Dele Alli at Everton

[Primativ]

Best goal/ assist output in our squad after Son (14) and Kane (13) with 10 in 17 starts and 1 off the bench.

For a kid having a season broken up by injury and playing in a side that has been poor overall, not to mention constantly changing players around him in midfield and attack due to injury and suspension, thereby lacking cohesion, that is a pleasing output.

All Alli is in the side to do is score goals so yes I’m glad he is the third highest goal scorer, as he bloody well should be otherwise he’s be an even bigger waste of space. He’s a second striker and he scores goals, that’s great.

The question is do we need or can we afford to accommodate a second striker in the side who does nothing but score a few goals and turn over possession.

I think we can very reasonably say no. Son scores more than Alli does and also turns over possession frequently. Then I imagine we will also have Steve on the otherside scoring goals and creating. There just isn’t the space in the side for Alli.

We would be far better balanced just dropping him altogether. I am sure his goal output could be replaced fairly easily by Steve.

 

[JimmyG2]

All Alli is in the side to do is score goals so yes I’m glad he is the third highest goal scorer, as he bloody well should be otherwise he’s be an even bigger waste of space. He’s a second striker and he scores goals, that’s great.

The question is do we need or can we afford to accommodate a second striker in the side who does nothing but score a few goals and turn over possession.

I think we can very reasonably say no. Son scores more than Alli does and also turns over possession frequently. Then I imagine we will also have Steve on the otherside scoring goals and creating. There just isn’t the space in the side for Alli.

We would be far better balanced just dropping him altogether. I am sure his goal output could be replaced fairly easily by Steve.

Is 'Steve' your new bestie?
70 minutes
and he's the best thing
since the Mighty White.

I've cracked the code
Surnames for rejects
(Winks,Alli)
Christian name
for the new shiny addition.
.
Relax everyone
Primitiv has found someone he
likes and rates.

Looking forward
to updates
on his favourite colour,
breakfast cereal
and whatever inside snippets
you can bring us.

I'm very hopeful
but reserving judgement
until he cracks the 5 game barrier.
before I reject
the players that
got us to the CL 4years running
and the CL final.

If only Steve
had been playing
we'd have surely
won it.

Big welcome to Steven Bergwijn

I know
it's that random J
that throws you.

 

[buckley]

" Dele is rubbish " "dele is not good enough " and so on . I don't get it what I see is a committed player trying his hardest and for me a worthy starter .If Eriksen was as committed he would have left with honours instead of most supporters glad to see the back of him .

 

[BringBack_leGin]

All Alli is in the side to do is score goals so yes I’m glad he is the third highest goal scorer, as he bloody well should be otherwise he’s be an even bigger waste of space. He’s a second striker and he scores goals, that’s great.

The question is do we need or can we afford to accommodate a second striker in the side who does nothing but score a few goals and turn over possession.

I think we can very reasonably say no. Son scores more than Alli does and also turns over possession frequently. Then I imagine we will also have Steve on the otherside scoring goals and creating. There just isn’t the space in the side for Alli.

We would be far better balanced just dropping him altogether. I am sure his goal output could be replaced fairly easily by Steve.

Son and Dele signed at the same time, Son has played one more league game (150>149), and they have scored the same number of league goals (49). Dele has six more league assists (32>26).

If you really don’t rate Dele, I imagine you don’t rate Son much either.

 

[gregga]

Son and Dele signed at the same time, Son has played one more league game (150>149), and they have scored the same number of league goals (49). Dele has six more league assists (32>26).

If you really don’t rate Dele, I imagine you don’t rate Son much either.

These stats are however a little skewed by the one golden season Dele had a few years ago. Bar a slow start Son has been more consistent.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

These stats are however a little skewed by the one golden season Dele had a few years ago. Bar a slow start Son has been more consistent.

So Dele’s one phenomenal season skews his stats, but his one dreadful season output wise (last season) doesn’t?

You do know that his output has been better than 1 in 2 every season since he signed apart from last season, right?

149 matches. 4.5 seasons. It’s a big enough sample size.

 

[Donki]

Son and Dele signed at the same time, Son has played one more league game (150>149), and they have scored the same number of league goals (49). Dele has six more league assists (32>26).

If you really don’t rate Dele, I imagine you don’t rate Son much either.

I don't think anyone can doubt his worth but clearly his best position is behind the striker, not quite a ACM not quite a striker, very similar to VDV. While he is very much a Jose player physically and style wise with how direct he is, if Jose is wanting to play a 433, where do we put him? Agianst weaker teams where we can get away with playing a 2 man midfield, sure we can push him forward, but really how many games would that be?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I don't think anyone can doubt his worth but clearly his best position is behind the striker, not quite a ACM not quite a striker, very similar to VDV. While he is very much a Jose player physically and style wise with how direct he is, if Jose is wanting to play a 433, where do we put him? Agianst weaker teams where we can get away with playing a 2 man midfield, sure we can push him forward, but really how many games would that be?

I agree with all of this, I take no umbrage with the suggestion that either Dele needs to adapt (and he may well yet considering his age, Dembele was a centre forward in Holland at 23), or we may be outgrowing him. What irks me, immensely, is anybody suggesting he is anything other than a very good player who has done very well for us.

 

[Scot-Spur]

We would definitely regret selling him, Dele plays well when the team does! Unfortunately we have been pretty awful all season. Hopefully more positive in the weeks coming.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

" Dele is rubbish " "dele is not good enough " and so on . I don't get it what I see is a committed player trying his hardest and for me a worthy starter .If Eriksen was as committed he would have left with honours instead of most supporters glad to see the back of him .

Eriksen made no secret of his wish to move on in the summer. Until this season, I think it would be very harsh to say he was uncommitted. He was our most creative player for the last 5 seasons.

 

[Donki]

I agree with all of this, I take no umbrage with the suggestion that either Dele needs to adapt (and he may well yet considering his age, Dembele was a centre forward in Holland at 23), or we may be outgrowing him. What irks me, immensely, is anybody suggesting he is anything other than a very good player who has done very well for us.

I don't think there is any doubt that there was an issue with injury or Poch was too demanding of him last year, who knows but under Jose he has been growing back in confidence and seems fitter. But yes he must adapt or Jose must rethink he formation.

 

[cider spurs]

Maybe Alli doesn't fit a 4-3-3 formation??.

But what if Mourinho wants to change formation on any given day, you know, change things mid game to counteract a team that has maybe nullified our 4-3-3 formation.

Alli is easily good enough to be part of this squad, and I personally think that those who cannot see that we might not always play a 4-3-3, and require decent competition throughout the squad are missing all that he has done, and can continue to do in a Spurs shirt.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Son and Dele signed at the same time, Son has played one more league game (150>149), and they have scored the same number of league goals (49). Dele has six more league assists (32>26).

If you really don’t rate Dele, I imagine you don’t rate Son much either.

The biggest thing that separates Son and Dele is the fact that Son offers more to the team as a whole in terms of pace, movement, pressing, creating space, taking people on and occupying the opposition.

Son playing as a wide forward can beat players, he is quick, he makes quality runs and he scores goals. He fits in to the template of a 4-3-3 perfectly, which suits the other players in our squad too.

The team is like a jigsaw and the pieces need to fit together. Son fits perfectly into that jigsaw in the defined role of wing forward.

Alli does not fit into the template unless he seriously adjusts his game. He needs to either remodel himself as a wing forward (which he may struggle with as he's not particularly quick or good at running at players) or as part of a CM 3 (which means he needs to learn how to pass the ball better, retain possession, etc).

Even if we play 4-2-3-1 Alli causes us a problem because he has to play so high up the pitch to be effective that our formation becomes more of a 4-4-1-1 and leaves us short in midfield.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The biggest thing that separates Son and Dele is the fact that Son offers more to the team as a whole in terms of pace, movement, pressing, creating space, taking people on and occupying the opposition.

Son playing as a wide forward can beat players, he is quick, he makes quality runs and he scores goals. He fits in to the template of a 4-3-3 perfectly, which suits the other players in our squad too.

The team is like a jigsaw and the pieces need to fit together. Son fits perfectly into that jigsaw in the defined role of wing forward.

Alli does not fit into the template unless he seriously adjusts his game. He needs to either remodel himself as a wing forward (which he may struggle with as he's not particularly quick or good at running at players) or as part of a CM 3 (which means he needs to learn how to pass the ball better, retain possession, etc).

Even if we play 4-2-3-1 Alli causes us a problem because he has to play so high up the pitch to be effective that our formation becomes more of a 4-4-1-1 and leaves us short in midfield.

Definitely incorrect on the pressing, Dele presses well, pressing is as much about doing it intelligently as it is about charging around. Equally, I can’t have the suggestion Dele doesn’t move well, he does, almost all his goals are because of it. Yes, Son bring things that Dele cannot, but the reverse is also true. Clearances from our own box, headed and struck, headed goals obviously, creating chances with his back to goal...

Anyway, this isn’t about comparing them, I love them both, I have no wish to suggest Dele is better, or even as good, as Son; anybody inferring this is missing my point. My point is that, based on attacking output, if we accept that Son is a good player, we can’t them say that Dele is not.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Definitely incorrect on the pressing, Dele presses well, pressing is as much about doing it intelligently as it is about charging around. Equally, I can’t have the suggestion Dele doesn’t move well, he does, almost all his goals are because of it. Yes, Son bring things that Dele cannot, but the reverse is also true. Clearances from our own box, headed and struck, headed goals obviously, creating chances with his back to goal...

Anyway, this isn’t about comparing them, I love them both, I have no wish to suggest Dele is better, or even as good, as Son; anybody inferring this is missing my point. My point is that, based on attacking output, if we accept that Son is a good player, we can’t them say that Dele is not.

Dele can still be a good player, I do agree with that. The issue is he is just very limited positionally and therefore hinders the structure a team can play around him. To be fully effective, he basically has to play as a second striker, which not many teams play these days. The rest of our squad suits a 4-3-3 and he is not good enough to warrant the whole team being built around him.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

Imagine we're at a point in time where we're discussing two excellent footballers who play for us. Good times. Remember back to days when it was Acimovic and Oyvind Leonardson and be grateful for the times we have now.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

It's all about how we make the most of his talents - running off the ball, drive, finishing...and how we limit his weaknesses.

For me, we should only play him if we can do this. So, he should only play:
- With at least two midfielders deeper than him, preferably three
- If he has little responsibility for linking / continuity / play making, and there are at least two players in the side who can do this
- If he has no more than two players ahead of (i.e. structurally, in advanced positions of ) him, preferably one

If he has that, he can focus on:
- making a nuisance of himself in a press
- making runs into the box and scoring goals
- playing a killer ball while having deeper midfielders to mop up if (as is likely, with high risk balls) they don't come off

If you can make all the above work, and if he's in form, then he's an asset. Otherwise he can look quite poor.

So really, in a 4-3-3 he needs to part of the attacking three IMO, NOT the middle three - I think he looks poor there and it impacts the team badly.

In addition, if he's one of the 3 in attack, and Harry is there as well, it leaves only pacey player who can run at players...and I'm not totally comfortable with that.

Increasingly, I wonder if he and Harry really slot into the same side? As a counter argument, they tend to play off each other well. Quite hard to know at this point

 

[OPModric]

Son and Dele signed at the same time, Son has played one more league game (150>149), and they have scored the same number of league goals (49). Dele has six more league assists (32>26).

If you really don’t rate Dele, I imagine you don’t rate Son much either.

You keep coming back with these stats. Do you honestly think thats the only measure of a player?

And if you want to use stats, goals per minute is a much more relevant stat.

Alli has played 2700 more minutes in PL compared to Son (= 30 full games). I can also give you CL-stats.

Alli minute per goal in PL: 241
Alli minutes per goal in CL: 511

Son minute sper goal PL 187
Son minutes per goal in CL 190

*game against City not included

 

[punkisback]

It's all about how we make the most of his talents - running off the ball, drive, finishing...and how we limit his weaknesses.

For me, we should only play him if we can do this. So, he should only play:
- With at least two midfielders deeper than him, preferably three
- If he has little responsibility for linking / continuity / play making, and there are at least two players in the side who can do this
- If he has no more than two players ahead of (i.e. structurally, in advanced positions of ) him, preferably one

If he has that, he can focus on:
- making a nuisance of himself in a press
- making runs into the box and scoring goals
- playing a killer ball while having deeper midfielders to mop up if (as is likely, with high risk balls) they don't come off

If you can make all the above work, and if he's in form, then he's an asset. Otherwise he can look quite poor.

So really, in a 4-3-3 he needs to part of the attacking three IMO, NOT the middle three - I think he looks poor there and it impacts the team badly.

In addition, if he's one of the 3 in attack, and Harry is there as well, it leaves only pacey player who can run at players...and I'm not totally comfortable with that.

Increasingly, I wonder if he and Harry really slot into the same side? As a counter argument, they tend to play off each other well. Quite hard to know at this point

I've said it before, I don't mind if he was on the periphery in terms of scoring and assisting in an attacking sense if he could actually retain the ball, not dither on the ball and pass it well. If he did the simple things better he would earn a spot and then the team would improve and he would score more goals because we retain the ball better. However right now the flicks and bad lazy passes really don't help.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

You keep coming back with these stats. Do you honestly think thats the only measure of a player?

And if you want to use stats, goals per minute is a much more relevant stat.

Alli has played 2700 more minutes in PL compared to Son (= 30 full games). I can also give you CL-stats.

Alli minute per goal in PL: 241
Alli minutes per goal in CL: 511

Son minute sper goal PL 187
Son minutes per goal in CL 190

*game against City not included

No I don’t think it’s the only measure of a player you condescending so and so. I do, however, think that it’s worth taking note of when there’s such a strong, consistent sample size and people are making such mental claims about his ability. I’d say ‘I am judging him with my own eyes’, which I am by the way, I like most of what I see, but that would he hypocritical as I know how little credence I give to those saying they don’t like what they see with their eyes.

As for your minutes per goal stat, yes it shows that Son has been more productive, but I never went so deep as to make it necessary for you to prove that, my argument only went as far as ‘Son has good output, so does Dele’. Even if Dele had played every minute of every match my argument wouldn’t be diluted as it would still be an output of better than 1 in 2 over a long period. Son is also clearly a more forward player than Dele, who has actually played in midfield for a significant portion of his Spurs career whereas Son has played as centre forward for vast stretches of time when Kane is out, so how would you weigh different matches in different positions into your calculations? As for the CL starts, I only neglect them compared to PL as PL offers the closest thing we have to a level playing field over that period with us having played against almost the same opposition many times across the time sample, something the CL can’t offer, but you knew this as you’re not thick.

I’ve not said Dele is as good as Son, I’ve not even said he’s more productive, and I’ve never said that stats are the only measure, but you cannot produce what Dele has unless you are a good player, that is my one and only point. If you can find me one player who has produced similarly in this league over such a period who cannot be described as good I will be astounded.