Championship sides to top half of the PL.

Point I was trying to make is BSoDL spout 4th biggest spender now when in reality PL income had transformed all clubs where Aston Villa are matching our game changing stadium spending, in reality from swiss ramble reports we can afford to spend much more on players, change our wage structure further and really compete if we wanted too instead of this mirage. Also our squad is a mess right now, it’s in need of major investment due to years of neglect.

 

[degoose]

I wonder if the "ins" are increasing because we brought a player in?

No, i Voted In

Just splashing cash does not always make you a winner but it can help and who knows what the new owners might be like.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

Since 2018 Arsenal have spent 200m more net, now have a much stronger team than us and are still showing more urgency to spend, doing something we have never done, looking to build from a position of strength, could also be referred to as ambitious.

It would be more meaningful to compare Arsenal's spending and performances during the period when they had stadium debt to our current situation, instead of looking at what they are doing now that their stadium has been fully paid off. That comparison would paint a very different picture. For a fair comparison of the ambition of the two clubs, you'd need to revisit this years down the line.

Based on Transfermarkt data, our net spend on transfers during the 4 years leading up to the stadium opening was approx. £39m (£9.25m per year). Our net spend on transfers during the 4 years since the stadium opened is approx. £374m (£93.5m per year). This almost ten-told increase in net spend suggests that we have become more ambitious in the transfer market since the stadium opened.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

It would be more meaningful to compare Arsenal's spending and performances during the period when they had stadium debt to our current situation, instead of looking at what they are doing now that their stadium has been fully paid off. That comparison would paint a very different picture. For a fair comparison of the ambition of the two clubs, you'd need to revisit this years down the line.

Based on Transfermarkt data, our net spend on transfers during the 4 years leading up to the stadium opening was approx. £39m (£9.25m per year). Our net spend on transfers during the 4 years since the stadium opened is approx. £374m (£93.5m per year). This almost ten-told increase in net spend suggests that we have become more ambitious in the transfer market since the stadium opened.

Where there’s failure there’s always excuses and no different here, the ENIC apologists can always find one. Now it’s the long term loan we have to pay back at 30m a year? So 20 years before the stadium was because of it now the 30 years after too? So wait 50 years then judge them. ?

Don’t know why I bother in here, 20 years of failure with no end in sight yet still fans that will defend them to the hilt, reminds me of trumps comment I could shoot someone and they’d still vote me in…

 

[vegassd]

Since 2018 Arsenal have spent 200m more net, now have a much stronger team than us and are still showing more urgency to spend, doing something we have never done, looking to build from a position of strength, could also be referred to as ambitious.

Sure since the stadium we have spent more than we usually do as our squad is in dire need but I see exactly the same patterns, largely last minute, who’s coming to end of contract to get cheap or free, what young rb can we collect next, there is little change as to this is the exact player we need, let’s spend what it takes and back the manager to win things.

I agree that we need to keep spending, and I agree that we are still making questionable signings. But we're also making some very good signings. So I would say it's wrong to focus only on the negative stuff - we should look at both. Last summer was certainly not a case of "largely last minute" - it was the polar opposite.

Honestly, I don't care about Arsenal having a larger net spend since 2018. It doesn't matter. Net spend is a useless metric to be judging anything on, and the more anybody does it, the weaker their argument looks in my opinion.

Ignoring net spend, I think Arsenal a good example of what you can achieve with patience and consistency. If you polled Arsenal fans early last season about Arteta and Kroenke I think the vast majority would say they want them out. If we stick with Conte and back him more than just financially, I would expect we will be playing better over the next couple of seasons as well.

There are clearly questions about Conte hanging around, and questions about if Levy/Paratici are going to back him in all respects. Personally I'm skeptical about the backing, but have to admit that the last couple of windows have been more good than bad.

Don’t know why I bother in here, 20 years of failure with no end in sight yet still fans that will defend them to the hilt, reminds me of trumps comment I could shoot someone and they’d still vote me in…

This reminds me of the Three Lions song... "30 years of hurt" implies that England fans were in some sort of agony the day after winning the World Cup. It's all a bit mad!

I think that "20 years of failure" suggests we have been bouncing around the lower leagues, all the while spending endless billions on players. Nobody can deny the trophy haul in the last 20 years, but we also can't deny that the team has come pretty close to winning more. The owners don't kick the ball... all they can influence is getting a playing staff who can compete. Ours have - not as much as we would all like, but they definitely have.

FWIW, had we won the CL and a couple of FA Cups along the way, I wouldn't actually rate ENIC any higher than I do currently. I tend to judge them on the long-term stuff, not what happened in any individual match. If we got new owners today I think they would have to be judged by our on-field competitiveness, and I also think ENIC should be judged primarily on that from now as well. The boring stuff is done, they now need to get on with the fun stuff.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

I agree that we need to keep spending, and I agree that we are still making questionable signings. But we're also making some very good signings. So I would say it's wrong to focus only on the negative stuff - we should look at both. Last summer was certainly not a case of "largely last minute" - it was the polar opposite.

Honestly, I don't care about Arsenal having a larger net spend since 2018. It doesn't matter. Net spend is a useless metric to be judging anything on, and the more anybody does it, the weaker their argument looks in my opinion.

Ignoring net spend, I think Arsenal a good example of what you can achieve with patience and consistency. If you polled Arsenal fans early last season about Arteta and Kroenke I think the vast majority would say they want them out. If we stick with Conte and back him more than just financially, I would expect we will be playing better over the next couple of seasons as well.

There are clearly questions about Conte hanging around, and questions about if Levy/Paratici are going to back him in all respects. Personally I'm skeptical about the backing, but have to admit that the last couple of windows have been more good than bad.


This reminds me of the Three Lions song... "30 years of hurt" implies that England fans were in some sort of agony the day after winning the World Cup. It's all a bit mad!

I think that "20 years of failure" suggests we have been bouncing around the lower leagues, all the while spending endless billions on players. Nobody can deny the trophy haul in the last 20 years, but we also can't deny that the team has come pretty close to winning more. The owners don't kick the ball... all they can influence is getting a playing staff who can compete. Ours have - not as much as we would all like, but they definitely have.

FWIW, had we won the CL and a couple of FA Cups along the way, I wouldn't actually rate ENIC any higher than I do currently. I tend to judge them on the long-term stuff, not what happened in any individual match. If we got new owners today I think they would have to be judged by our on-field competitiveness, and I also think ENIC should be judged primarily on that from now as well. The boring stuff is done, they now need to get on with the fun stuff.

I would have viewed them completely differently had we backed Poch summer 18 or even Jan 19 and went for it even if we lost, it was about giving yourself the best chance, we had Sissoko and Winks in midfield and were always major underdogs. I was at a Spurs bar downtown DC for it, amazing craic before the match, I remember thinking when it kicked off just don't let us concede an early goal so I can enjoy the 1st half at least... Truth was we had too many weak links and were fortunate to get to the final, it's another what could have been with ENIC...