The ousting of Daniel (COYS)

vegassd · Sep 7, 2023

longtimespur said:
I wouldn't mind the emboldened if we won trophies whilst they do so.
ATM it seems more like that is the only target.

I know what you mean. Our trophy count is woeful, and for me that's partly down to how slow the ENIC project has been. It has meant we didn't get to strike before the oil money started coming into play. A bit of bad luck maybe, but a lot due to the protective/cautious approach.

If we are successful on the pitch then ENIC are going to make a wedge no matter what. There's an alternate universe where they could have spent money on players rather than infrastructure, rode the wave of the PL money machine, and then sold at a big profit whilst leaving us without the facilities we now have. And there's obviously no guarantee of trophies in that universe either.

Levy doesn't kick the ball or pick the first XI, so I think his job (on the footballing side) is to give us the tools to compete. We have done that in periods over the last 15 years, so I would always argue that footballing success is at least part of their ambition. Like many, I hope that we appoint people better suited to running the football side, but I think it's wide of the mark to say ENIC have zero sporting ambition. In my opinion anyway.

rossdapep · Sep 7, 2023

Led's Zeppelin said:
I also think we have a very weak board...good at some things but not nearly enough.

And there are reasons why we have a weak board, and this is my biggest single criticism of DL.

As some here know, and I've said before, I know him and have worked with him, though never employed by him. I think I know his strengths and weaknesses, and one of them is that he finds it very difficult to place his wholehearted trust in people. So once someone has earned his trust he generally stays very loyal to them, and this, not deliberately but very effectively and sadly, can create a barrier to new people and to new ideas. (And of course there are people who are unscrupulous enough to set out to earn trust for their own purposes!)

He is not, as many believe sincerely and wholeheartedly, mean and scared to spend money. He is, however, wary of people peddling their own agenda and of course in football there is no shortage of this sort of person. And he has been stung before and doesn't like it.

I wish he would employ more people who know how to run a business and who have a genuine passion for Spurs, and who he trusts enough to allow to take important decisions. But again sadly, his track record of trying to employ such people, going way back to people like David Buchler, has not been blessed with success, and he retrenches at each unsuccessful experiment.

Which is why I so wholeheartedly welcome Ange Postecoglou's appointment. It is so crucially important for a brave and slightly unexpected and in some quarters mistrusted appointment to be successful.

Would it be right in saying that he sees a lot of 'outside players' as a risk so falls back on those around him for opinion?

Also, it does sound like he has people around him who sway him to decide against something. For example, a coach tells him that spending money on X player will be a great decision and he seems okay with that, only for the around him to throw doubts into his mind causing him to have a change of heart.

ukdy · Sep 7, 2023

alfie103 said:
A very good post. I don't have a problem with Levy making mistakes as everyone does and some decisions are very difficult. My problem with Levy is the footballing success isn't the main priority at Tottenham, the financial success of ENIC is. Therefore, all other decisions are based on this and ENIC's interests, not Tottenham's.

Agree mate. I’ll also add that mistakes happen, you can’t predict the future. But those who ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them!!

Led's Zeppelin · Sep 7, 2023

rossdapep said:
Would it be right in saying that he sees a lot of 'outside players' as a risk so falls back on those around him for opinion?

Also, it does sound like he has people around him who sway him to decide against something. For example, a coach tells him that spending money on X player will be a great decision and he seems okay with that, only for the around him to throw doubts into his mind causing him to have a change of heart.

Purely my opinion, obviously:

I think many of the people around him don’t have the courage to challenge him. So for their own protection they tell him what they believe he wants to hear. They tend to amplify weaknesses rather than remedy them.

And he doesn’t have the will to hire people who will consistently tell him when he’s wrong.

So the small, tight board has largely become conservative and complacent.

He is stubborn and finds it hard to question his own judgement.

He is very good at some things but very bad at others.

I’ve been told by @Albertbarich that you either want him out or you don’t, but I honestly believe that kind of binary outlook is overly simplistic and isn't helpful. I think his mistakes have been very damaging to our club. If there were a ready market in successful owners and chairs of PL clubs, I swap him out for one of them in a heartbeat. But of course there are far more owners of football clubs who fail than succeed so I can’t simply say that I want him in or out. It makes no sense.

I want him to improve or I want a new owner who I can be much more confident about bringing us football success. Who wouldn’t?

But I don’t believe he’s poison. Neither do I believe he’s the very best we can possibly do. But I’m wary of forcing him out (if it were possible) because there are worse devils lurking out there that we don’t know, so until I know who is most likely to replace him and/or ENIC, I reserve judgement.

Hoopspur · Sep 7, 2023

What has happened in the past is one thing but what is happening now totally different. We currently have a team we are competing with that is sweeping all before them. Challenging for 4 trophies and being upset if they only win 3. It’s a distorted playing field and we are not on the top side of the slope. At the moment it’s going to get even more difficult. Today’s (crap) snippet suggested Ferguson to City - wtf?! What chance have we got of competing with that? Even the gooners will not be able to do that despite splashing out £100m on a player. Can’t see how Spurs are going to be able to challenge. Probably the not right place to post this.

Depressed, of North London

Albertbarich · Sep 7, 2023

Led's Zeppelin said:
Purely my opinion, obviously:

I think many of the people around him don’t have the courage to challenge him. So for their own protection they tell him what they believe he wants to hear. They tend to amplify weaknesses rather than remedy them.

And he doesn’t have the will to hire people who will consistently tell him when he’s wrong.

So the small, tight board has largely become conservative and complacent.

He is stubborn and finds it hard to question his own judgement.

He is very good at some things but very bad at others.

I’ve been told by @Albertbarich that you either want him out or you don’t, but I honestly believe that kind of binary outlook is overly simplistic and isn't helpful. I think his mistakes have been very damaging to our club. If there were a ready market in successful owners and chairs of PL clubs, I swap him out for one of them in a heartbeat. But of course there are far more owners of football clubs who fail than succeed so I can’t simply say that I want him. It makes no sense.

I want him to improve or I want a new owner who I can be much more confident about bringing us football success. Who wouldn’t?

But I don’t believe he’s poison. Neither do I believe he’s the very best we can possibly do. But I’m wary of forcing him out (if it were possible) because there are worse devils lurking out there that we don’t know, so until I know who is most likely to replace him and/or ENIC, I reserve judgement.

I was being flippant earlier but I'll expand now.
I was trying to say that both sides of this debate are somewhat bias but I feel that there is a habit for people to come in and say something similar to what you did feeling like they have a balance that those of us firm outters don't and I object to that as I have given him credit for loads as have others.
At the end of the day he is likely going nowhere so it's a pointless debate but when I add everything up , good and bad there is no way I'd choose to have him running our club going forward.
To me at least he has blown all trust, loyalty and forgiveness I may have had at one time. But I do love Ange which allows me to actually enjoy supporting the club right now. And that's a massive change from recent years

bomberH · Sep 12, 2023

Sorry if already posted but this did make me laugh. From Mr Gold:

Ben Foster:

One of the lads, Danny Rose, was at Tottenham and Daniel Levy is so famously known for being an absolute businessman, brutal, ruthless businessman. Apparently their bonus schedule, their bonus payments were almost impossible to achieve, almost impossible," claimed the goalkeeper.

"To actually get paid a bonus, you would only get it for beating one of the big boys, one of the top six teams. So you're talking a Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, and apparently, I swear on my life, this is what he said to me, you've got to beat them by two clear goals as well. [1-0] it's not enough mate, you ain't getting that bonus. Winning games, they expect you to win games as Tottenham manager, at Tottenham apparently.

"To get the bonus you have to obliterate your opponent. You have to beat Man City 2-0, 3-0 to get that bonus payment which is bonkers. I was saying 'Rosey, there's no chance, that's impossible'.

"He was just saying 'I know Fozzy, I know'. He said there was one time they were winning 2-0 and in the last minute they conceded a goal and everyone was looking at each thinking 'OK come on lads we've missed out on the bonus', and they've still won the big game."

Trix · Sep 12, 2023

bomberH said:
Sorry if already posted but this did make me laugh. From Mr Gold:

Ben Foster:

One of the lads, Danny Rose, was at Tottenham and Daniel Levy is so famously known for being an absolute businessman, brutal, ruthless businessman. Apparently their bonus schedule, their bonus payments were almost impossible to achieve, almost impossible," claimed the goalkeeper.

"To actually get paid a bonus, you would only get it for beating one of the big boys, one of the top six teams. So you're talking a Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, and apparently, I swear on my life, this is what he said to me, you've got to beat them by two clear goals as well. [1-0] it's not enough mate, you ain't getting that bonus. Winning games, they expect you to win games as Tottenham manager, at Tottenham apparently.

"To get the bonus you have to obliterate your opponent. You have to beat Man City 2-0, 3-0 to get that bonus payment which is bonkers. I was saying 'Rosey, there's no chance, that's impossible'.

"He was just saying 'I know Fozzy, I know'. He said there was one time they were winning 2-0 and in the last minute they conceded a goal and everyone was looking at each thinking 'OK come on lads we've missed out on the bonus', and they've still won the big game."

Lol. Instead of searching up players he hadn't heard of, perhaps he should have been googling new agencies to represent him.

alfie103 · Sep 12, 2023

bomberH said:
Sorry if already posted but this did make me laugh. From Mr Gold:

Ben Foster:

One of the lads, Danny Rose, was at Tottenham and Daniel Levy is so famously known for being an absolute businessman, brutal, ruthless businessman. Apparently their bonus schedule, their bonus payments were almost impossible to achieve, almost impossible," claimed the goalkeeper.

"To actually get paid a bonus, you would only get it for beating one of the big boys, one of the top six teams. So you're talking a Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, and apparently, I swear on my life, this is what he said to me, you've got to beat them by two clear goals as well. [1-0] it's not enough mate, you ain't getting that bonus. Winning games, they expect you to win games as Tottenham manager, at Tottenham apparently.

"To get the bonus you have to obliterate your opponent. You have to beat Man City 2-0, 3-0 to get that bonus payment which is bonkers. I was saying 'Rosey, there's no chance, that's impossible'.

"He was just saying 'I know Fozzy, I know'. He said there was one time they were winning 2-0 and in the last minute they conceded a goal and everyone was looking at each thinking 'OK come on lads we've missed out on the bonus', and they've still won the big game."

Well that shows what the player's priorities were.

rossdapep · Sep 12, 2023

bomberH said:
Sorry if already posted but this did make me laugh. From Mr Gold:

Ben Foster:

One of the lads, Danny Rose, was at Tottenham and Daniel Levy is so famously known for being an absolute businessman, brutal, ruthless businessman. Apparently their bonus schedule, their bonus payments were almost impossible to achieve, almost impossible," claimed the goalkeeper.

"To actually get paid a bonus, you would only get it for beating one of the big boys, one of the top six teams. So you're talking a Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, and apparently, I swear on my life, this is what he said to me, you've got to beat them by two clear goals as well. [1-0] it's not enough mate, you ain't getting that bonus. Winning games, they expect you to win games as Tottenham manager, at Tottenham apparently.

"To get the bonus you have to obliterate your opponent. You have to beat Man City 2-0, 3-0 to get that bonus payment which is bonkers. I was saying 'Rosey, there's no chance, that's impossible'.

"He was just saying 'I know Fozzy, I know'. He said there was one time they were winning 2-0 and in the last minute they conceded a goal and everyone was looking at each thinking 'OK come on lads we've missed out on the bonus', and they've still won the big game."

If it wasn't Levy you would say that this is actually a great way to make players more ambitious.

Now, the issue is we appointed 3 coaches who don't go by that mantra of smashing teams but I certainly think players get bonuses FAR TOO EASILY.

I heard one player wanted a bonus if he played more than 80 minutes.

IfiHadTheWings · Sep 12, 2023

alfie103 said:
Well that shows what the player's priorities were.

It is pretty ridiculous though if true.

when win bonuses are common in football i'd expect players would be pissed at having to beat the top teams by 2 clear goals to achieve them.

it sounds farfetched in isolation but with Senor Levy at the helm it is believable at the same time

jurgen11 · Sep 12, 2023

How much money do these fuckers want - win something and get a bonus, not game by game - do they get an extra two quid for scoring a header like I did when I played... aged 11

newbie · Sep 12, 2023

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
Good point.

I think the issue is that online debate typically provoke people to post with hyperbole and extremes. This ends up triggering people on both sides of the debate so they end up making counterpoints using hyperbole and extremes, either to present a totally alternative perspective, or as some kind of onemanupship. As you say this just means any 'debate', in this case about Levy, just becomes a circular shouting match with a total lack of nuance and balance.

When the facts are - and everyone knows it as much as fans are entrenched in their views - Levy makes both good decisions and bad decisions, like every other chairman. He deserves as much praise as he deserves criticism. If you asked every fan of each club, bar the financially doped ones, you'll find they will be split on their opinions of their ownership - especially those owners that have been at the helm of their club for an extended period of time and have taken in the natural highs and lows of club ownership.

My gripe was

Transfers, I’m cool with tight budgets, but we lost our heads and sign to many duds on to much money actually wages where the issue

I actually think if we keep FP and our head scout we start to look like a well run club, our signings are starting to look very good, we look like we are thinking about the future.

However we are a few injuries away from Ange having a very very hard job

Let’s say Dorrington or Phillips start getting game time, will levy back Ange and say he will get the time, we are building for the future, it’s my fault we didn’t get a CB?

alfie103 · Sep 12, 2023

IfiHadTheWings said:
It is pretty ridiculous though if true.

when win bonuses are common in football i'd expect players would be pissed at having to beat the top teams by 2 clear goals to achieve them.

it sounds farfetched in isolation but with Senor Levy at the helm it is believable at the same time

I would hope the players cared more about actually winning games of football considering they already get a substantial guaranteed weekly wage

spursfan77 · Sep 12, 2023

Ben Foster seems a bit of a bellend when you watch his show. I saw one where he said he and footballers didnt want to be bothered by strangers and fans when they are out and about. Fair enough if fans are rude but a passing smile or hi doesnt hurt.

That thing about bonuses just sounds made up.

Japhet · Sep 12, 2023

newbie said:
My gripe was

Transfers, I’m cool with tight budgets, but we lost our heads and sign to many duds on to much money actually wages where the issue

I actually think if we keep FP and our head scout we start to look like a well run club, our signings are starting to look very good, we look like we are thinking about the future.

However we are a few injuries away from Ange having a very very hard job

Let’s say Dorrington or Phillips start getting game time, will levy back Ange and say he will get the time, we are building for the future, it’s my fault we didn’t get a CB?

We are a few injuries away from a tough time, but we're also playing once a week til the January window which really isn't far off. Fingers crossed.

Trix · Sep 12, 2023

jurgen11 said:
How much money do these fuckers want - win something and get a bonus, not game by game - do they get an extra two quid for scoring a header like I did when I played... aged 11

I actually hate individual performance bonuses personally at all levels, but especially for junior football. You'd have been dropped if you were getting paid by your parents to score in any of the teams that I coached. I used to make the kids and parents sign contracts relating to behaviour and attendance etc, and paying their kids to score etc was one of the criteria that was an absolute deal breaker. If any of you are parents of young players, or coaches of youth teams you should thoroughly discourage this as early as possible.

IfiHadTheWings · Sep 12, 2023

jurgen11 said:
How much money do these fuckers want - win something and get a bonus, not game by game - do they get an extra two quid for scoring a header like I did when I played... aged 11

I remember seeing Tevez’ leaked payslip when he was one of the early 100k a week earners and he had a £1500 goal bonus, it’s ridiculous really.

Like Harry Redknapp said “The players agent came back and said his client wants a goal bonus, Harry said “well i ain’t paying you 100 grand a week to miss em”

Hoopspur · Sep 13, 2023

Haven’t got a clue where to post this….

Kevin Nolan on talkSPORT now. Spurs were the closest to signing him (and didn’t) over any other club he played for. Martin Jol was the manager at the time. For some reason it didn’t happen.

JacoZA · Sep 14, 2023

bomberH said:
Sorry if already posted but this did make me laugh. From Mr Gold:

Ben Foster:

One of the lads, Danny Rose, was at Tottenham and Daniel Levy is so famously known for being an absolute businessman, brutal, ruthless businessman. Apparently their bonus schedule, their bonus payments were almost impossible to achieve, almost impossible," claimed the goalkeeper.

"To actually get paid a bonus, you would only get it for beating one of the big boys, one of the top six teams. So you're talking a Manchester City, Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, and apparently, I swear on my life, this is what he said to me, you've got to beat them by two clear goals as well. [1-0] it's not enough mate, you ain't getting that bonus. Winning games, they expect you to win games as Tottenham manager, at Tottenham apparently.

"To get the bonus you have to obliterate your opponent. You have to beat Man City 2-0, 3-0 to get that bonus payment which is bonkers. I was saying 'Rosey, there's no chance, that's impossible'.

"He was just saying 'I know Fozzy, I know'. He said there was one time they were winning 2-0 and in the last minute they conceded a goal and everyone was looking at each thinking 'OK come on lads we've missed out on the bonus', and they've still won the big game."

I dont see the problem here. You come to Tottenham, your job is to win games. You don’t get a bonus for doing your job. You get a bonus for reaching stretch goals. If you think you deserve a bonus just for winning, then I don’t think you’re the kind of player I’d want to be playing for us.

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