Race for The Top 10

Shadydan · Jun 28, 2020

ILS said:
Yes it is worth the hassle for a club that has won sod all since 2008.

We need to be realistic and this isn't the premier League when both us and Leicester were going for it. Utd were in disarray, Pepe had just arrived. Klopp was building his team. This is the premier League where Liverpool are setting new records, City will come firing back next season with a couple defensive additions, Utd are two players away from being back up there, Chelsea have a very good team. Wolves are only going get better. Apart from our front three and Lo Celso the rest of our 11 are miles off the quality we had back in 2016/17.

We need to be realistic as to the level we are currently at and what is achievable. I generally believe unless we win something next season, Kane is going to hand in a transfer request and end up a Utd and then we start all over again. Just by finishing top four isn't going to keep him. He needs to see progression by winning a trophy not by finishng fourth again and even then we do not spend the levels.of money compared to our rivals which has happened every year we have been in the champions League.

So we're not going to improve compared to our rivals? Our players aren't going to get better nor will we add any reinforcements that will make us a stronger outfit whist our rivals are all going to simultaneously pull away from us? If this is the level you expect us to maintain then I can understand why we're having this debate, you're not thinking big enough.

Again we have 2 chances to win domestic trophies, that means not playing a Thursday/Sunday schedule thus allowing us to maintain focus on the league, less travel and far less rounds and matches to play. You make it seen like we're set in stone to win the Europa, if it was that easy we would have made a dent in the competition and come a lot more closer to QF appearances and I think Jose will get a lot more working with the squad during the week whilst our rivals are playing European football next season.

Your entire argument falls on us winning the competition like it's an absolute guarantee, as I mentioned before we have a better chance of winning a domestic trophy why are we discounting them like they don't exist?

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
So we're not going to improve compared to our rivals? Our players aren't going to get better nor will we add any reinforcements that will make us a stronger outfit whist our rivals are all going to simultaneously pull away from us? If this is the level you expect us to maintain then I can understand why we're having this debate, you're not thinking big enough.

Again we have 2 chances to win domestic trophies, that means not playing a Thursday/Sunday schedule thus allowing us to maintain focus on the league, less travel and far less rounds and matches to play. You make it seen like we're set in stone to win the Europa, if it was that easy we would have made a dent in the competition and come a lot more closer to QF appearances and I think Jose will get a lot more working with the squad during the week whilst our rivals are playing European football next season.

Your entire argument falls on us winning the competition like it's an absolute guarantee, as I mentioned before we have a better chance of winning a domestic trophy why are we discounting them like they don't exist?

If you go back to my original post it was clearly about not disrespecting the Europa League and people who just dismiss it. We have more chance of winning the Europa League competition then the Premier League and probably the other two cup competitions as well, as it doesn't involve Liverpool, Man City or Chelsea.

I think we should go to win all four competitions and Jose will think that to. Kane won't have to play in the group stages so that is 6 games less he would have to play before Xmas then if we were in The Champions league, so maybe we will be up the league challenging.

I just don't get the arrogance to write of a competition that the three most successful teams in this country over the last twenty years have all won during that period.

doctor stefan Freud · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
So we're not going to improve compared to our rivals? Our players aren't going to get better nor will we add any reinforcements that will make us a stronger outfit whist our rivals are all going to simultaneously pull away from us? If this is the level you expect us to maintain then I can understand why we're having this debate, you're not thinking big enough.

Again we have 2 chances to win domestic trophies, that means not playing a Thursday/Sunday schedule thus allowing us to maintain focus on the league, less travel and far less rounds and matches to play. You make it seen like we're set in stone to win the Europa, if it was that easy we would have made a dent in the competition and come a lot more closer to QF appearances and I think Jose will get a lot more working with the squad during the week whilst our rivals are playing European football next season.

Your entire argument falls on us winning the competition like it's an absolute guarantee, as I mentioned before we have a better chance of winning a domestic trophy why are we discounting them like they don't exist?

I understand the allure of playing in another cup competition and getting to watch us on the tv more, but the Europa Cup is an absolute bastard cup to play in. I’d rather see us do as you say, concentrate on a top four and the domestic cups, without the fatigue inducing grind of the EL. We should focus all our efforts on getting back into the CL, and we’ve got a much better chance of doing that by not competing in a draining competition like the EL

Shadydan · Jun 28, 2020

ILS said:
If you go back to my original post it was clearly about not disrespecting the Europa League and people who just dismiss it. We have more chance of winning the Europa League competition then the Premier League and probably the other two cup competitions as well, as it doesn't involve Liverpool, Man City or Chelsea.

I think we should go to win all four competitions and Jose will think that to. Kane won't have to play in the group stages so that is 6 games less he would have to play before Xmas then if we were in The Champions league, so maybe we will be up the league challenging.

I just don't get the arrogance to write of a competition that the three most successful teams in this country over the last twenty years have all won during that period.

And we have more chance of finishing top four and winning a domestic trophy than putting all our eggs in the Europa basket

Bolded is where we disagree by the way, how - particularity when there's less matches to play and less travel and we play potentially more difficult fixtures in the EL because we don't know a lot of those teams, at least with the domestic competition we know the relative strengths and weaknesses of our opponents?

Again not being arrogant, just being realistic.

Mr Pink · Jun 28, 2020

Yep top four and domestic cup competitions all the way.

Going all out in Europa league is putting all your eggs in one basket.

It will just affect league performances, and domestic cup competitions...its inevitable.

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Mr Pink said:
Yep top four and domestic cup competitions all the way.

Going all out in Europa league is putting all your eggs in one basket.

It will just affect league performances, and domestic cup competitions...its inevitable.

Yet Jose won the Europa League, League Cup and finished second with an average Utd team. You manage your squad properly and you can attack on all four fronts.

Shadydan · Jun 28, 2020

ILS said:
Yet Jose won the Europa League, League Cup and finished second with an average Utd team. You manage your squad properly and you can attack on all four fronts.

That was based over 2 different seasons, they won the EL and LC in 2016/17 where they finished 6th and in 2017/18 they finished 2nd.

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
And we have more chance of finishing top four and winning a domestic trophy than putting all our eggs in the Europa basket Bolded is where we disagree by the way, how - particularity when there's less matches to play and less travel and we play potentially more difficult fixtures in the EL because we don't know a lot of those teams, at least with the domestic competition we know the relative strengths and weaknesses of our opponents?

Again not being arrogant, just being realistic.

Being realistic is understanding your managers mentality and his history. Jose wins European competitions. He likes winning European Competitions so if we are in it, he is going for it so really your opinion is not realistic it is just an opinion of someone out of touch with the manager at the helm.

Jose teams do not play like Poch's teams with a high press and requires maximum intensity. He either plays counterattack or slow progressive so playing on a Thursday and a Sunday is not going to have the same impact as previous spurs teams.

Understand your manager and get on board.

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
That was based over 2 different seasons, they won the EL and LC in 2016/17 where they finished 6th and in 2017/18 they finished 2nd.

Well I apologies for getting wrong but he still won the league cup and Europa League and qualified for the champions League.

thebenjamin · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
The Europa League is a shit competition, it's nothing to do with arrogance, it's about being realistic to our goals and where we see ourselves as a club, we see ourselves as a Champions League club and we want to give ourselves the best and most realistic opportunity of qualifying for the CL. We actually have 4 opportunities for qualifying for the comp as opposed to one which requires a dose of more luck than a league campaign because it's a cup comp.

And why do people constantly talk about winning the competition and qualifying for CL like we are absolutely guaranteed that's going to happen? We were meant to win in 2016 after we dropped out of CL, what happened there?, even previous seasons where we've been amongst the favs but all we're conjured up is a measly QF appearance in recent years... yes we know it gives us a back door into the CL but so does finishing top 4 which is far less risk if you're paying in the PL with no European distraction and we've constantly seen teams do well in the Premier League who don't have the distraction of playing in Europe. If you really want a distraction at least the CL is a worthy one and at least if lends favorably to your domestic campaign as far as scheduling a travel go.

You want us to win a trophy? We have a far better chance of winning one of the domestic cups, at least you have adequate rest between matches and there's less rounds to play.

Good luck winning a domestic cup next season if City are banned from Europe.

Shadydan · Jun 28, 2020

ILS said:
Being realistic is understanding your managers mentality and his history. Jose wins European competitions. He likes winning European Competitions so if we are in it, he is going for it so really your opinion is not realistic it is just an opinion of someone out of touch with the manager at the helm.

Jose teams do not play like Poch's teams with a high press and requires maximum intensity. He either plays counterattack or slow progressive so playing on a Thursday and a Sunday is not going to have the same impact as previous spurs teams.

Understand your manager and get on board.

Huh, I'm just giving you my opinion on what I'd prefer us to do not what Jose is likely to do mate. I think your realism is more likely your fanaticism that doesn't take into account the club's current standing and factual evidence regarding the distraction the EL gives you.

So now you're championing Jose's achievements and his mentality and history yet before you said we're not going to get any closer to our rivals domestically, make up your mind. If you know Jose then he's likely to have us challenging for the league in his 2nd season in which he has history doing that.

He also has a far better record of winning domestic trophies over European ones so maybe it's you who needs to understand our manager and get on board (y)

Shadydan · Jun 28, 2020

ILS said:
Well I apologies for getting wrong but he still won the league cup and Europa League and qualified for the champions League.

Which has absolutely no bearing on the argument being put forward.

mr ashley · Jun 28, 2020

There are so many flaws in the argument about avoiding European football, in order to focus our efforts on.... qualifying for European football.
Of course, the CL is a bigger draw than the EL. And of course, we’d all want us to win a domestic trophy too.
The problem with this debate is it puts people into camps of either/ or. But that misses the point of the situation. If you win the league, the challenge for the following season is to
A) retain the league and
B) win the champions league
To do so, you have to manage the squad well enough to compete on both fronts. The only reason teams struggle is when they don’t have the squad depth to do so.
It’s a shame that the argument is muddied by the examples of Chelsea and Leicester.
Chelsea’s league win with no European football was a direct result of their underperforming season beforehand when the players fell out with Jose. That squad should have been competing on both fronts. Once they got back into the CL they dropped back down the league in seasons following.
Leicesters season was a total fluke, but also shows that it’s hard to compete on both fronts if you don’t strengthen your squad ( remember they did nothing in the CL or the league in the season afterwards).
The argument about travel is hard to be certain on. You are just as likely to get a CL group of PSG, benfica and galatasaray as you are to get an EL group of Genk, Braga and CSKA Moscow.
The Thursday /Sunday argument is more to do with fan disruption than it is player disruption. I get it- if you go to every game then getting home late on a Sunday is a real pisser. But that’s not going to be the same for players, who have training scheduled around games, and matches moved to allow sufficient rest.
Personally, I think this argument was originally a PR sound bite used by Harry to show Levy that he needed to invest in the squad more. And once we became a strong enough team to break into the CL, and challenge for the league, this is where we cocked it up. It goes back to the summer of no investment, which was totally and utterly unforgivable.
In the modern game, you have to be able to compete in ALL competitions if you have designs on being a big team. You can’t pick and chose.

TLDR: You can’t compete consistently without a strong squad. It’s levy’s fault

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
Huh, I'm just giving you my opinion on what I'd prefer us to do not what Jose is likely to do mate. I think your realism is more likely your fanaticism that doesn't take into account the club's current standing and factual evidence regarding the distraction the EL gives you.

So now you're championing Jose's achievements and his mentality and history yet before you said we're not going to get any closer to our rivals domestically, make up your mind. If you know Jose then he's likely to have us challenging for the league in his 2nd season in which he has history doing that.

He also has a far better record of winning domestic trophies over European ones so maybe it's you who needs to understand our manager and get on board

This is not second season though. It is his first full season coming up with the players he wants and trust me he will be saying the same thing.

I want us to win everything including the Europa League if we are in it. I think we can challenge the top four next season and try and win the other competitions. It you that is saying by going all out with the Europa League is going to stop us progressing in the league which Utd and Wolves are proving you can get in the last 8 and still fight it out for Top Four.

I have just pointed out it is going be very hard to finish top four next season due to he quality of the teams and Jose will see the Europa League (If we qualify) as a very good opportunity to win a trophy and with he added benefit of qualifying for the CL.

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

Shadydan said:
Which has absolutely no bearing on the argument being put forward.

Yes it does; as you said you can't put all your eggs in one basket with the Europa League. Jose did that towards the end of the season and won it , so finishing 6th in the league became irrelevant.

I'm not even a massive Jose fan but I understand him which clearly by writing of Europa League you don't.

dontcallme · Jun 28, 2020

mr ashley said:
There are so many flaws in the argument about avoiding European football, in order to focus our efforts on.... qualifying for European football.
Of course, the CL is a bigger draw than the EL. And of course, we’d all want us to win a domestic trophy too.
The problem with this debate is it puts people into camps of either/ or. But that misses the point of the situation. If you win the league, the challenge for the following season is to
A) retain the league and
B) win the champions league
To do so, you have to manage the squad well enough to compete on both fronts. The only reason teams struggle is when they don’t have the squad depth to do so.
It’s a shame that the argument is muddied by the examples of Chelsea and Leicester.
Chelsea’s league win with no European football was a direct result of their underperforming season beforehand when the players fell out with Jose. That squad should have been competing on both fronts. Once they got back into the CL they dropped back down the league in seasons following.
Leicesters season was a total fluke, but also shows that it’s hard to compete on both fronts if you don’t strengthen your squad ( remember they did nothing in the CL or the league in the season afterwards).
The argument about travel is hard to be certain on. You are just as likely to get a CL group of PSG, benfica and galatasaray as you are to get an EL group of Genk, Braga and CSKA Moscow.
The Thursday /Sunday argument is more to do with fan disruption than it is player disruption. I get it- if you go to every game then getting home late on a Sunday is a real pisser. But that’s not going to be the same for players, who have training scheduled around games, and matches moved to allow sufficient rest.
Personally, I think this argument was originally a PR sound bite used by Harry to show Levy that he needed to invest in the squad more. And once we became a strong enough team to break into the CL, and challenge for the league, this is where we cocked it up. It goes back to the summer of no investment, which was totally and utterly unforgivable.
In the modern game, you have to be able to compete in ALL competitions if you have designs on being a big team. You can’t pick and chose.

TLDR: You can’t compete consistently without a strong squad. It’s levy’s fault

I think point is more about where your squad is at the time.

Right now we don’t have a strong squad. We have good players but several are new to the prem, several are on a decline and if we simply buy numerous players we will be stronger in numbers but in the short term won’t be so strong.

At the moment I don’t think we are strong enough to compete in 4 competitions. If we do, we’ll fail in each.

mr ashley · Jun 28, 2020

dontcallme said:
I think point is more about where your squad is at the time.

Right now we don’t have a strong squad. We have good players but several are new to the prem, several are on a decline and if we simply buy numerous players we will be stronger in numbers but in the short term won’t be so strong.

At the moment I don’t think we are strong enough to compete in 4 competitions. If we do, we’ll fail in each.

Yes, we’ve proved that this season.
Maybe a better way of looking at it would be to ask: would you prefer either
A) a Leicester style one season wonder league win,
Or
B) a win that is followed up by further success in the style of, say Liverpool ( that’s maybe the best example I can think of in recent memory).
I know we have to disregard the comparisons to oligarch teams.
And I appreciate that , right now, a Leicester style win would be absolutely fantastic!

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

dontcallme said:
I think point is more about where your squad is at the time.

Right now we don’t have a strong squad. We have good players but several are new to the prem, several are on a decline and if we simply buy numerous players we will be stronger in numbers but in the short term won’t be so strong.

At the moment I don’t think we are strong enough to compete in 4 competitions. If we do, we’ll fail in each.

At this precise moment no, but let's see what happens in the transfer window before we become all doom and gloom.

dontcallme · Jun 28, 2020

mr ashley said:
Yes, we’ve proved that this season.
Maybe a better way of looking at it would be to ask: would you prefer either
A) a Leicester style one season wonder league win,
Or
B) a win that is followed up by further success in the style of, say Liverpool ( that’s maybe the best example I can think of in recent memory).
I know we have to disregard the comparisons to oligarch teams.
And I appreciate that , right now, a Leicester style win would be absolutely fantastic!

I think next season a big success in a singular competition would be fantastic .

If at the same time we can improve the squad then in following seasons we can compete in multiple competitions.

ILS · Jun 28, 2020

I'm also going to add Liverpool reached the Europa League Final which they lost but it helped build the foundations for them to grow. When Atletico Madrid bet Fulham in the Europa final it them helped build the platform for them to go on and win the league, reach two Champions league finals and a couple more EL.

I just do not get why we disregard this competition.

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