ENIC - The Poll

Dazzazzad · Jan 27, 2023

vegassd said:
I agree that we need to keep spending, and I agree that we are still making questionable signings. But we're also making some very good signings. So I would say it's wrong to focus only on the negative stuff - we should look at both. Last summer was certainly not a case of "largely last minute" - it was the polar opposite.

Honestly, I don't care about Arsenal having a larger net spend since 2018. It doesn't matter. Net spend is a useless metric to be judging anything on, and the more anybody does it, the weaker their argument looks in my opinion.

Ignoring net spend, I think Arsenal a good example of what you can achieve with patience and consistency. If you polled Arsenal fans early last season about Arteta and Kroenke I think the vast majority would say they want them out. If we stick with Conte and back him more than just financially, I would expect we will be playing better over the next couple of seasons as well.

There are clearly questions about Conte hanging around, and questions about if Levy/Paratici are going to back him in all respects. Personally I'm skeptical about the backing, but have to admit that the last couple of windows have been more good than bad.

This reminds me of the Three Lions song... "30 years of hurt" implies that England fans were in some sort of agony the day after winning the World Cup. It's all a bit mad!

I think that "20 years of failure" suggests we have been bouncing around the lower leagues, all the while spending endless billions on players. Nobody can deny the trophy haul in the last 20 years, but we also can't deny that the team has come pretty close to winning more. The owners don't kick the ball... all they can influence is getting a playing staff who can compete. Ours have - not as much as we would all like, but they definitely have.

FWIW, had we won the CL and a couple of FA Cups along the way, I wouldn't actually rate ENIC any higher than I do currently. I tend to judge them on the long-term stuff, not what happened in any individual match. If we got new owners today I think they would have to be judged by our on-field competitiveness, and I also think ENIC should be judged primarily on that from now as well. The boring stuff is done, they now need to get on with the fun stuff.

Well said and it saved me replying to "20 years of failure" so I thank you from the bottom of my heart ?

Neon_Knight_ · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
Where there’s failure there’s always excuses and no different here, the ENIC apologists can always find one. Now it’s the long term loan we have to pay back at 30m a year? So 20 years before the stadium was because of it now the 30 years after too? So wait 50 years then judge them. ?

Don’t know why I bother in here, 20 years of failure with no end in sight yet still fans that will defend them to the hilt, reminds me of trumps comment I could shoot someone and they’d still vote me in…

I wouldn't go as far as to say I've defended them...only found flaws in your arguments against them. Even replacing ENIC / Levy with a new owner wouldn't overcome those flaws in your argument. I think it far more about how we spend, rather than how much we spend. Most of our particularly ambitious (expensive) signings have flopped, so spending more on players of the same ilk clearly wouldn't have helped. New ownership could help with this, but it would require an owner who has more success in appointment of the staff responsible for recruiting our playing squad (DoF*, chief scout etc.), rather than simply an owner who's willing to spend more.

The figures in your earlier post highlight that simply spending more isn't the answer, as there isn't a positive correlation between net spend and results / trophies won. There clearly is a positive correlation between a club (Chelsea / Man City) spending obscene amounts that other clubs could not contend with, but current financial regulations without football prevent a even the wealthiest of prospective owners from achieving rapid success through financial-doping in that way. Chelsea and Man City were both able to get away with 2-3 "misses" in the transfer market for every "hit" during their ascent, but I can't see that being viable for another club in the foreseeable future (Newcastle have spent well, more so than spending big).

*Ongoing legal issues aside, I think Levy got it right with Paratici, after a series of bad mistakes (e.g. Hitchin).

For the love of Spurs · Jan 27, 2023

Things change in life. I have nothing personal against Levy and can appreciate what he is good at but for me to change my mind and not support change at the top I need to see a plan. An actual clear plan on the pitch, this club needs to stop winging it on the pitch.

If we want to be cheap build a project, if we want short term big managers spend the money it take to equip them properly but make a plan! 22 years and still no plan, I mean come on.

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 27, 2023

For the love of Spurs said:
Things change in life. I have nothing personal against Levy and can appreciate what he is good at but for me to change my mind and not support change at the top I need to see a plan. An actual clear plan on the pitch, this club needs to stop winging it on the pitch.

If we want to be cheap build a project, if we want short term big managers spend the money it take to equip them properly but make a plan! 22 years and still no plan, I mean come on.

We have a 5 year plan to come up with a plan...

Neon_Knight_ · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
It would be more meaningful to compare Arsenal's spending and performances during the period when they had stadium debt to our current situation, instead of looking at what they are doing now that their stadium has been fully paid off. That comparison would paint a very different picture. For a fair comparison of the ambition of the two clubs, you'd need to revisit this years down the line.

Based on Transfermarkt data, our net spend on transfers during the 4 years leading up to the stadium opening was approx. £39m (£9.25m per year). Our net spend on transfers during the 4 years since the stadium opened is approx. £374m (£93.5m per year). This almost ten-told increase in net spend suggests that we have become more ambitious in the transfer market since the stadium opened.

How ambitious our spending has been in the last few years is very subjective, but the fact that there has been an increase in spending and ambition is pretty irrefutable. Maybe that increase is from a bar that was far lower than fans would have liked, and has been less significant than fans would have liked, but it is increased ambition nonetheless. I've seen lots of comments (this season and over the past few years) claiming that we aren't showing more ambition / aren't spending more even though that's what was expected following the opening of our new stadium...well that's simply not factual.

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
I wouldn't go as far as to say I've defended them...only found flaws in your arguments against them. Even replacing ENIC / Levy with a new owner wouldn't overcome those flaws in your argument. I think it far more about how we spend, rather than how much we spend. Most of our particularly ambitious (expensive) signings have flopped, so spending more on players of the same ilk clearly wouldn't have helped. New ownership could help with this, but it would require an owner who has more success in appointment of the staff responsible for recruiting our playing squad (DoF*, chief scout etc.), rather than simply an owner who's willing to spend more.

The figures in your earlier post highlight that simply spending more isn't the answer, as there isn't a positive correlation between net spend and results / trophies won. There clearly is a positive correlation between a club (Chelsea / Man City) spending obscene amounts that other clubs could not contend with, but current financial regulations without football prevent a even the wealthiest of prospective owners from achieving rapid success through financial-doping in that way. Chelsea and Man City were both able to get away with 2-3 "misses" in the transfer market for every "hit" during their ascent, but I can't see that being viable for another club in the foreseeable future (Newcastle have spent well, more so than spending big).

*Ongoing legal issues aside, I think Levy got it right with Paratici, after a series of bad mistakes (e.g. Hitchin).

Some fair comments, on that point though how much effect does Levy have on this, he's sets criteria for all signings so can only imagine his criteria for a big signing makes it's harder to get the exact person the manager wants at the exact time, ie a young up and coming star is more of a risk than an established star, but they have lower wages and sell on value... even considering that it's usually haggling up to last minute or even the next window, again not helping the player or the manager to the max. Just other factors of the top of my head to consider...

For the love of Spurs · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
How ambitious our spending has been in the last few years is very subjective, but the fact that there has been an increase in spending and ambition is pretty irrefutable. Maybe that increase is from a bar that was far lower than fans would have liked, and has been less significant than fans would have liked, but it is increased ambition nonetheless. I've seen lots of comments (this season and over the past few years) claiming that we aren't showing more ambition / aren't spending more even though that's what was expected following the opening of our new stadium...well that's simply not factual.

You sign Conte you have got to spend way more than this. He is short term manager, you get him his players he does the job. We have very much spent far more than prior and that is good but we are not spending Pep/Conte levels of cash to bring in the true elites. I have no issue with that but why hire him and not Ten Hag or someone, we can’t dine at the top table unless we match top table prices. The plan doesn’t fit the recruitment, it’s still clueless. That is my issue. I could keep the ENIC model if Levy was moved away from the football and we got a football expert to build a plan like Brighton have, like Brentford have and sadly like Arsenal have.

TonyK · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
It would be more meaningful to compare Arsenal's spending and performances during the period when they had stadium debt to our current situation, instead of looking at what they are doing now that their stadium has been fully paid off. That comparison would paint a very different picture. For a fair comparison of the ambition of the two clubs, you'd need to revisit this years down the line.

Based on Transfermarkt data, our net spend on transfers during the 4 years leading up to the stadium opening was approx. £39m (£9.25m per year). Our net spend on transfers during the 4 years since the stadium opened is approx. £374m (£93.5m per year). This almost ten-told increase in net spend suggests that we have become more ambitious in the transfer market since the stadium opened.

No mate, you just need to look at the respective trophy cabinets since Levy arrived.

TonyK · Jan 27, 2023

If we manage to get Porro over the line, you can bet that Conte will not be around next season (for whatever reason) after us having signed 2 decent wing backs in Porro and Udogie to play in his preferred system. Levy will then appoint yet another manager who will probably prefer a straight back four and it will be back to square one again.

That’s exactly why I have a lot of sympathy for Emerson Royal who is good defensively and was brought in under Nuno to play in a 442. Next thing, AC has arrived and Emerson is expected to change his game to a wing back overnight.

The lack of planning at the club is shocking!

Neon_Knight_ · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
Some fair comments, on that point though how much effect does Levy have on this, he's sets criteria for all signings so can only imagine his criteria for a big signing makes it's harder to get the exact person the manager wants at the exact time, ie a young up and coming star is more of a risk than an established star, but they have lower wages and sell on value... even considering that it's usually haggling up to last minute or even the next window, again not helping the player or the manager to the max. Just other factors of the top of my head to consider...

Ndombele was wanted by Poch and his team for 1-2 years before we signed him.
Lo Celso was reportedly chosen over Bruno Fernandes - again, not a Levy decision.
Levy gets flak for Sissoko, but again I think Poch actually wanted him.

Of course there are lots of examples of Levy failing to give a manager the players they want / need. For example:
Modric sold, then not only did Levy fail to sign the manager's first-choice replacements (Moutinho), but he failed to sign any playmaker / progressive passer...despite this being fundamental to the manger's system.
Berbatov sold on deadline day, with Frazier Campbell loaned in as his replacement.

If we get Porro this month, I think it would be difficult to be particularly critical of our transfer activity since Conte joined.

southlondonyiddo · Jan 27, 2023

RuskyM said:
Mate, we lost to a team who's manager was in prison. We weren't going to beat City.

Yeah you’re right Ryan Mason was a good shout to lead us out in a Wembley Cup Final

vegassd · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
I would have viewed them completely differently had we backed Poch summer 18 or even Jan 19 and went for it even if we lost, it was about giving yourself the best chance, we had Sissoko and Winks in midfield and were always major underdogs.

I think this is where fans expectations took a turn away from what the club was up to.

Poch said that his task (set by the club) was to manage the team on a budget whilst the stadium was built, then once it was open the target was to qualify for the CL. He wasn't expected to win anything during those years. If your personal expectation was to have a team capable of winning the CL during that period, then it's your expectation that was wrong.

So truly, I understand that with hindsight it looks like a bit more player spending at specific points would have given us a better chance to win something, and I'm sure it would have done. But in context, if that spending was not available at that time then it's the wrong thing to make a judgement on in my view.

If we simply say that the club wasn't targeting a CL win in the 18/19 season, you would be justified in saying that shows a lack of ambition. However, if we say that the club wasn't targeting the win then because it was spending on a stadium that would see better long-term competitiveness, then I personally believe that is actually more ambition. But I know lots of fans see that differently.

SirNiNyHotspur said:
I was at a Spurs bar downtown DC for it, amazing craic before the match, I remember thinking when it kicked off just don't let us concede an early goal so I can enjoy the 1st half at least... Truth was we had too many weak links and were fortunate to get to the final, it's another what could have been with ENIC...

That must have been early afternoon right? Dangerours levels of drinking - I love it!!

I totally agree that we were lucky to reach that final. It almost feels like it didn't happen at all because it was so unbelievable. I reckon that whole era under Poch raised all our expectations... and if we could perform that well without the new stadium, surely we would be blowing people away with the stadium. The reality is probably that the stadium just keeps us in the neighbourhood in the long run, and it is going to take time and planning to bring the squad back to a title challenging level.

There's still a bit of time left in this transfer window to try and pull a rabbit out the hat I guess, but this January hasn't felt like it's building on the last 2 windows.

Neon_Knight_ · Jan 27, 2023

TonyK said:
No mate, you just need to look at the respective trophy cabinets since Levy arrived.

When Levy arrived:
Arsenal was consistently challenging to win (and sometimes winning) the PL, while we were not even close.
Arsenal was consistently qualifying for the CL, while we were not even close.

Since ENIC took over, the gap between us and Arsenal got smaller and even disappeared for about a decade (until this season).

Arsenal was not competitive or ambitious while paying off their stadium. Wenger repeatedly stated that finishing 4th was "as good as winning a trophy" during an extended period where they showed no ambition to do any better than 4th in the league. That lack of ambition eventually led to an extended period of consecutive seasons without CL football. ?‍

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
Ndombele was wanted by Poch and his team for 1-2 years before we signed him.
Lo Celso was reportedly chosen over Bruno Fernandes - again, not a Levy decision.
Levy gets flak for Sissoko, but again I think Poch actually wanted him.

Of course there are lots of examples of Levy failing to give a manager the players they want / need. For example:
Modric sold, then not only did Levy fail to sign the manager's first-choice replacements (Moutinho), but he failed to sign any playmaker / progressive passer...despite this being fundamental to the manger's system.
Berbatov sold on deadline day, with Frazier Campbell loaned in as his replacement.

If we get Porro this month, I think it would be difficult to be particularly critical of our transfer activity since Conte joined.

I don't think Conte is happy at all with our CB situation, the amount we've been leaking he can't be. Lenglet loan with Dier, Davies and Sanchez still around smells like Levy. He didn't want Spence at all, Bissouma not getting much time so possibly didn't want him either and said we lack players that can get past the player so still much room for improvement. Also in summer we bought early, Conte message of the importance of doing business early got through, but January we have reverted back too most important is saving few pennies last minute vs helping manager win 3 games we lost in January, again smells like Levy. Definitely room for some criticism Porro or not.

As for past, Ndombele as said long wait before signing, we don't know how much Levy's criteria effects which players the manager chooses as he had young sell on value attached.
Lo Celso I think you're right, Poch's choice, but again what criteria has to be met by Levy before a manager chooses.
Only heard Levy wanted Sissoko, nothing about Poch.

Good examples of major failures regarding Modric and Berbatov.

Neon_Knight_ · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
I don't think Conte is happy at all with our CB situation, the amount we've been leaking he can't be. Lenglet loan with Dier, Davies and Sanchez still around smells like Levy. He didn't want Spence at all, Bissouma not getting much time so possibly didn't want him either and said we lack players that can get past the player so still much room for improvement. Also in summer we bought early, Conte message of the importance of doing business early got through, but January we have reverted back too most important is saving few pennies last minute vs helping manager win 3 games we lost in January, again smells like Levy. Definitely room for some criticism Porro or not.

As for past, Ndombele as said long wait before signing, we don't know how much Levy's criteria effects which players the manager chooses as he had young sell on value attached.
Lo Celso I think you're right, Poch's choice, but again what criteria has to be met by Levy before a manager chooses.
Only heard Levy wanted Sissoko, nothing about Poch.

Good examples of major failures regarding Modric and Berbatov.

Poch repeatedly said Sissoko was important to us because he was our best player in transition (between attack and defence).

bc205 · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
would have viewed them completely differently had we backed Poch summer 18 or even Jan 19

Why are people still trying to make this argument? It's well documented by now that Poch's main target was De Jong that summer, and that the club tried their best to get him. De Jong has publicly confirmed that. The club can't back the manager if his only target doesn't want to come to Spurs.

Frenkie de Jong admits he nearly joined Tottenham before Barcelona move

New Barcelona signing Frenkie de Jong has revealed he was tempted to join Tottenham last summer.

www.skysports.com

The next summer, when Poch's main midfield target was available, we spent a club record fee to get him.

There are plenty of valid sticks to beat ENIC with without just making stuff up.

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 27, 2023

bc205 said:
Why are people still trying to make this argument? It's well documented by now that Poch's main target was De Jong that summer, and that the club tried their best to get him. De Jong has publicly confirmed that. The club can't back the manager if his only target doesn't want to come to Spurs.

Frenkie de Jong admits he nearly joined Tottenham before Barcelona move

New Barcelona signing Frenkie de Jong has revealed he was tempted to join Tottenham last summer.

www.skysports.com

The next summer, when Poch's main midfield target was available, we spent a club record fee to get him.

There are plenty of valid sticks to beat ENIC with without just making stuff up.

How do you know we tried our best? It says he considered the offer, maybe he knew he could get higher wages elsewhere? Show me a report on what wages he was offered. Was a fee even agreed? If so show me the report? There's many examples of Levy moving goalposts last minute, did he really want to spend that then nothing, maybe he wanted a Rivaldo letter? You're filling in alot of blanks yourself with your own bias. Also people have come to viewpont that ENIC don't back their managers over years and many managers as examples, not one report on sky sports about one transfer, where so many variables aren't discussed, and there's no way Poch was happy getting nobody in 18 and little in Jan 19, he said as much in the fall, don't think he was mad at De Jong with all his quotes...

On you're last point as you seem so eager to defend ENIC interested to hear your valid sticks?

Finchyid · Jan 27, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
When Levy arrived:
Arsenal was consistently challenging to win (and sometimes winning) the PL, while we were not even close.
Arsenal was consistently qualifying for the CL, while we were not even close.

Since ENIC took over, the gap between us and Arsenal got smaller and even disappeared for about a decade (until this season).

Arsenal was not competitive or ambitious while paying off their stadium. Wenger repeatedly stated that finishing 4th was "as good as winning a trophy" during an extended period where they showed no ambition to do any better than 4th in the league. That lack of ambition eventually led to an extended period of consecutive seasons without CL football. ?‍

Arsenal haven't been in the champions league for 6 years

DiVaio · Jan 27, 2023

SirNiNyHotspur said:
How do you know we tried our best? It says he considered the offer, maybe he knew he could get higher wages elsewhere? Show me a report on what wages he was offered. Was a fee even agreed? If so show me the report? There's many examples of Levy moving goalposts last minute, did he really want to spend that then nothing, maybe he wanted a Rivaldo letter? You're filling in alot of blanks yourself with your own bias. Also people have come to viewpont that ENIC don't back their managers over years and many managers as examples, not one report on sky sports about one transfer, where so many variables aren't discussed, and there's no way Poch was happy getting nobody in 18 and little in Jan 19, he said as much in the fall, don't think he was mad at De Jong with all his quotes...

On you're last point as you seem so eager to defend ENIC interested to hear your valid sticks?

Do you really know every detail what happened about Stratford, in Jan 2012, in Jan 2016 or in Summer 2018 to criticize Levy then? I'm really not sure this is good way for you to make this argument

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 27, 2023

DiVaio said:
Do you really know every detail what happened about Stratford, in Jan 2012, in Jan 2016 or in Summer 2018 to criticize Levy then? I'm really not sure this is good way for you to make this argument

When many negative things happen with the same people the same way some form opinions a certain way, others stick their head in the sand and we discuss that on forums...

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