Chairman racists?

[Legend10]

In my last job I was directly managing a staff of over 90, the staff wern't all, but were predominantly white British.

When we were expanding and looking at taking on more staff I was called to our HR department and was told directly that all new staff couldn't be white British. When I challenged this on the basis of wanting to recruit the most suitable candidates I was firmly told that I had no option and that the quality of the candidates was to be of secondary concern to their colour & nationality.

I then had to go through an interview process where white British candidates with good experience & qualifications were put through an interview for a job that I was forbidden from giving them, I had been directly told to discriminate against them.

All of the staff that I recruited in that particular drive were non white British.

To me this is was as crazy as this situation with black managers, people should be given jobs on their merit and it should be irrelevant whether they are white, black, yellow or green with sky blue spots.

The attitude that I was faced with and the attitude towards appointing black managers does absolutely nothing for beating down the evil that is racism. In fact it is more likely to have the opposite effect, this do gooder shit is actually creating problems and not relieving any.

 

[Mullers]

You genuinly believe that a lack of Black top flight managers is in some way racially motivated ?????

Or is your argument, a lack of oppurtunity's for Black managers at a lower level, and hence unable to prove thier management skills??

Would the likes of Frank Rykard (if available) not be offered a Prem' job ???

The likes of Frank Rijkaard would easily get a job because he has proved himself and doesn't represent a risk.There have been several white players with little or no managerial experience but they've managed to get jobs in the prem or at championship level. So yeah there is an argument for saying black managers aren't being given an opportunity. Its some thing to at least examine and discuss rather than dismissing the whole thing as pc or some other equally flippant reply.

 

[Mullers]

In my last job I was directly managing a staff of over 90, the staff wern't all, but were predominantly white British.

When we were expanding and looking at taking on more staff I was called to our HR department and was told directly that all new staff couldn't be white British. When I challenged this on the basis of wanting to recruit the most suitable candidates I was firmly told that I had no option and that the quality of the candidates was to be of secondary concern to their colour & nationality.

I then had to go through an interview process where white British candidates with good experience & qualifications were put through an interview for a job that I was forbidden from giving them, I had been directly told to discriminate against them.

well thats against the law isn't it? To discriminate? Did you report them or do anything about it? or did you just accept the practise of discrimination without seeking any explanation? If you did just accept it aren't you partly responsible?

To me this is was as crazy as this situation with black managers, people should be given jobs on their merit and it should be irrelevant whether they are white, black, yellow or green with sky blue spots.

I agree but the reality is we don't live in a non racist society a person can have all the qualifications for a job and still not get it simply because of their color.:razz:

 

[SelbYido]

You genuinly believe that a lack of Black top flight managers is in some way racially motivated ?????

Or is your argument, a lack of oppurtunity's for Black managers at a lower level, and hence unable to prove thier management skills??

Would the likes of Frank Rykard (if available) not be offered a Prem' job ???

You have to admit though, Rijkaard is the exception rather than the rule. I've been scouring my (admittedly crap) memory for black managers in Europe who have occupied top level (ie. teams in their country's top division) posts & so far I've come up with Frank Rijkaard, Jean Tigana & Ruud Gullit. There is a manager in Ligue 1 who's black but his name escapes me... There may be more but as I said - rubbish memory.

Still, compared to the number of black players in those leagues there are disproportionately few who graduate to become managers. Not necessarily racism but why do you think that is? Its hard to say without knowing how many black managers applied for coaching courses - obviously if there are few qualified black coaches then it follows that there will be few black managers. But then if so, why are so few black players going for coaching courses when they retire from playing? Are they being discouraged, denied opportunities or is it just coincidence?

Basically, I think its too easy just to say either "chairmen are racists" or "black people don't make good coaches" as the issue is far more complicated than that.

Sorry, I know you were replying to Mullers but when you've something to say...

 

[Houdini]

Who gives a fuck what color anyone is, if they can do the job required !
As for having to play for a 'black' manager, there are a few people who would have problems working under or taking orders and direction from them!
I wonder would they show prejudice if it was a non white doctor who was about to save their life or someone close to them?

 

[Mullers]

You have to admit though, Rijkaard is the exception rather than the rule. I've been scouring my (admittedly crap) memory for black managers in Europe who have occupied top level (ie. teams in their country's top division) posts & so far I've come up with Frank Rijkaard, Jean Tigana & Ruud Gullit. There is a manager in Ligue 1 who's black but his name escapes me... There may be more but as I said - rubbish memory.

Still, compared to the number of black players in those leagues there are disproportionately few who graduate to become managers. Not necessarily racism but why do you think that is? Its hard to say without knowing how many black managers applied for coaching courses - obviously if there are few qualified black coaches then it follows that there will be few black managers. But then if so, why are so few black players going for coaching courses when they retire from playing? Are they being discouraged, denied opportunities or is it just coincidence?

Basically, I think its too easy just to say either "chairmen are racists" or "black people don't make good coaches" as the issue is far more complicated than that.

Sorry, I know you were replying to Mullers but when you've something to say...

In the first post the whole telegraph article is not posted just a small part of it is.which says chairman and owners risk being called a bunch of racist if they dont start taking action to redress the balance. Even I was initially pissed off and wanting to know who was saying that it was misleading.

when you read the whole article and look into it more deeply, there is no doubt there is definitely a case to answer. Not all racism is blatant sometimes its subtle, so subtle sometimes its almost invisible. Sometimes people arent aware that they are being racist.

I just want to quote a small piece of the transcript I posted again.

Two apparently forward-thinking Chairman I spoke to referred to their colored players with whom they have no problem.

I remember talking to a guy from New Zealand in the pub once when we overheard someone saying colored. He was like " do people still say colored over here? Thats so old fashioned why don't they just say black?"

I don't usually jump down anyones throat for saying colored as many don't mean any harm when they say it, but its kind of a instant indicator that the person is either of the older generation and not up to speed with todays etiquette or they haven't had much contact with black people and or they are trying hard not to offend so they see colored as a safe word to use.

Not many people like to be called racist so when they are accused they will usually bend over backwards to show that they are not. The reality is everyone is racist to some degree even if they don't believe in practicing racism I believe it exists within us all consciously and or subconsciously. If someone wants to claim they have no racism in them what so ever then thats a perfect person.

All the managers you mentioned were world class players well known in the football industry, but how about those who were less illustrious players? Are they being given a chance? It doesnt appear so. Garath southgate, Roy Keane those are just a few players given a chance they have no previous managerial experience, do they even have coaching badges. Mourhino just started off as a translator if he was black would he be given a chance to manage? Its something to think about.

There isn't a non racist industry out there, again I'll quote a small part of the transcript I posted.

Institutional racism may be subconscious, may be unintended but it's still deeply damaging

I think that sums it up nicely.

Its not about chairman and owners being blatant racists belonging to the BNP its about subtle and subconsious racism, which is something that exists everwhere in society.

 

[paul_1979yid]

My local pie and mash has all white people working there. Racist??
There are three pubs near to me and everyone who works there is white. Racist?? See, its easy to make this a trivial issue.

you guys think there couldn't possibly be the tiniest bit of racism involved here. If thats true football must be a perfect industry, no racist chairman, or racist hierarchy. fantastic

If there is a TINY bit of racism here then you have to admit there must be a TINY bit of racism in your pie and mash shop and my local Curry House????
Whats the difference? Surely its all about who is best for the job? If a white bloke cooked the best curry around would the Raj Gate employ him????
PROB YES!!
Cant even believe this is being discussed

 

[Legend10]

well thats against the law isn't it? To discriminate? Did you report them or do anything about it? or did you just accept the practise of discrimination without seeking any explanation? If you did just accept it aren't you partly responsible?


I agree but the reality is we don't live in a non racist society a person can have all the qualifications for a job and still not get it simply because of their color.:razz:

In this situation I believe it isn't against the law as our percentages of non white british staff wern't high enough and I believe that we were trying to balance our numbers to avoid possible investigation.

 

[dontcallme]

I always find the whole racism stuff an interesting subject. I travelled a fair amount and lived in London with international flatmates and I think it's always important to remember we are one of the most tolerant countries in the world and have moved on in a huge way since the 70s regarding racism in football.

When Ruud Gullit and Tigana were managing in the prem little deal was made of the colour of their skin. They seemed to be judged completely on the job they were doing. Once again after all the arguments about black players back in the 70s questionning whether they were physical enough, then whether they had the right mentality (all nonsense of course) in that respect we should be happy that we have made better progress than almost any other country.

If a Prem team hired Paul Ince now after the job he has done at Macclesfield and MK Dons would there be major debates about whether he is intelligent enough or have the right mentality to be a manager, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

This of course doesn't answer why there are so few black managers especially considering the amount of black players there are nowadays, for that i really don't know but don't believe it's a case of direct racism. Maybe it's a case of if we get a couple of black managers being successful in the Premier League then more black players will pursuit management.

 

[bubble07]

there doesn't seem to be many black goalkeepers either, or black referees or black linesman

 

[Rocksuperstar]

there doesn't seem to be many black goalkeepers either, or black referees or black linesman

I guess, if it's a percentage thing, then out of the... how many, say 30 prem refs, Uriah Rennie probably makes up that 3.3% required to appease FIFA :shrug: who knows...

good point though.

 

[nidge]

Mourhino just started off as a translator if he was black would he be given a chance to manage? Its something to think about.

Mourhino had his coaching badges long before he became a translator for Sir Bobby Robson. He started of as a coach at Estrela and moved to his home town club that I can't remember the name of. He then worked as a translator for Robson at Benfica, Porto and the Barca but, under Lous van Gaal he was given a more active role in coaching and eventually coached the Barca B side. He then went to coach a couple of Portugese sides and obviously then had a massively successful period in charge of Porto winning CL and Uefa Cup and then getting the Chelsea job.

That's hardly the career of someone who knew nothing about football getting a chance just because he was white.

 

[Mullers]

If there is a TINY bit of racism here then you have to admit there must be a TINY bit of racism in your pie and mash shop and my local Curry House????
Whats the difference? Surely its all about who is best for the job? If a white bloke cooked the best curry around would the Raj Gate employ him????
PROB YES!!
Cant even believe this is being discussed

There is racism EVERWHERE thats the point, why are chairman and owners somehow a perfect breed who have no racism what so ever. Yes in an ideal world it is about who is best for the job but we don't live in an ideal world hence the need for laws on race and discrimination.

 

[Mullers]

In this situation I believe it isn't against the law as our percentages of non white british staff wern't high enough and I believe that we were trying to balance our numbers to avoid possible investigation.

It sounds like your bosses seem guilty about their previous actions and are trying to atone for it. Is it possible that they have actually been discriminating against non whites previously.

The following is from the Equality and Human Rights commission website

Employment

As well as extending protection against discrimination to employees, the Act also extends to partnerships.

If discrimination is on grounds of colour or nationality, it is unlawful to discriminate in relation to a position as a partner in a firm, provided the firm consists of six or more partners. However, the prohibition against discrimination on grounds of race or ethnic or national origin extends to firms with fewer than six partners.

The Act also applies to members of trade unions (or those seeking membership of trade unions) and applies to authorities or bodies which issue authorisations or qualifications for engagement in professions and trades. In addition, individuals seeking or undergoing training for vocational purposes are also covered. Similarly, employment agencies cannot discriminate against individuals that receive their services.

The Secretary of State must not also discriminate in the provision of facilities of services under Section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973. This relates to the Manpower Services Commission.

All aspects of employment, including recruitment, selection, promotion, transfer, training, pay and benefits, redundancy, dismissal and terms and conditions of work are protected.

For exceptions, see When is racial discrimination lawful?

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...doesracialdiscriminationoccur.aspx#Employment

Exceptions in employment

Work that is for the purpose of a private household where the discrimination is on the grounds of colour or nationality. However, any discrimination on grounds of race or ethnic or national origins is prohibited for work of this purpose.

Discrimination in the employment context on the grounds of race or ethnic or national origins is permissible where being of a particular race or ethnic or national origin is a genuine and determining occupational requirement, and it is proportionate to apply that requirement in a particular case. Discrimination on the grounds of colour and nationality is also permissible where being of a particular racial group is a genuine occupational qualification for the job. The circumstances in which this would apply are identified in the Act.

Where discrimination is on the grounds of colour or nationality and where the employee is employed wholly outside Great Britain, the provisions of the Act do not apply.

Where discrimination is on grounds of race or ethnic or national origin and the employee is wholly employed abroad. However, the employee can claim protection under the Act if the employer has a place of business at an establishment in Great Britain, and the employee is ordinarily resident in Great Britain at the time when he applies or is offered the employment or at any time during the course of the employment.
Seamen recruited from outside Great Britain cannot be discriminated against unless the discrimination is on grounds of nationality and involves pay.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...ages/Whenmightracedescriminationbelawful.aspx

It looks to me like your employers are breaking the law.

 

[Mullers]

Mourhino had his coaching badges long before he became a translator for Sir Bobby Robson. He started of as a coach at Estrela and moved to his home town club that I can't remember the name of. He then worked as a translator for Robson at Benfica, Porto and the Barca but, under Lous van Gaal he was given a more active role in coaching and eventually coached the Barca B side. He then went to coach a couple of Portugese sides and obviously then had a massively successful period in charge of Porto winning CL and Uefa Cup and then getting the Chelsea job.

That's hardly the career of someone who knew nothing about football getting a chance just because he was white.

My question is would have been given the same opportunity if he was black?

José Mourinho was born in Setúbal to Félix Mourinho, a former Portuguese football goalkeeper and club football manager. His family has a strong footballing tradition with his father's career as a goalkeeper, and his godfather being chairman of Vitória de Setúbal football club. He had a clear aptitude for managing and organising and from an early age he prepared match reports and dossiers for his father's teams.

His entry into the ISEF - Instituto Superior de Educação Física (a physical education school at Lisbon which is today's Faculdade de Motricidade Humana of the Technical University of Lisbon), was delayed by an altercation with his mathematics teacher during the final year of his secondary education. He left the school but returned soon after to pass the mathematics examination and complete 12th grade. During the delay, his mother, who wanted him to study management instead of physical education, enrolled him in a private management school. However, Mourinho did not see a future there and dropped out after the first day. He joined his father in Vila do Conde, where his father, Félix Mourinho, was the head coach of Rio Ave F.C.. The following year Mourinho enrolled in the ISEF, and five years later was awarded a degree in physical education, specialising in sports methodology.

Career

Mourinho completed a UEFA football coach course in Scotland before returning to Portugal to work as a high school coach.[3]

Mourinho's short playing career consisted of a few generally unsuccessful spells at small and medium sized Portuguese clubs during the years he was studying. He joined the youth team of Belenenses, and then played for Rio Ave F.C.. He later returned to Lisbon's Belenenses. Without success as a player, he ended his career playing for small amateur teams such as Sesimbra and Comércio e Indústria.

Leaving his job as a school coach, Mourinho was taken on in a backroom job at Estrela da Amadora by invitation of the then head coach Manuel Fernandes. He returned to his hometown to assist Vitória de Setúbal's staff in the early 1990s. Later, Mourinho earned the nickname Tradutor (translator), when he worked with Sir Bobby Robson as his translator (technically his interpreter) at both Sporting and then FC Porto.

He followed Robson to Barcelona in 1996, where he learned Catalan. When Robson was fired from Barcelona and consequently left for PSV, Mourinho stayed at the Nou Camp and worked with Robson's successor, Dutchman Louis van Gaal. Over time Mourinho began to participate actively in coaching sessions and management meetings and went on to coach FC Barcelona B.

Sport Lisboa e Benfica and União de Leiria

His chance of becoming a manager finally arrived in September 2000 when he moved up from his role as assistant coach at Lisbon side Benfica to replace manager Jupp Heynckes after the fourth week of the Portuguese Liga. Mourinho picked Carlos Mozer, a retired but still highly respected Benfica defender, to be his assistant.

However, while the duo was popular, especially after a 3–0 win against fierce rivals Sporting, Benfica's election turned against club president João Vale e Azevedo, and the newly-elected Manuel Vilarinho already had another coach waiting on the wings, Toni – a legend for Benfica's fans. Although Vilarinho had no intention of firing him immediately, Mourinho decided to ask for an extension to his contract in the middle of the season, immediately after the win over Sporting. When the president refused, Mourinho quit Benfica (after just nine league games in charge) on 5 December 2000. Vilarinho later said in an interview that if Mourinho had won the championship, he would have extended his contract.

Mourinho quickly found a new managerial post in January 2001 at unfashionable mid-tablers União de Leiria, whom he took to their highest-ever league finish of 5th place (incidentally, finishing just above Benfica).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Mourinho#Early_years
Mourinhio didnt have the greatest playing career did he? At the moment it seems that you have a former world class or at very best a former international player to be given a chance. Mourhino fortunately had good contacts and he was able to get a chance and has proved to be an excellent manager.

 

[Mullers]

the following quotes are again from the transcript link

COLIN KING:
Get a partner. Get one ball between two. As you approach your partner. I'll will show you what I want you to do. Ready. First of all I'm going to say take and I'll take the ball...

PETER MARSHALL:
Colin king is a football coach with all the FA's qualifications but no job. So turning a negative into a positive, he's got a PhD out of it. The academic title, Institutional Racism in Football Coaching, Management and Administration.

KING:
They've been quite awful actually, I mean at 17 years of age I tried to get into a professional club and was told that niggers couldn't be in the game and so I went down the coaching route and I got all the qualifications. I wrote to a lot of clubs asking for coaching jobs, nobody ever responded. I had a lot of racist experiences when I went on coaching courses. I was called a black Hitler, I had a chip on my shoulder, I was difficult, I was uppity.

PETER MARSHALL:
John Barnes is a football idol, a superstar, one of the most talented ever to play for England. He had one brief spell as a football manager, that was four years ago, since then, nothing.

JOHN BARNES:
I have tried for about four or five jobs, I have applied for jobs and I've also had Graham Taylor and Terry Venables who I've worked with, and who of course you would think if they phoned clubs up..

MARSHALL:
England Managers.

BARNES:
...England Managers, to recommend me even for an interview, not necessarily to be given the job. And that has not brought anything, not even, not even an interview.

MARSHALL:
Do you think you might be aiming too high?

BARNES:
Well, if I'm aiming for a second division club, the only other alternative is either third division club or the conference. I know Luther Blisset, I know so many other England internationals have been turned down from Third Division clubs so, I don't know how much lower we can go. Maybe we should go into the Sunday league, possibly?

MARSHALL:
It's a mystery, isn't it this?

BARNES:
It's not much of a mystery, no.

No racism involved at all in all this? Don't be naive.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3479751.stm

 

[paul_1979yid]

There is racism EVERWHERE thats the point, why are chairman and owners somehow a perfect breed who have no racism what so ever. Yes in an ideal world it is about who is best for the job but we don't live in an ideal world hence the need for laws on race and discrimination.

And thats why the world/this country has gone to rat shit. How does racism exist EVERYWHERE??

You know that do you????:bs:

 

[Mullers]

And thats why the world/this country has gone to rat shit. How does racism exist EVERYWHERE??

You know that do you????:bs:

Is any human being perfect? Is there any person on the planet where racism doesn't even exist in their subconscious? I don't believe so.

 

[Legend10]

It sounds like your bosses seem guilty about their previous actions and are trying to atone for it. Is it possible that they have actually been discriminating against non whites previously.

The following is from the Equality and Human Rights commission website


Not at all,

Discrimination wouldn't even enter their heads, but because we had a sales force of 90+ of which (if memory serves me correctly) only 2 were non white brits they were advised by the companies HR department that they needed to recruit from other groups rather than recruit who would be best for the job.

 

[Destroyer]

In my opinion racism doesnt really exist. Youve either got it or you havent regardless of what colour you are. Put it like this, if Lewis Hamilton was 'White' would he still be driving in F1 ?? You either cut the mustard or you dont. You cant go round giving jobs out just because you are black or white, its whether your good enough - look all over the place, you cant prejudice for colour discrimination, - If Arsene Wenger had been 'Black' he'd still of got the job.